[OB] Oathbringer chapters 7-9

[+Wax]

And as others have noted, nobody talks to Renarin.  Even though he is a bloody publically declared Radiant!

Why won't he talk or be talked to??

Edited September 12, 2017 by axcellence

[DSC01]

I don't think Renarin is the one who committed the second murder at the moment, but I do think that he is a suspect. There is something odd going on with him, and the possibility that he is being manipulated by Odium remains. Indeed, he may be bonding a Voidspren. I am quite certain that he knows that Adolin killed Sadeas, and it isn't unreasonable to suspect that he could have committed the second murder to throw people off Adolin's trail. Sadeas makes sense as a political killing, but when you throw in a second victim--a random person from Sebarial's princedom-then it makes it look like a serial killer. The notion that frail little Renarin couldn't handle it seems very unlikely. Yes, he says that he doesn't know how to use his powers, but even if this is so, he should be able to unconsciously activate something. Perhaps he found the experience draining, and this is why we find him bundled up against a cold much greater than anyone else is feeling?

Anyway, that is what I see pointing to Renarin, but I don't necessarily think it was him. Ialai also doesn't make sense as a suspect to me because I don't see how making it seem like there is someone randomly killing people would be a good way to get revenge for her husband's death. All of the Sadeas men suspected Kholin right away. Why would Ialai step in and diffuse that suspicion?

The Ghostbloods make the most sense to me. They don't have to know that Adolin killed Sadeas to have the motivation to draw suspicion away from Kholin. They want Dalinar to lead Alethkar, and Sadeas being murdered threatens his power. Randomly killing an ally of Kholin who has no particular significance in the exact same way that Sadeas was killed shifts the suspicion away from Kholin very neatly.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Quote

“What you’ve become,” Lirin continued, “is a killer. You solve problems with the fist and the sword. I had hoped that you would find a place among the army’s surgeons.”

Much more meaningful upon reread. First time I took it as an expression, but its so literal. Fist=punch. Sword=authority he used to take control.

[+Wax]

Now we have a whodunit in the mix.... great.  Who is the butler? 

Edited September 13, 2017 by axcellence

[+robardin]

7 minutes ago, axcellence said:

One thing I don't get is what became of the Honorblade that Kal got from Szeth?

He had it on his shoulder when he arrived by Oathgate at the end of Words of Radiance, and that was the last we've seen of it. Presumably it's in Dalinar's custodianship.

Hey, I wonder if an Honorblade would operate an Oathgate as well as a Shardblade would.
 

[DSC01]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Hey, I wonder if an Honorblade would operate an Oathgate as well as a Shardblade would.
 

I think that depends on exactly how they work as keys. I don't think it said explicitly, but I got the impression that a living Shardblade was necessary because the spren can adjust its shape to become a key. In that case, no it wouldn't. If, on the other hand, it has more to do with Investiture than being a literal key, then I could see an Honorblade possibly working.

[yulerule]

I think the hype about Renarin is totally overdone. We have practically no concrete knowledge about him, and I'm reading all the comments, I think people are building a tower of cards based on basically nothing. We don't have enough info! You people are speculating based on other people's speculation, probably turtles all the way down. I'm waiting for a bigger chunk before I start forming opinions.

[Daishi5]

8 minutes ago, axcellence said:

And as others have noted, nobody talks to Renarin.  Even though he is a bloody publically declared Radiant!

Why won't he talk or be talked to??

The one thing we know about Truthseers is that they do not write or talk about what they do.  

 

I wonder if they are strongly connected to cultivation.  They see things because she is good at seeing the future, and they do things to help people grow into what they need to be, kind of like gardeners laying out a lattice for plants.  

[treblkickd]

13 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Much more meaningful upon reread. First time I took it as an expression, but its so literal. Fist=punch. Sword=authority he used to take control.

Wow, I didn't catch it at first but on the second read this is a pretty harsh burn by Lirin. The thing is that I think Kaladin needs these kinds of rebukes/reminders sometimes. The divine attributes of the Windrunners are protecting and leading, and while fighting/killing can sometimes be necessary means, they are not at all at the core of what his being a Radiant is about.

 

On that line of thought, it's actually pretty easy for me to understand why Syl would be drawn to Laral. As a practical matter, she (Laral) has pretty clearly taken over the primary leadership role in Hearthstone, and is obviously on top of organizing and leading that community. An effective and respected town/city administrator would naturally align extremely well with the attributes of the Windrunners.

Edited September 12, 2017 by treblkickd

[WhiteLeeopard]

4 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I think the hype about Renarin is totally overdone. We have practically no concrete knowledge about him, and I'm reading all the comments, I think people are building a tower of cards based on basically nothing. We don't have enough info! You people are speculating based on other people's speculation, probably turtles all the way down. I'm waiting for a bigger chunk before I start forming opinions.

Welcome to the 17th Shard .

[DSC01]

@yulerule Yeah, it's all speculation, but there isn't nothing. There have been clues for a while that something odd is going on with Renarin, and WoB strongly implies that it could be something pretty major. It's not like we're just pulling this out of the air. Besides, that's kind of what one one does on the Shard--speculate wildly (maybe not everyone, but a whole lot of us sure do). We're all aware that everything we come up with could be knocked flat by one sentence from an actual book. It's just fun.

[+robardin]

3 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

The Ghostbloods make the most sense to me. They don't have to know that Adolin killed Sadeas to have the motivation to draw suspicion away from Kholin. They want Dalinar to lead Alethkar, and Sadeas being murdered threatens his power. Randomly killing an ally of Kholin who has no particular significance in the exact same way that Sadeas was killed shifts the suspicion away from Kholin very neatly.

The latter part is certainly true, but why would the Ghostbloods want Dalinar in power?

I think Mraize fits almost all the angles of the profile of the Second Murderer - we know he's in Urithiru somewhere, was talking to Shallan not long before Adolin went off to explore the upper levels and bumped into Sadeas, he's cold-blooded enough to kill a random Alethi just to cause confusion, and skilled enough to mimic the execution exactly based on Sadeas' death. That strongly suggests he not only saw the body before anyone discovered it, but that he witnessed the killing from some hidden location.

And it doesn't appear that Adolin is exactly grateful for it. He seems pretty angry that a presumably innocent man has been killed, in a way to ensnare him even deeper in his hidden crime.

The only question is, why would Mraize bother to shift attention about Sadeas away from Adolin? Is it a ploy to gain leverage on Shallan, or something else?

[heridfel]

My first thought for the new potential murderer is an assassin sent by Ialai. It seemed like Sadeas' murder was going to get swept under the rug - I mean, Dalinar holds a wedding officiated by the Stormfather right afterwards! From a political standpoint, that'd be a pretty good distraction. By having someone else murdered in the exact same fashion, it forces everyone to confront the first murder as well. She seemed cold-blooded enough to have someone killed just to make a point, and we know that Rosharan nobility isn't averse to hiring assassins...

[DSC01]

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong secret society, then. Maybe the Diagramists? Who was Moash with?

Anyway, I don't think anyone but Adolin and Renarin have any idea who actually killed Sadeas. The most likely motivation for this murder right now is to shift suspicion away from the Kholin people in general.

[Calderis]

Just now, robardin said:

The latter part is certainly true, but why would the Ghostbloods want Dalinar in power?

He's mixed up The Ghostbloods, and Graves interpretation of the Diagram. 

We know nothing of the Ghostbloods goals or motives. The Diagram is something interpreted differently by different groups as seen by Taravangian sending Szeth to kill Dalinar, and Graves trying to kill Elhokar to make him king. 

Honestly, there's so many secret societies it's amazing they aren't confused more often. 

[+robardin]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He's mixed up The Ghostbloods, and Graves interpretation of the Diagram. 

We know nothing of the Ghostbloods goals or motives. The Diagram is something interpreted differently by different groups as seen by Taravangian sending Szeth to kill Dalinar, and Graves trying to kill Elhokar to make him king. 

Honestly, there's so many secret societies it's amazing they aren't confused more often. 

But that makes even less sense - the Diagrammers (Taravangian's crew) wanted Dalinar dead! Graves' support for Moash's assassination attempt was actually meant to keep Kaladin away from Dalinar so Szeth could get at him.

The Sons of Honor are the other known secret society with a potential aim in having Dalinar in power, since he's now openly a Radiant and refounding the Orders, which is something they had as a goal.

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by robardin

[Starla]

19 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Now that you mention this.. I am not sure if this was discussed somewhere or not, but if Renarin is in the Bridge 4 group, does that mean he could also get "powers" via Kaladin? I know he's alreay a Radiant, but it made me wonder.. or do you think that only applies for the men that have been with Kaladin from the beginning ?

It's an interesting thought, but I doubt it would happen in Renarin's case. Most of the Bridge Four guys all went through hell together when they ran bridges, sat by Kaladin when he nearly died from the highstorm, helped him when he was exploring his surgebinding abilities, and they all chose to give up their escape plans and risk their lives to help save Dalinar and his army. I think this all bonded them together and displayed traits in alignment with the Windrunner ideals. Renarin and some of the more recent additions to Bridge Four (Lopens cousins) weren't present for any of that, and I believe Kaladin kept his abilities hidden from them until the fight with Szeth, when he came out to everyone. 

That being said, it doesn't rule out the possibility for one radiant to become the squire of another if they are closely bonded in some way. It will be interesting to see if it ever happens and how their abilities are affected.

[yulerule]

10 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

@yulerule Yeah, it's all speculation, but there isn't nothing. There have been clues for a while that something odd is going on with Renarin, and WoB strongly implies that it could be something pretty major. It's not like we're just pulling this out of the air. Besides, that's kind of what one one does on the Shard--speculate wildly (maybe not everyone, but a whole lot of us sure do). We're all aware that everything we come up with could be knocked flat by one sentence from an actual book. It's just fun.

Ok, so maybe I didn't catch something, so can you give me any quotes or WoBs? (That can't be attributed to circumspect Truthwaters or sneakily misleading Brandon?)

Edit: Yeah, I know it's all fun, especially since we're basing everything on little droplets doled out to us each week. ( Can't wait to get the entire book, something Highstorm sized)

Edited September 12, 2017 by yulerule

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

But that makes even less sense - the Diagrammers (Taravangian's crew) wanted Dalinar dead! Graves' support for Moash's assassination attempt was actually meant to keep Kaladin away from Dalinar so Szeth could get at him.

The Sons of Honor are the other known secret society with a potential aim in having Dalinar in power, since he's now openly a Radiant and refounding the Orders, which is something they had as a goal.

 

Nope. There's a WoB that the Diagram isn't one group. There are splinters attempting different goals based upon their individual interpretation. 

Graves was meant to show this. They thought keeping Kaladin away from Dalinar would keep him from progressing as a Radiant. He was honest about his stated goals though 

[+robardin]

8 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

@yulerule Yeah, it's all speculation, but there isn't nothing. There have been clues for a while that something odd is going on with Renarin, and WoB strongly implies that it could be something pretty major. It's not like we're just pulling this out of the air. 

Here's more "suspicious stuff":

- Ym (the cobbler that Darkness killed) was confirmed by a WoB to be a Truthwatcher in the making, and we saw him using his powers to heal children. Yet we've never seen Renarin do any Surgebinding at all, neither Progression (healing) nor Illumination (lightweaving).

- Nobody has ever seen him talking to his spren the way people have caught Kaladin and Shallan do. Only that "Glys" told him he's a Truthwatcher.

- We only have his word that he's stopped wearing his glasses because he used Stormlight to heal them. There might be other reasons.

- We also have indication that he was a Surgebinder because he couldn't bear to touch a Shardblade in the arena with Adolin. But again, there might have been other reasons.

- Foretelling the future is repeatedly stated to be something of the Unmade.  We only have Renarin's own word that Truthwatchers "see", or that what that means is that the see the future.

Or maybe he was a Truthwatcher-to-be at one time, but has since been... Co-opted.

[Fulminato]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Nope. There's a WoB that the Diagram isn't one group. There are splinters attempting different goals based upon their individual interpretation. 

Graves was meant to show this. They thought keeping Kaladin away from Dalinar would keep him from progressing as a Radiant. He was honest about his stated goals though 

in the if both dalinar and elhokar end dead could be a major step in the mr.T control all roshar

Edited September 12, 2017 by Fulminato

[the_archduke]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

 

- Ym (the cobbler that Darkness killed) was confirmed by a WoB to be a Truthwatcher in the making, and we saw him using his powers to heal children. Yet we've never seen Renarin do any Surgebinding at all, neither Progression (healing) nor Illumination (lightweaving).

 

Are you certain?  I thought Edgedancer indicated he was a proto-edgedancer

[Calderis]

Yms spren also hid. 

The Vorin prohibition on foretelling is born of the Hierocracy, which occurred after the Recreance. 

We don't know what is going on with Renarin, but until we see some reason to actually indicate the influence of a voidspren, nothing Renarin has done has been indicative of something wrong. 

[DSC01]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

- Foretelling the future is repeatedly stated to be something of the Unmade.  We only have Renarin's own word that Truthwatchers "see", or that what that means is that the see the future.

This is true, and I myself find that suspicious, but Honor explicitly says that Cultivation is able to tell the future to some extent (indeed, he says that she does it better than he does, implying that he also can, a little bit). I think that Odium is just particularly good at it, and the popular belief that seeing the future is therefore evil evolved from that fact. There could very well be Radiants with some future sight.

[WhiteLeeopard]

On Diagram: Graves thought if they manouvered Dalinar into the throne he would become an ally (as Diagram said he could be enemy or ally). He was genuine, BUT at the end orders came to keep Kaladin away from Szeth (which meant away from Dalinar) at all costs. Graves focused on that, but miscalculated and accidentally helped him progress, which he hadn't counted on although the Diagram warned to not "put pressure" on them or they would invest.

Perks of just having finished WoK and WoR reread .

Also, I believe there is a WoB that says no-one saw Adolin commit the murder. Unfortunately I suck at WoB finding as I can't enter theoryland.