[OB] Windrunner's 4th Ideal

[Groggins]

Hello, first time poster here and I just had a few thoughts regarding the 4th ideal of the windrunner's with the newest release of Oathbringer chapters.

For the most part the windrunner's ideals have related to the flaws in Kaladin's character that he has to overcome. 

This ideal, I believe, is related to enabling/trusting/inspiring others to protect and not taking on the full burden on your own, as Kaladin's tends to do.

In the case of bridge 4, Kaladin has been able to trust all of them (excluding Moash) with the task of protecting the Kholins, and now they are squires. If not an ideal, then I then I think that "trust" is at the very least the bond that creates squires. 

Chapter 7 confirmed that he imagined Laral as unable to protect herself, and fantasized about coming back to save her. Come to find out she was more than capable on her own. This came of as a shock to him.

I think that Kaladin needs to learn that he is not capable of protecting every one on his own. He is getting close with the fact that he left Hearthstone (and Roshone of all people) to themselves. I fully expect something to come up that will cause him to regret this decision and "fail" as always. (The events at Hearthstone went a little to smoothly, and it makes me suspicious)

I think the ideal would be something like this.

"I will trust others to protect those I can not" 

 

 

[Catladyman]

I like the sound of that!

At this point though, I'm ready to hear the ideals and see some of the orders we haven't met yet!

[Seloun]

I had a similar thought when looking at Kaladin's reaction to the Bridge Four casualties back in WoR.

Quote

Kaladin closed his eyes, breathing out in a hiss. Rod had been one of Lopen’s cousins, a jovial Herdazian who hardly spoke Alethi. Kaladin had barely known him, but the man had still been Bridge Four. Kaladin’s responsibility.

“You can’t protect us all, son,” Teft said. “You can’t stop people from feeling pain, can’t stop men from dying.”

Kaladin opened his eyes, but did not challenge those statements. Not vocally, at least.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1047). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

I thought back then that Kaladin's Next Top Hangup would be knowingly letting someone else sacrifice themselves to protect other people. I think it's entirely possible if not probable that Kaladin being overprotective about someone capable will come back to bite him.

[Xenolith]

I was thinking it could be "I will let others make their own choices." or some similar wording.

[+Extesian]

I will only protect those who need protecting? 

But i do feel it's about leadership

I will lead those who will follow and inspire those who won't?

[Goatbringer]

I think this is a great interpretation. There's been a lot of Kal brooding over what he can and cannot do, and even with his kickass Windrunning he can't save everyone all of the time. Also, are we aware of how many ideals each Order has? I know they'll definitely vary (a la Shallan only needing to speak the first ideal and the subsequent ones being her lies) but are there any WoB that there is a limit to how many ideals each Order has/how many can we expect Kaladin to say before he truly becomes super-saiyan?

[geralt]

I was watching Man of Steel last night and got to this scene (around the 1.23) .

I think something like that would be so fitting, both for the Windrunner order and Kaladin himself. Inspiring others, leading them and being their hope in a time of darkness is exactly what's needed in a desolation and it would be quite ironic for Kaladin, who's always been the one needing to be motivated (by Tien and Syl), to be the one to do so

Edited September 13, 2017 by geralt

[Hyarmenatan]

I find this theory very plausable, but maybe as the 5th ideal as this, for me, looks a like complete trait of a full radiant - establishing a chain of command full of people who trust each other without a hesitation. 'Teft, I know you can do as good or even better than me - please protect those people on my behalf'.

The 4th Ideal, as I imagine it, is widening the protection even on someone who threatens / potentially threatens Kal and humanity, like Parshmen / Parshendi not in the form of power. They potentially can become a disaster to the Roshar, but they are not yet. I can easily see Kaladin protecting Parshmen / Parshendi from the genocide or lynch perfomed by the angry mob. 

 

"I will protect even my enemies, so long as it's right', someting along those lines. 

[redbishop]

I have a suspicion that the Fourth Ideal is going to involve leadership more than protection.  @Groggins made a good point about Kal's Oaths involving overcoming his character flaws - right now, it looks like he is calm, cool, and collected.

He is also operating alone and unafraid, which based on the Strength of Squires and the divine attribute of Leadership, seems like it isn't the role he is supposed to fill.  I would suspect "I will stand alongside those that stand with me, and allow them to fight at my side."  Or something similar, in better prose.

[Hafrigado]

This is also supported by Kaladin wanting to take his parents to safety even after they made it clear they want to stay (well, at least Lirin).

[Calderis]

I feel like Kal's next oath is going to be an AA catechism. 

"Almighty grant me the wisdom to accept the things I cannot change" 

Seriously. He has to realize he can't control everything. 

[Bean Delphiki]

That theory

16 hours ago, Groggins said:

Hello, first time poster here and I just had a few thoughts regarding the 4th ideal of the windrunner's with the newest release of Oathbringer chapters.

For the most part the windrunner's ideals have related to the flaws in Kaladin's character that he has to overcome. 

This ideal, I believe, is related to enabling/trusting/inspiring others to protect and not taking on the full burden on your own, as Kaladin's tends to do.

In the case of bridge 4, Kaladin has been able to trust all of them (excluding Moash) with the task of protecting the Kholins, and now they are squires. If not an ideal, then I then I think that "trust" is at the very least the bond that creates squires. 

Chapter 7 confirmed that he imagined Laral as unable to protect herself, and fantasized about coming back to save her. Come to find out she was more than capable on her own. This came of as a shock to him.

I think that Kaladin needs to learn that he is not capable of protecting every one on his own. He is getting close with the fact that he left Hearthstone (and Roshone of all people) to themselves. I fully expect something to come up that will cause him to regret this decision and "fail" as always. (The events at Hearthstone went a little to smoothly, and it makes me suspicious)

I think the ideal would be something like this.

"I will trust others to protect those I can not" 

 

 

This makes a lot of sense. It also fits with the fact that the Windrunners have squires.

[Nathrangking]

Something to the effect of "I will lead even those who hate" could work.

[AeonaRin]

I'm a fan of this theory and I think it fits after the whole OB perfectly. 

[Darvys]

On 13/09/2017 at 5:18 AM, Groggins said:

"I will trust others to protect those I can not" 

First ideal theory that didn't make me cringe, that took a while, have an upvote.

I don't think it'll be enough though, it's commonly assumed that the ideal will have to deal with failure, Kaladin already entrusts others with the task of protecting people he cares for and is somewhat aware of his limitations, there has to be a part where he accepts that not everyone can be protected despite his and others' efforts so he can let go of his guilt, seems obvious but clearly not easy to accept. I still can't figure how it could be formulated without sounding underwhelming.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Say the fourth ideal grants him a set of shard plate, what could a knight sworn to all five oaths be capable of? I am hoping for something that sets him apart from other lesser wind runners.

[el_warko]

On ‎25‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:05 AM, .S.A.M.K.M said:

Say the fourth ideal grants him a set of shard plate, what could a knight sworn to all five oaths be capable of? I am hoping for something that sets him apart from other lesser wind runners.

Kamehameha wave.

Edited December 26, 2017 by el_warko
picture didn't picture.

[smokeesid]

He chose to linger in the memories of the dead over being with Tarah. The ideal will have something to do with this issue

[Stormsurfer]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 1:54 PM, Darvys said:

First ideal theory that didn't make me cringe, that took a while, have an upvote.

I don't think it'll be enough though, it's commonly assumed that the ideal will have to deal with failure, Kaladin already entrusts others with the task of protecting people he cares for and is somewhat aware of his limitations, there has to be a part where he accepts that not everyone can be protected despite his and others' efforts so he can let go of his guilt, seems obvious but clearly not easy to accept. I still can't figure how it could be formulated without sounding underwhelming.

It would probably be something like I will protect even those I can not save

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth]

On 13.9.2017 at 6:18 AM, Groggins said:

Hello, first time poster here and I just had a few thoughts regarding the 4th ideal of the windrunner's with the newest release of Oathbringer chapters.

For the most part the windrunner's ideals have related to the flaws in Kaladin's character that he has to overcome. 

This ideal, I believe, is related to enabling/trusting/inspiring others to protect and not taking on the full burden on your own, as Kaladin's tends to do.

In the case of bridge 4, Kaladin has been able to trust all of them (excluding Moash) with the task of protecting the Kholins, and now they are squires. If not an ideal, then I then I think that "trust" is at the very least the bond that creates squires. 

Chapter 7 confirmed that he imagined Laral as unable to protect herself, and fantasized about coming back to save her. Come to find out she was more than capable on her own. This came of as a shock to him.

I think that Kaladin needs to learn that he is not capable of protecting every one on his own. He is getting close with the fact that he left Hearthstone (and Roshone of all people) to themselves. I fully expect something to come up that will cause him to regret this decision and "fail" as always. (The events at Hearthstone went a little to smoothly, and it makes me suspicious)

I think the ideal would be something like this.

"I will trust others to protect those I can not" 

 

 

I like this theory a lot.

Somehow his fourth ideal has to give at least some solution to his dilemma that he might be protecting the wrong people by killing those that are actually right in the conflict.He can't swear to protect people at all cost, because it will put others in danger.
I always thought it would be something like:

"I will protect the people from themselves, so they won't be destroyed by themselves".

But i think i like yours better.

 

[BurntRose]

I don't think the 4th ideal is so much about protecting the 'wrong people' as it is about realising he can't protect others from themselves, and accepting that the people he protects make decisions that might get themselves killed, and not taking responsibility for that. 

 

Something along the lines of 

'i can protect only those who will accept my protection' that's not quite right - no doubt Brandon will say it better if I'm right!! 

[RiyriaMistborn]

Judging by the gem found in the drawer that says something along the lines of not being "ready to swear the 4th ideal" and "shouldn't I want to protect people?" and adding in Kaladin's tendency to want to protect everyone and blame himself for his failures, I think the 4th ideal will be about accepting loss. Something along the lines of "I will save those I can, and abandon those I cannot." 

Saying that ideal would've meant he would have had to abandon his friends in Shadesmar, and he just couldn't do it. 

Kaladin holds his failures against himself, always believing he could have done better, even as a surgeon. It's the first lesson he learned as a surgeon, and still the hardest choice to make. You save who you can, and some people are beyond your ability to save. Admitting that you did what you could and it wasn't enough would be storming difficult. 

[Kaleid]

I made a topic about pretty much exactly this without realising that one had already been made haha. Here are my two cents:

 

One of the biggest moments in Oathbringer (a book full of big moments) was Kaladin's almost-but-not-quite swearing of his fourth ideal.

There has been some speculation as to what his fourth ideal would have been, but I haven't seen mentioned what I'd thought at the time. The more I think on it, the more convinced I am that I'm right.

All of Kal's oaths so far have been about protecting people. Each has one of his oaths has also been profound to him on some level (increasingly so, I'd argue). I think the fourth oath will be something along the lines of:

 

"I accept that I will sometimes be in need of protection, and will accept protection from other people."

 

This is quite the profound statement for Kal, as even when he was back in Amaram's army, he was the one protecting other people and taking them under his wing. Storms, his reason for joining in the first place was to protect his little brother.

 

It also suggests why he was unable to swear his oath at the time. There was no one there who was capable of protecting him, and accepting that he was in need of protection would imply that be was incapable of protecting his friends at the time. Accepting this would be like accepting Adolin's death.

 

It's also cool to note that the fourth ideal actually directly results in protection in the form of plate.

 

I think this fourth ideal is going to be very difficult for Kal to accept, but represents the next step of his journey.

[Shard Slayer]

I have a feeling the 4th ideal will be something simple, probably just an admission of the potential of failure "I cannot protect everyone". Right before Kaladin comes through the Dalinar perpendicularity Syl's words make it seem like he is almost ready to speak the 4th idea, but he doesn't quite get there. He can't accept that there is no way for him to be by Dalinar's side. Until he is able to let go of his failures (which is a huge thing holding Kal down) he's not going to be able to move forward. He's always going to be crying about all the people he's failed to protect (or has killed to protect others). While obviously feeling sorrow for them, he needs to be able to move on.

 

Edit:

There is a comment Syl makes after he fails to speak the oath right before Dalinar is awesome about "Maybe it's time for someone else to save you", but I don't think that has anything to do with the oath. I don't think Kaladin has a problem with being protected per-say, he has a problem not being the one doing the protecting, which is similar, but not the same. He can't accept the failure of him not being able to protect someone, even himself. He doesn't (I believe) have a problem with being protected. For example while fighting alongside Adolin in the WoR duel scene he depends on Adolin to protect his back. He would have had a problem if Adolin had been doing all the work, but that's because he can't accept that sometime he isn't able to protect everyone, not because he isn't able to be protected by others.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Shard Slayer