Ashyn: Infodump and Theorizing

[SilverTiger]

THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR STORMLIGHT ARCHIVES, SILENCE DIVINE, AND ARCANUM UNBOUNDED. And I don't know how to make spoiler boxes.

So, Ashyn. The first world from the sun in the Greater Rosharan system, with no [current] Shard and disease-based magic. And a novella (The Silnce Divine, which may be renamed) which will hopefully come out in the next five years or so. There are several theories and some (but not much) information about. Hopefully, this thread can be the base for that theorizing about, and a place to collect all those elusive WoBs.

So first, the major facts:

1. It is the first planet from the sun in the Greater Rosharan System, with no known moons. Humans live there in upside-down, floating cities and farm the few fertile patches.

2. At some point in its history, it suffered a major cataclysm which destroyed most of the planet's surface- hence the few fertile patches. The reading Brandon did described the surface as burning, lines of red writhing across the surface.

3. It currently has no Shard, although Brandon RAFO'd a question on if it used to have a Shard.

4. The magic system is disease based. The diseases grant certain magical abilities, with prophecy and flight/floating being shown in the story.

Second, the [major] theories:

1. The most prominent theory is that Ashyn is the basis for the Tranquiline Halls in Vorinism on Roshar, which, if true, indicates some contact between the two in the past.

2. Another theory suggests that Cultivation used to live on Ashyn before the cataclysm, and then went to Roshar. The problem with this is that there are people still on Ashyn, so why she would abandon them is unclear.

3. Yet another, not so important theory is that Ashyn is the Reya's Tear star seen from Roshar. Planets do look like especially bright stars if you don't know the difference, so it is possible.

Actually, there is not much talk about Ashyn. Not much information either. Ah well.... My first theory:

1. Ashyn's magic system bears a resemblance to First of the Sun's magic system. Both use symbiosis to grant powers through natural means, unlike the various Shardworld system that we've seen. This indicates that First of the Sun's and Ashyn's magic systems may have been designed by Adonalsium, and therefore predate his Shattering.

2. The Vorin legends on Roshar indicate that Ashyn's cataclysm may have been caused by Odium (the Voidbringers kicked mankind out of the Tranquiline Halls). However, a passing mention of the danger of the diseases in the reading indicates that a disease-granted power may have been the cause.

Any other information or theories? Please post it here!

Here is the transcription:

  [Eelyell?] was awakened by the whispering of the dead child who followed him.

“Haszh betaszh bejzak” The girl’s words were often gibberish, though usually he could make out a few of them. Tonight he couldn’t even understand a single one. Which made the whispering even more eerie.

[Eelyell] sat up in his cot realizing he had fallen asleep in his uniform again. He looked across the darkened room, seeking out the child. There, she hid in the shadows beside the wooden bin that held his canes. Small, maybe four years old, she had long straight blonde hair that hung down by her face, ears peeking out like rocks in the sand.

She met his eyes, “Haszh betazh bejzak,” she whispered. It would be nice when that particular Echo passed.

[Eelyell] rose tugging at his crumpled jacket, still enough of a soldier to feel ashamed at its state. His father would have had [Eelyell]]’s head if he’d seen such a uniform. Climbing from bed [Eelyell] took the cane beside it for support, then walked out onto the balcony. He put his back to the dead child, she was a figment, an echo, a side-effect from an Incubation he’d done a few years back. It was so long ago that he was losing hope that this Echo would ever fade. He might be stuck with a hallucination, for good.

He stepped out onto the balcony, using the cane by habit though he was currently strong enough that he didn’t need it to walk. He was recovering from his Incubation two months back. The grind from that one had finally worn off. In fact he was probably too strong, he’d been getting too much sleep lately, eating too well. He needed to keep a certain level of physical weakness so he could be open to Incubations, assuming he wanted to remain effective in his duties. And he did want to remain effective, for his own reasons, if not for the Corps themselves.

Outside on the balcony, the sky burned. It smoldered high above, deep red lines, the color of a serpent’s tongue, like rips in the air. The magma cast a warm red light across the city of [suigmaat]. As always the air smelled faintly of smoke, though he only noticed it when he was first stepping out of the building into the open air. He knew logically that the burning place he saw above was actually the ground. He knew [suigmaat] flew in the air, a city reversed, one of the few bastions of life left in the burning land. [Eelyell] was the one who was upside-down, as were all of the city’s inhabitants. It didn’t feel that way to him, he’d lived here too long. Upward was towards the burning ground and the land, downwards was toward the sky and the sun. Things he never saw except on the rare occasion he was called upon to visit the farms and orchards on the city’s sunward side.

[Eelyell] stood for a time, holding to the cast-iron railing, staring up at the burning swathes high above. Molten rivers, a land destroyed. A warning flag, raised to them all. Omnipresent. Undeniable. The city itself slept beneath that scarlet glare, bathed in red.

“Hiszh betaszh druk,” the girl whispered from behind. She’d crawled out onto the balcony and now sat there looking up at the air.

[Eelyell] glanced at her, “Kareem’s gaze you’re a creepy one,” he whispered, “What must I do to be rid of you?”

“Hiszh beaszh diruk.”

He tapped his finger on the railing and then strode back into his quarters, splashed some water on his face, and checked the sword blade of his walking cane. Seconds later he was out the door.

The offices of the Corps did not look as a police station should. A police station was supposed to be a box like thing, stable and functional, designed to indicate to all who visited that this was not a place where nonsense was permitted. Those ornamented columns, etched with the silver serpents of [Mokdeelor], those golden doors, those soldiers with ridiculous feathered helms. Those were not the symbols of efficient law-keeping. In [Eelyell]’s opinion they were quite the opposite.

He walked up the steps and approached the guards, who were at least armed with functional halberds and two foot-long pistols at the belt. They saluted him by raising fists to their sides. As an incubator he outranked everyone in this building, except of course the ones who actually mattered. [Eelyell] felt a moment of lightheadedness at the top of the steps and was forced to pause there, gripping the railing and leaning on his cane. So he wasn’t completely well, good. Neither guard stepped to help him, weakness was expected of Incubators, one of the marks of their station and being near one of them at the wrong time could be dangerous. One need only to look upward at the burning land to be reminded of just how dangerous.

When his head cleared, he continued up the steps, cane clicking, and passed the men without returning their salute. He stopped just inside the building however, coming alert. Motion. Lesser watchmen calling to one another in a large room, aides carrying stacks of paper. Red eyes and yawns accompanied both groups. Many of these people had been called up unexpectedly, despite the very early hour.

“[Eelyell]?” A woman rushed up to him through the bustle. [Cual] wore the yellow and blue uniform of an Incubator, like his own but better fitting and far better cut. “You look like ash man,” she said, “Aren’t you still on grind leave?”

[Eelyell] looked back at the hall, reading the motion of the bodies. Nobody was going to the weapon’s locker, though riot gear had been set out to the side. Large metal shields and larger swords cordoned in rubber from trees that grew on the sunward side. The people here were getting ready for something, but he didn’t know what yet. A prophecy, he guessed.

“I still can’t believe they called you up,” [Cual] said, “You deserve some relaxation after--”

“I will visit [Patseepa],” [Eelyell] interupted, striding through the room and leaving [Cual] behind. He tried not to let himself be carried away in the chaos. The event that he was waiting for would come eventually, but this might not be it. [Patseepa] made prophesies with some frequency, that was why the Corps maintained her, and why she carried her terrible burden.

It was difficult not to feel tense however, in the rooms frenzy. Nearby a scribe turned and accidentally knocked over an hourglass, smashing it to the floor and spraying sand across it. He spared the sand a glance, it always drew his attention, but he otherwise ignored it, focussing on a set of doors at the back of the room. This must have been an alarming prophecy in deed to cause such a fuss. The guards at these doors were even more flowery with feathers on their shields after an old fashion style almost no one used any longer. The [Moknee] people were now as advanced a people as [Eelyell] had ever known. His own browning-tan skin and dark hair blended in here well enough that he could have passed more [Moknee] himself, assuming he didn’t open his mouth. Which he was never good at doing.

These guards let him pass too and no scribes or watchmen beset him in the hall beyond. Only Incubators were allowed in here. Unfortunately while they presented a more solemn group, it was no less unruly in its own right. Some two dozen of them clumped together at the other end of the darkened hallway like a clot of hair in a drain. [Eelyell] strode forward passing doors on either side set with glass. The small, well-lit rooms beyond weren’t exactly cells, just like their occupants weren’t exactly prisoners, they just couldn’t leave. With the hallways dark and the rooms lit, each window glowed, like they looked into other worlds. Other worlds inhabited by the sick.

It was hard to think of it that way, after so long in this land. The people in those rooms were not simply ill, they were lay Incubators, their job was to stay in those little rooms, bearing their afflictions until they started to recover. Whereupon another individual would be brought in to catch their malady, ensuring the Incubation itself didn’t vanish. It was good money, assuming you didn’t mind the discomfort, which could range from the sniffles to deadly fevers, depending on the Incubation you agreed to receive. And of course there were... other benefits. In one room he passed the occupant, a young man, hovered in the air, reading a book and in another an elderly woman idly tapped on a cup, changing the color of the liquid inside with each tap. In [suigmaat], in fact on this entire land, every disease also granted a special capacity. That ability lasted as long as the ailment did. Many of these blessings were minor, while others were grand. Some few were very, very dangerous. Hence the existence of the Incubators, and of the Corps itself.

In-depth look at the reading:

The mention of pistols, and the whole floating-city thing, indicates that they may possess some amount of technological advances. However, they are still using swords, helms, and metal shields, so this may be magic-based in nature. It does mention glass doors and rubber, which are fairly recent advancements.

There are only "a few bastions of civilization left", so there are probably not that many floating cities. Also, the food supply probably severely limits population growth. The city "suigmaat" (spelling may be wrong) is one of these, and is home to the Moknee people. The feather decorations and black hair/browning-tan skin may indicate a Native American-esque influence. The other cities possibly possess different cultures and levels of technology.

Sunward side: Indicates that the planet may not be rotating around an axis. May or may not pre-date or have been caused by the global cataclysm.

Edited September 15, 2017 by SilverTiger

[Bean Delphiki]

Which Stormlight Archive books are spoiled here? I'm not reading yet just incase. XD

[SilverTiger]

It talks about stuff from SA, like Vorinism and Odium. And maybe more, eventually.

[Bean Delphiki]

Thanks!

Edited September 13, 2017 by Bean Delphiki

[Fatling]

In Khriss's notes about the Rosharan system in AU she mentions "the famous floating cities". Do we know what that's supposed to mean? Like, famous to whom? I was slightly perplexed by that

[Calderis]

19 minutes ago, Fatling said:

In Khriss's notes about the Rosharan system in AU she mentions "the famous floating cities". Do we know what that's supposed to mean? Like, famous to whom? I was slightly perplexed by that

Most likely among worldhoppers and Silverlight scholars. 

[Fatling]

20 hours ago, SilverTiger said:

Sunward side: Indicates that the planet may not be rotating around an axis. May or may not pre-date or have been caused by the global cataclysm.

Would an hourglass work if the planet didn't rotate around its axis? The gravity of this place seems kind of messed up to me. Like, I imagined if they were living on the upside-down side the reason they don't crash into the planet is because of centrifugal force. But then apparently there's more stuff on the sunward side, and if centrifugal force is holding the guys on the other side down, then centripetal force should be flinging the sunward guys off, right? Also, I'm not sure if I mixed up centripetal and centrifugal or not

[SilverTiger]

59 minutes ago, Fatling said:

Would an hourglass work if the planet didn't rotate around its axis? The gravity of this place seems kind of messed up to me. Like, I imagined if they were living on the upside-down side the reason they don't crash into the planet is because of centrifugal force. But then apparently there's more stuff on the sunward side, and if centrifugal force is holding the guys on the other side down, then centripetal force should be flinging the sunward guys off, right? Also, I'm not sure if I mixed up centripetal and centrifugal or not

I don't know where the hourglass you mentioned came from; and, unfortunately, I don't know enough about physics to answer your questions about gravity. But remember, this is mostly speculation, not fact.

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Fatling said:

Would an hourglass work if the planet didn't rotate around its axis? The gravity of this place seems kind of messed up to me. Like, I imagined if they were living on the upside-down side the reason they don't crash into the planet is because of centrifugal force. But then apparently there's more stuff on the sunward side, and if centrifugal force is holding the guys on the other side down, then centripetal force should be flinging the sunward guys off, right? Also, I'm not sure if I mixed up centripetal and centrifugal or not

The hourglass would be ok in a Planet without rotation.

The only Force Needed to a hourglass to work is gravity

Edited September 14, 2017 by Yata

[Fatling]

9 hours ago, SilverTiger said:

I don't know where the hourglass you mentioned came from

It's in the story:

On 9/13/2017 at 10:39 AM, SilverTiger said:

It was difficult not to feel tense however, in the rooms frenzy. Nearby a scribe turned and accidentally knocked over an hourglass, smashing it to the floor and spraying sand across it. He spared the sand a glance, it always drew his attention, but he otherwise ignored it, focussing on a set of doors at the back of the room.

And don't worry, I'm just speculating for the sake of amusement, trying to wrap my head around the floating cities. Like, are they floating because of physics or because of magic?

7 hours ago, Yata said:

The only Force Needed to a hourglass to work is gravity

My question is whether or not the force they are experiencing is gravity from the city's body or a centrifugal force from the cities orbiting Ashyn or just some magical downward force

[+ILuvHats]

I'm guessing they have some sort of magical way to maintain artificial gravity on the floating cities, especially if they have facilities and people on both the under and over sides of the cities.  I doubt any disease would grant enough power over gravity to affect an entire city, even if a number of dedicated individuals constantly worked at it, so it's all really just speculation

[Yata]

Ok I didn't read anything in Silence Divine except the Little quote of hours and from It they have Gravity and the hourglass would regulary work.

Without an gravitstional acceleration there is no way an object would Smash with the kinetic Energy of a casual contact.

Of course this could be both mondane or magical in nature but we could exclude the centrifugal Force unless they are spinning very very very fast or the Planet is really smaller as there is no mention to the city to be out of the atmosphere.

Here I am making some speculations that could be wrong as se don't know the planet's parameter but I find this the most likely explaination

PS: by the way I didn't know there were Silence Divine's extracts

[Steeldancer]

How the frick do they stay upside down. And flying. This ain't Pandora folks!!!!!

[+Extesian]

Sunward side is just the 'bottom' of the city, no? The previous sentence referred to the sky and sun being 'down' (coz the city is upside down). If the planet didn't rotate (impossible coz of the laws of angular momentum iirc) or if it was tidally locked (is my terminology right?) Then half the planet wouldn't receive sunlight, which sounds unlikely here.

And the cities must work on magic. If they are staying there by physics that means they're in orbit. You would have to have a city going quite ridiculously fast to be in orbit within the atmosphere and presumably would burn up.

Can't wait to see more of Ashyn. I was pumped when Weiry referred to the transcript (which he did).

[ccstat]

@Extesian is right. Just to be clear: there is no way to make these cities work without invoking either magic or far-future sci-fi tech that allows large-scale manipulation of gravity. Given what we've seen of the setting so far, it's got to be magic. (That includes both the ability of the cities to float in the first place, and the local gravity they exhibit that keeps everyone from falling off the upside down half.)

On 9/13/2017 at 1:39 PM, SilverTiger said:

However, a passing mention of the danger of the diseases in the reading indicates that a disease-granted power may have been the cause.

I agree. The implication is that a powerful "Incubation" spread epidemically their the population and the destruction was a result of all those people with an as-yet-unspecified ability.

[Fatling]

15 hours ago, ccstat said:

Extesian is right. Just to be clear: there is no way to make these cities work without invoking either magic or far-future sci-fi tech that allows large-scale manipulation of gravity. Given what we've seen of the setting so far, it's got to be magic. (That includes both the ability of the cities to float in the first place, and the local gravity they exhibit that keeps everyone from falling off the upside down half.)

Agreed. Centrifugal forces was a dumb idea from the beginning and gravity is not the answer, so it has to be magic.

Now that I think about it, Ashyn's magic system seems like a weird flip-flop of Roshar's. We don't know much about the different powers Ashyn's magic grants, but if manipulation of gravity is one then that's potentially similar to powers we've seen on Roshar. The flip-flop is that where stormlight makes you stronger and heals you when you're holding it, Ashyn's magic makes you weaker and sicker. Doesn't seem very fair to me, unless Ashyn's magic is a lot more potent than stormlight

[Blightsong]

Doesn't the magic here, where you obtain sicknesses and gain magic from them, kind of sound like the Old Magic from Roshar? The sickness acts as a curse and the magic as the boon. We know that it is likely that people came in to Roshar from Ashyn after whatever cataclysm happened there, so them calling it the 'old magic' makes sense. There are obvious differences between the two, but (theoretically) any difference could be explained as a function of the magic manifesting slightly differently, like the Dor. I feel like that underlying mechanic isnt a coincidence.

We know that the Nightwatcher is is connected (Connected?) to Cultivation somehow. Maybe Cultivation Invested in Ashyn before Odium presumably came and messed things up. Those pockets of survivability in the form of those very unnatural floating cities feels like it has Cultivation written all over it imo.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Blightsong

[teknopathetic]

Could these cities be based on the Venus Cloud Cities that some have devised? The atmosphere os so thick that building in the clouds makes the most sense? Maybe the atmosphere is very very thick?

 

Still, it seems like this civilization once had incredible fabrial technology, and managed to keep the usage of some of those technologies after the disaster. It seems very likely that this planet was either the Tranquline Halls or a colony of the Tranquiline Halls.  The technology is just to extreme for the place to be younger than the Roshar world.

I wonder how easily a person could travel there from Shadesmaar. Jasnah's magic made it seem like she could pop in and out easily (so she wouldn't need a shard pool). Grabbing technology from Ashyn could be vey useful, and who knows what knowledge they've kept from previous Odium fights. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by teknopathetic

[SilverTiger]

15 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Could these cities be based on the Venus Cloud Cities that some have devised? The atmosphere os so thick that building in the clouds makes the most sense? Maybe the atmosphere is very very thick?

 

Still, it seems like this civilization once had incredible fabrial technology, and managed to keep the usage of some of those technologies after the disaster. It seems very likely that this planet was either the Tranquline Halls or a colony of the Tranquiline Halls.  The technology is just to extreme for the place to be younger than the Roshar world.

I wonder how easily a person could travel there from Shadesmar. Jasnah's magic made it seem like she could pop in and out easily (so she wouldn't need a shard pool). Grabbing technology from Ashyn could be vey useful, and who knows what knowledge they've kept from previous Odium fights. 

There is no shardpool on Ashyn, and there is no evidence that people came to it from Roshar. But the idea that Ashyn and its inhabitants might come into play against Odium in SA is interesting, especially if he was responsible for the Cataclysm.

[ccstat]

27 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

There is no shardpool on Ashyn,

We don't know this, and I think it's unlikely to be true. Khriss mentions the "famous floating cities" in her essay in AU. For the cities to be famous, worldhoppers most visit regularly, and for that there must be a stable perpendicularity. 

[Blightsong]

9 hours ago, ccstat said:

We don't know this, and I think it's unlikely to be true. Khriss mentions the "famous floating cities" in her essay in AU. For the cities to be famous, worldhoppers most visit regularly, and for that there must be a stable perpendicularity. 

While I agree with you, there is a chance that they could study the cities from the CR.

[Toaster Retribution]

I think that there is a connection between Roshar and Ashyn (and Braize). They are all extremely wierd, close to eachother, and there are three Shards waging a war in the neighbourhood. 

The gravity in the city has to be magic. The floating might be the atmosphere (correct me if I'm wrong, I suck at physics) but the gravity has to be magic. I agree with the observations that magic on Ashyn has similarities to what we see on Roshar. Wonder if surges are part of what makes the gravity so wierd. A Windrunner could easily walk around upside-down. Is it possible that the powers on Roshar has influenced Ashyns magic somehow? Or did Ashyn influence Roshar.

I can defenitely see Ashyn being the Tranquiline Halls now (I can see Braize being the Halls too). Either way, I think all these planets will play a role in SA. They seem to be connected.

[SilverTiger]

I have no idea where to find the WoB, but I believe he RAFO'd a question about Ashyn because it will play a role in SA.

[Frostlander]

This seems to be the most prominent Ashyn RAFO:

Quote

INTERVIEW: Mar 12th, 2015

Brandon Sanderson - /r/books AMA March 2015 (Verbatim)

WINDRUNNER17 (REDDIT)

Hey Brandon!

2. Did Ashyn ever have a Shard, or is its magic a natural manifestation akin to Threnody or First of the Sun?

2. RAFO on Ashyn, as--being in the same system as Roshar--there are going to be some spoilers relating to Stormlight in anything I say here.

1

 

[SilverTiger]

2 hours ago, Frostlander said:

This seems to be the most prominent Ashyn RAFO:

 

That's the one I was thinking of. Thanks for finding it, @Frostlander