Calderis

[OB] Implications of the Lightweaving map.

30 posts in this topic

Shallan feels a tugging from Dalinar, and then the stormlight surges between them before forming the map. 

I feel like Dalinar linked up (bonded) with Shallan here and their powers worked in tandem to produce a Lightweaving effect. 

So total speculation here... But what if Dalinar can do this with multiple Radiants simultaneously? 

Imagine pre-recreance, a Bondsmith links up with every living lightweaver/truthwatcher simultaneously and together they focus one massive Soundwave at storms eat via the surge of Illumination. 

I think this could explain storms eat and the Shattered Plains. I can't wait to learn more about Bondsmiths. 

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And how will this bonding ability manifest with other orders? Would a Windrunner enable Dalinar to fly? Can he borrow surges? Or does he boost them, perhaps enhancing a Windrunner's squires?

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Dalinar has only done the Second Ideal, too, right? And all Orders have Five Ideals to become fully realized? So if a Level 2 Bondsmith can commandeer another Radiant's Surgebinding, imagine what a Level 5 one could do, yeah.

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7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Shallan feels a tugging from Dalinar, and then the stormlight surges between them before forming the map. 

I think this is our introduction to the surge of tension.  It could be the Bondsmith resonance power, but (narratively) it feels too early for us to see that.

I expect this is functioning by establishing a Connection - likely between allies or at least agreeing individuals - to use their powers and abilities together.  Here it involves Surgebinding, elsewhere it may allow communications, and enhanced tactics.

Although the idea of using a spanreed-connected spotter and a team of Windrunners and Skybreakers as artillery would be amusing.

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I almost feel like Dalinar acted like a Blue Lantern.  Not too much power on his own, and no real offensive capabilities.

 

But he can super charge the others.

 

Which  would make sense, that a Bondsmith would require a bunch of willing supporters to back them up.

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19 minutes ago, redbishop said:

I think this is our introduction to the surge of tension.  It could be the Bondsmith resonance power, but (narratively) it feels too early for us to see that.

I disagree. I believe this is the Bondsmith Resonance. The surge of Tension deals with altering the stiffness of materials. Brandon has described it as something similar to tensile strength, but... More. 

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8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. I believe this is the Bondsmith Resonance. The surge of Tension deals with altering the stiffness of materials. Brandon has described it as something similar to tensile strength, but... More. 

In that case, I stand corrected.  A pity, as it would be a really potent capability for the Stonewards, as one of the main-line combat orders, to posess.

That said, it is in keeping with the second divine attribute associated with Ishar - "Guiding."  That mirrors the Windrunner's "Strength of Squires" being in line with Jezrien's secondary attribute of "Leading."  I suspect I'm over-analyzing that, however.

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It sounds Resonance-y to me, especially since Dalinar was unaware of what he did. Surges seems like the stuff you do on purpose, while the side-effects (resonance, healing, looking cool) are unintentional.

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Or it could just be what Dalinar said. His Spren passing information to Shallan. The Bondsmith's have extremely powerful Spren. Ones that likely alter the way being a Radiant works. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

 So total speculation here... But what with f Dalinar can do this with multiple Radiants simultaneously? 

Imagine pre-recreance, a Bondsmith links up with every living lightweaver/truthwatcher simultaneously and together they focus one massive Soundwave at storms eat via the surge of Illumination. 

I think this could explain storms eat and the Shattered Plains. I can't wait to learn more about Bondsmiths. 

Maybe that's how they made urithru, many Elsecallers and lightweavers working along with a bondsmith. 

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2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It sounds Resonance-y to me, especially since Dalinar was unaware of what he did. Surges seems like the stuff you do on purpose, while the side-effects (resonance, healing, looking cool) are unintentional.

Looking cool? Kinda like floating two feet in the air with a glowing Shardspear, and making a speech about Voidbringers before flying off into the distance? :D

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3 minutes ago, Ardjet said:

Looking cool? Kinda like floating two feet in the air with a glowing Shardspear, and making a speech about Voidbringers before flying off into the distance? :D

Totally not on purpose.

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2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Surges seems like the stuff you do on purpose,

Not while learning.  Kaladin did a lot of things by accident, like lashing the arrows to the bridge on his runs.  When first learning, they seem to do things unconciously until they learn to harness and direct their power....

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The first thing I assumed when I read it was a resonance effect. When you have resonance in an electrical circuit for example, you end up with a very large spike in voltage. Mechanical resonances can result in things like entire bridges shaking up and down. Seems like Shallan was able to Lightweave at an ability she wasn't aware she was capable of. The pulling effect from Dalinar seemed like the definition of a resonance effect to me. 

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It would be useful to know if this is something Shallan can do under certain conditions, or something she needs a Bondsmith (or another radiant) to pull-off properly. 

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So, here's a slightly in-depth theory on the subject:

 

1. Lightweaving: Lightweaving seems to require a template in order for it to work. In most cases, Shallan has drawn an image, and used her own connection to those images in order to reproduce them in lightweaving. In one instance we see that the copy is very exact, she failed to draw one image correctly, and the result was a blurred fuzzy area on one of her disguises.

 In another case, Shallan used a different, specific type of connection, called memory--she reproduced a scene from memory, which I'm sure most of us can recall.

In order to create that map of Roshar, Shallan would have a great deal of trouble. Why? Because she has never seen it? True, but another way of saying it is that she has no connection to the full image of the Rosharan continent. But Dalinar does...

2. Bondsmiths: We know that each order of Radiants has power over 2 surges. More importantly, we also know that each order of Radiants has a "passive benefit" which is unique to their order. Lightweavers have an unusually acurate visual memory, and sense for geometry--this is shown constantly when the world is viewed from Shallan's perspective. Windrunners have an exceptional ability for combat: we can see this in Kaladin, particularly when he lost his bond, or during the arena fight assisting Adolin.

We do not yet know the "passive" abilities of the other Orders of Radiants, but I would pose that a Bondsmith has some ability to share connection.  If this is true, it is a power more flexible by far than the two that we have seen. Shallan would then be able to share Dalinars connection to the Stormfather, and the Stormfather's connection to the Map of Roshar.

 

3. it has nothing to do with "Power". Shallan was not able to create that map because she used a large amount of stormlight. compaired to the size and complexity of other Lightweavings Shallan created, this one was well within previously shown limits. The thing most unusual was what was created, not how much power it took.

---

now, I'm not 100% certain that that really is the passive ability of a Bondsmith, but in terms of underlying mechanics, I'm confident in my claims about what Shallan did. If this theory is correct, than the statements of others (multiple radiants combining their power, working under one bondsmith) are not beyond the realm of possibility.

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4 minutes ago, entropicscholar said:

Lightweaving: Lightweaving seems to require a template in order for it to work. In most cases, Shallan has drawn an image, and used her own connection to those images in order to reproduce them in lightweaving. In one instance we see that the copy is very exact, she failed to draw one image correctly, and the result was a blurred fuzzy area on one of her disguises.

And according to pattern, while this is currently necessary for Shallan, it is not supposed to be necessary. 

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It's interesting that she receives a pull from Dalanar, but feels Renarin is creepy. Truth watchers and Bondsmiths are the two opposites in the radiant diagram. I wonder if her opposite feeling has to do with her positioning the diagram.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Knights_Radiant

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7 minutes ago, Shuffel said:

It's interesting that she receives a pull from Dalanar, but feels Renarin is creepy. Truth watchers and Bondsmiths are the two opposites in the radiant diagram. I wonder if her opposite feeling has to do with her positioning the diagram.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Knights_Radiant

I thought the pull was what Dalinar did based on the need to understand the situation more. It didn't have anything to do with positioning. Had the situation required the use of another surgebinder he would have "pulled" on someone else I suppose, if they were present. 

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5 hours ago, Calderis said:

it is not supposed to be necessary. 

If I recall correctly, the WoR Ars Arcanum says that it is necessary for lightweaving that the creator must have a spiritual connection image. For Shallan, it is not strange to suggest that her drawings would give her the connection that is required.

Edited by Metalrift
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22 minutes ago, Metalrift said:

If I recall correctly, the WoR Ars Arcanum says that it is necessary for lightweaving that the creator must have a spiritual connection image. For Shallan, it is not strange to suggest that her drawings would give her the connection that is required.

And as awesome as Khriss is, I'll trust a lightweaver spren over her, tyvm. 

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12 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It sounds Resonance-y to me, especially since Dalinar was unaware of what he did. Surges seems like the stuff you do on purpose, while the side-effects (resonance, healing, looking cool) are unintentional.

Kalidan lashed subconsciously as a bridgeman (so arrows never hit him, only the bridge.). So that distinction of resonance=subconscious, and surges=conscious isn't that crisp and rigid.

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I see that as Bondsmith's resonance not One of their Surges (as Stormlight wasn't used and the effect doesn't match with what we already know of that Surges).

Much more I don't see that Resonance as an empowered Radiants' Surges as really Shallan did something within the scopes of the Surgebinding.

Neither I believe a Bondsmith could actually use others Surges and instead he Simply simulate the others in using...so in the end It would do mostly nothing that It could not be performed without It.

Probably the whole process works with a temp Bond Forged by the Need. And in some cases this bond is enough to actual forces people (I suspect the Radiants as their Spren works like backdoor...nothing too different from Odium with the Forms of Power)

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I posted this in the Oathbringer Chapter 7-9 thread, and though it would be good to mention it here too:

1 hour ago, OrangeJedi said:

 

So my latest idea with the map is that Bondsmiths can "link" KRs and they can share/improve surges (similar to channeling and linking in Wheel of Time). Could this mean that with the help of a Bondsmith multiple KRs can share skills/surges/stormlight and accomplish crazy/cool things that use 3+ surges, or use someone else knowledge to power another's surge (the map)?

@WhiteLeeopard responded with:

46 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

So, continuing your WoT analogy, the Bondsmiths would be the women and the other 9 orders the men? That sounds interesting, but if it is the case I suspect there would be some hard limits very fast. Otherwise it would be insanely powerful. What I'd be curious to know if it were true, is who would be in control of the "link" and whether Bondsmiths could do it against someone's will.

So there is my idea, Bondsmith's can initiate a connection, akin to linking in WoT, between KRs. As @WhiteLeeopard said, there would need to be limits, possibly related to the number of KRs that one Bondsmith can connect.

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10 minutes ago, OrangeJedi said:

I posted this in the Oathbringer Chapter 7-9 thread, and though it would be good to mention it here too:

@WhiteLeeopard responded with:

So there is my idea, Bondsmith's can initiate a connection, akin to linking in WoT, between KRs. As @WhiteLeeopard said, there would need to be limits, possibly related to the number of KRs that one Bondsmith can connect.

That's exactly what I was proposing. In the past one or more of the Bondsmiths linked together all of the Lightweavers/Truthwatchers to use illumination on a massive scale and created the Shattered Plains in a sonic attack. 

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