Jump to content

[OB] 4 genders


Darkness

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Stark said:

Final thought for the shard number theorists out there.  The listeners were not originally of Honor or Odium (theorized numbers 10 and 9 respectively).  While they did fave a council of five (I think five has been theorized to be Endowment), the longest running number I can think of being linked to them is 4, for their genders.  Any theories on which shard is linked to the number 4 yet?  Might give us a hint as to what shard was the listeners original patron.

The Shards association with a specific Number is only a theory and not the only one on the "Numbers". Another (that I found more fitting with the Cosmere we know) is about Shardworlds Association with a specific Number

In this context Roshar's Number is 10 and Breize's Number is 9 (Ashlyn is 10 too).

Anyway as the Listeners predated the Shattering. No Shard could be their Creator but they are designed as the rest of Roshar by Adonalsium

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Salkara said:

Actually, I think it does affect them. When reading the Parshendi, we have to remember that Brandon intends them to be an alien race. We could make an argument that gender as a social construct in humans is driven by our biological need to reproduce. Malen and femalen Parshendi do not have that need as they are asexual.

Moreover, I believe Syl used the term 'gender' in reference to reproduction. Male and female can physically reproduce only with members of the opposite gender. Hence she would say that humans have 2 genders. For the Parshendi, she adds another 2 genders: malen and femalen, which cannot physically reproduce but can change biologic gender to male and female, respectively, for reproductive purposes.

I'm not saying that gender lines are absolute. There are likely spren which regularly appear as a different gender than that with which they identify; however, it's difficult to extrapolate our understanding of gender to an alien species with additional genders.

I think saying societal concepts automatically don't apply to the Parshendi because they're aliens is pretty illogical. They clearly have a societal conception of gender, and it is clearly still based on reproduction as the ability and will to reproduce is something that distinguishes male from malen or female from femalen.

My point is this: the definition of malen/femalen as genders that do not reproduce is societal for the Parshendi. If malen and femalen Listeners are technically capable of reproducing on some level, that does not invalidate their genders because in the Parshendi's eyes they are still not meant to- for gender the ideas of what is supposed to be true often outweigh what physically is true. This is further supported by the fact that malen and femalen Listeners are still emotionally asexual, something they hold as a marker of gender, though us humans generally don't.

Also, I find it fairly evident that Syl was not talking about reproduction when she mentioned gender, because she was talking specifically about spren gender (sprender), and spren, as far as we know, don't reproduce like humans or listeners. She explicitly described spren gender as a result of personification, meaning it comes from mental ideas, or societal conceptions, of what gender is rather than physical sexual characteristics.

Edited by kiapet
wanted to include quote for clarity of thread
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, kiapet said:

I think saying societal concepts automatically don't apply to the Parshendi because they're aliens is pretty illogical. They clearly have a societal conception of gender, and it is clearly still based on reproduction as the ability and will to reproduce is something that distinguishes male from malen or female from femalen.

My point is this: the definition of malen/femalen as genders that do not reproduce is societal for the Parshendi. If malen and femalen Listeners are technically capable of reproducing on some level, that does not invalidate their genders because in the Parshendi's eyes they are still not meant to- for gender the ideas of what is supposed to be true often outweigh what physically is true. This is further supported by the fact that malen and femalen Listeners are still emotionally asexual, something they hold as a marker of gender, though us humans generally don't.

Also, I find it fairly evident that Syl was not talking about reproduction when she mentioned gender, because she was talking specifically about spren gender (sprender), and spren, as far as we know, don't reproduce like humans or listeners. She explicitly described spren gender as a result of personification, meaning it comes from mental ideas, or societal conceptions, of what gender is rather than physical sexual characteristics.

I wasn't saying societal concepts can't apply to the Parshendi. I was saying that we shouldn't assume our understanding of how a society functions should automatically apply to an alien race. Understanding is shaped by experience, and we're lacking in experience living in a mostly-asexual society. Ours and the Parshendi's understandings of gender can easily differ based on experience alone.

Also, afaik, we don't know how the Parshendi reproduce. Do they have live birth or are the oviparous? What are the mechanics of their conception (e.g. is intercourse required or can it be achieved externally)? It's very possible that Parshendi reproduction is miles different from human reproduction.

Oh, and we don't necessarily know that spren don't reproduce. Syl did mention having an aunt, which probably means she has a mother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Also, afaik, we don't know how the Parshendi reproduce. Do they have live birth or are the oviparous? What are the mechanics of their conception (e.g. is intercourse required or can it be achieved externally)? It's very possible that Parshendi reproduction is miles different from human reproduction.

Considering Horneaters and Herdazians both have Parshendi blood, I think it's safe to assume they conceive through similar methods to us.  

Edited by Calderis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Salkara said:

Interesting. I don't think I've ever heard that. Is there WoB on that?

Yeah, from Reddit. 

Quote

HorseCannon

I didn't realize horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other?

Brandon Sanderson

There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.

ccstat

Are there Aimian-Human hybrids as well? (Either type of Aimian) If so, are the Thaylen people one of these?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Edited by Calderis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing that I think we should ask ourselves is are the listeners the only native race of Roshar or are the Amian's also locals. cause I can imagine the Amians seeing themselves as very different from our own gender Ideas 

basicly here's how I see it 

  • Gender 1 Male from the Listeners
  • Gender 2 Female also from the Listeners
  • Gender 3 hermaphrodite from the Siah Amians (I admit I don't really have any basis for this one but given how Axies can change his form I wonder if he/she/it can change their reproductive organs as well)
  • Gender 4 all of the above Dysian Amians who are simultaneously multiple genders.

I admit that I'm not really sure about gender 3 like I said i don't have any basis for it however I do feel pretty confident about 4.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Argent changed the title to [OB] 4 genders
  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...