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[OB] Oathbringer chapters 7-9


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34 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

On this Renarin not using his powers, I think maybe he has been?

One woman remarks that Dalinar should have no mobility on his should on account off all the injuries he has sustained. Perhaps Renarin has been keeping his father from developing arthritis, or repairing the scar tissue etc? I used to think The Thrill was somehow healing Dalinar, but maybe the simpler answer is that Renarin has been doing it over time. 

Dalinar was healing himself with stormlight. From the end of WoR:

Quote

In response to the question, Dalinar took a sphere from his pocket and held it up. Then he sucked in the Stormlight.

He knew to expect the feeling of a storm raging inside, as both Kaladin and Shallan had described it to him. It urged him to act, to move, to not stand still. It did not, however, feel like the Thrill of battle—which was what he had anticipated.

He felt his wounds healing in a familiar way. He’d done this before, he sensed. On the battlefield earlier? His arm felt fine now, and the cut on his side barely ached anymore.

 

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The injuries he talks about are way older than that,though we don't know how long Renarin has been bonded, and i doubt it's long enough for him to have impacted the healing of Dalinar's multiple shoulder wounds, if he had recently started feeling better he'd have probably made a passing mention of it. Same reasoning applies for Dalinar himself having done it.

I take that as just one more way to show just how tough Dalinar is, he'll just shrug off what would keep most in bed for a week.

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9 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

On this Renarin not using his powers, I think maybe he has been?

One woman remarks that Dalinar should have no mobility on his should on account off all the injuries he has sustained. Perhaps Renarin has been keeping his father from developing arthritis, or repairing the scar tissue etc? I used to think The Thrill was somehow healing Dalinar, but maybe the simpler answer is that Renarin has been doing it over time. 

We have asked if Renarin was unconsciously healing Adolin as he keeps touching him and the answer was no, he isn't healing him. He is very reluctant about his powers which made me think he doesn't use them and purposefully tries not to use them. Thus, if Renarin did not heal Adolin, he certainly did not heal Dalinar. Also, it is commonly accepted Dalinar has been healing himself: he does state how he has been drawing stormlight for years.

Now time to go back a bit within the discussion because Maxal is swamp and drowning within all the new discussion :ph34r: I get lost through all notices I get so sorry for falling at answering in a promptly manner :ph34r:

On 9/14/2017 at 4:11 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Just to throw this out there: I currently have this weird theory.

Basically, after Adolin is found out he is forced to give up his Blade; I'd think this would be common sense when arresting a Shard bearer. Then someone - my guess is Navani - convinces Adolin to run, on the grounds that anything Dalinar decides would be damaging. To help she, possibly with the guards aid, smuggles Oathbringer to Adolin. He uses it to escape, and it is Oathbringer, not his own blade, he ends up reviving.

I wouldn't think it possible. The Blade revival theory relies on the idea the bearer would need to develop a "special" relationship" with his Blade: it isn't something which can happen under normal circumstances. Thus, the idea Adolin would ditch his Blade in order to revive another contradicts the notion he'd need to have this "special" link with it. It also opens the door for recurrent Blade revival which we know is unlikely to happen due to Brandon commenting on how hard and improbable it would be for it to happen only once.

One of my thoughts is not all Blades can actually be revived. I firmly believe some Blades have lost too much conscience of what they used to be and therefore cannot go back to their initial state, no matter what the bearer does. I also believe Oathbringer is one of those Blades just as I believe the fact Adolin refused to name his Blade is important. The names... They matter. If you spend generation naming a Blade a given name, such as Oathbringer, if everyone knows this Blade and revere it for the deeds it once did, then I would argue what is left of the spren's former identity has been wiped out. 

Oathbringer can no longer be anything but... Oathbringer. Adolin's Blade however is not famous, it wasn't given a new identity, even better, young Adolin has been thinking of it as a "Radiant Blade" since Day 1. He keeps referring to it as an object of wonder, of greatness, an artifact from the past definitely linked to the Radiants and he refused to give it a name knowing it once had one. This, I believe is important. By his actions, because Adolin is an impressionable young man who reacts with awe more often than not, well, he may have help the Blade remember. Remember it once was linked to a Radiant, remember it once had a name.... whatever it may be.

On 9/14/2017 at 4:25 PM, DSC01 said:

@Kingsdaughter613 The text has already dealt with the difficulty of bringing a Shardbearer to justice. If memory serves, they are generally exiled because they cannot be imprisoned. Forcing someone to give up their Blade just isn't going to happen, unless they choose to do it. You could argue that Adolin might be convinced that he must, but it really isn't a common sense notion, in general. How would you make the average Shardbearer willingly break their bond? They would have to summon their Blade to do it, and that is a dangerous situation, even if you surround them with guys in Shardplate. Kholin has enough Plate to go around to try that, but that isn't going to be too common. And you really have to remember how valuable Shardblades are. You'd be asking someone to voluntarily give up something that they could easily trade for an entire kingdom--and also to do so by pulling out an insanely deadly weapon and choose to just surrender that fortune instead of using it to kill everyone trying take it away.

Argument could be make Adolin would break the bond of his Blade if Dalinar asks him to do it. I would argue Adolin would slit his own wrists if Dalinar orders it... :o so I wouldn't discount the idea. It wouldn't work with most Shardbearers, but Adolin isn't most Shardbearer. He'd do it, if asked, even if it breaks his heart to do so.

On 9/14/2017 at 4:50 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm really against the idea of Adolin been separated from his blade. Because I'm fully behind the idea of reviving it, and since the spren is dead I don't see how it could ever be revived without being bonded to the spren already. Yes, I know he could theoretically recover it later but...seems iffy. I suspect if a blade is ever revived it has to be because a person advances somehow to 3rd ideal minimun (believe this as once Kaladin killed Syl only way to bring her back was to say the words, even before dying she said it was the only way, as he was too far gone to just go back). Reviving a blade is already an almost impossible event. It'd seem a reasonable assumption it would have to happen slowly, to gradually acclimate the spren to "living", as a person can't just boom say 3 ideals in one go. Kaladin only got away with it because he said 1.

Then again I'm unhappy with Adolin been punished at all as I think he did the right thing morally, ethically, plotwise, characterwise and ehh, alethi law is crap anyway, who cares for it :P. I also hate double standards. Shallan and Jasnah have done much worse and they get lauded for it.

Of course our personal preferences mean not everyone will ever be happy ^_^.

I personally think Adolin may need to be separated from his Blade in order to revive it... They say they break the gem at the pommel to avoid bearers being able to re-bond or re-summon the Blade despite having theoretically broken the bond. They say it remains a tradition as obviously nobody has ever seen anyone do it... but why was it done in the first place?

I am thinking Adolin will do just that. He will be forced to unbond his Blade, but he will then manage to re-summon it despite having destroy the bond. He will not be able to stop thinking of his Blade as... his Blade. I think it could be a way of it happening.

On 9/14/2017 at 5:07 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My thoughts are:

Healing the spren depends on how far the initial radiant was on their Ideals. Assuming all five:

1st ideal - Radiant hears blade screaming. When not summoned the radiant hears half sensible words. The Blade can be summoned instantly. Immediately after saying the first ideal the Radiant can absorb Stormlight and the blade is briefly aware. After this the blade returns to screaming and the radiant no longer has access to surges.

2nd ideal- the spren begins to be more aware, but is often over come by pain. The Radiant can access surges in brief bursts. The spren is clearer when not summoned. The blade can morph very slightly but slowly and it is hard to notice. Surges are inaccessible when Blade is summoned. Radiant can see quick glimpses of their Spren at times but never clearly.

3rd Ideal - the Spren is far more lucid and is overcome to a lesser extent. Surges can be accessed more easily, and consistently. Strength is variable. Surges can be accessed inconsistently when the Blade is summoned. Radiant can now see their Spren flicker in out and the Spren can be seen clearly for brief moments. The Blade can change slowly into different shapes.

4th ideal - the Spren is almost entirely lucid but has occasional brief moments of blackout. Surges can be accessed all the time, but the strength still varies some. Surges are accessible when the Blade is summoned but are weaker. The Blade can change shape more easily, but still slower than unbroken Spren. The Radiant can now see their Spren consistently but others have trouble (when the Spren wants to be seen.)

5th ideal - The Spren is healed and everything is normal.

I CLEARLY spent way too much time thinking about this.

Great post! I have seen it a little bit differently. I am thinking up until third oath, the Radiants has no access to surges and he may even lose the ability to control the Blade. It remains stuck in physical shape. An idea I had is once Adolin unbond his Blade, but manages to re-summon (at a crucial moment because huh that would make a nice scene), it remains stuck in physical shape. He cannot control it anymore.

Honestly, I am rambling a bit. I do not really know. Your ideas are good though. I like the idea of having sporadic unreliable access to stormlight and surges.

On 9/14/2017 at 5:44 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

Ah sorry, I should have specified I meant this concretely for Adolin. Reasons why its believed Adolin will revive blade it:

  • He is sort of Edgedancer material (at least has the potential?) and WoB says his Blade is an Edgedancer spren
  • He befriends everyone, regardless of rank or eyes
  • He hates Sadeas for the tower, and thinks specifically of those that were his friends and men that he lost there. Even Dalinar is more focused on the political and military power he lost there than the specific men
  • He saved the whore in Sadeas camp without a second thought
  • Adolin can't get the Thrill during the battle of Narak
  • He dismishes his blade, then there is a written in italics "duck", Eshonai attacks from behind. 
  • The duck is a big point of contention, with some saying its the blade, some thinking its just his instincts as a warrior
  • He summons his blade to fight Eshonai immediately, no comment of 10 heartbeats
  • He is happy to fight Eshonai as he no longer feels he is fighting an unfair fight (worthy oponent vs slaughter)
  • And then of course there is how he talks to his blade before each duel and refuses to name it

I think thats all, but lets just page @maxal in case I missed anything.

I wrote a lot of posts as to why I thought Adolin was befitting the Edgedancer order more than any other orders. One of my arguments has always been the fact Edgedancers were seen as the Good Samaritans of the Radiants, always ready to help people, no matter who or when or how. They would see wrong and they would try to fix it, in whichever way they can and this, this is exactly what Adolin has been doing. He has been trying to fix things around him. He is also terribly centered on people as opposed to politics or scheming which seems to be another characteristic for the Edgedancers.

The oaths he'd need to learn seem to fit his personality closely: remembering and listening. It also offers great character progression for him considering his status as a Prince. I have argued Adolin is more interesting as an Edgedancer than Lift as I feel Lift didn't really have to learn nor to progress much in order to learn her oaths. She is basically one of the forgotten, she had to remember her kind and listen to them: it seems very easy when you are a street urchin to consider other street urchins. Adolin being a Prince means he'd have to go against his upbringing, across the class separation but in an opposite manner as Kaladin. It makes a nicer path for him than "learning how to be more brave and more obedient" which I think is a false route: Adolin does not need to be more obedient when he has make the statement he would disobey if needs be. Destroying his ability to help by forcing him to obey would ruin his character. It is a character path more suited for someone like Elhokar who do better to learn how to obey than to lead.

Adolin is also superstitious, just like Lift. He gives a strong importance to small things.

As for clues within the books, well there aren't much. I do not think he summon his Blade in less than 10 seconds when he fought Eshonai neither do I think the word duck was his Blade warning him. I do not think Adolin has progressed with the revival of his Blade. Not yet.

So sorry for many delayed response. I wish I did not have to work during the days so I could follow more of the discussion.

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On 9/16/2017 at 2:28 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

I doubt they will get rid of all the Shards, it doesn't make sense in any way. KR are much more powerful than Shardbearers, but even in old times they didn't fight alone. Rather nearly all of humanity fought. Battles in which 9 out of 10 people died. Shardbearers make a person much, much stronger and tougher than a person without them. They may not be as awesome as they were before the KR returned, but still a Shardbearer will have much greater chances of surviving the Desolation than a normal soldier. 

True, the spren are suffering, but they have been suffering for thousands of years. A few more decades won't kill them (any worse than they are). Then, they have no clue how to release them. Only theory I believe of the ones I've seen (other than revival, which we know is very hard) is destroying them with Nightblood. Which I'm not sure is an improvement. As for not using the Shardblades, when you have them lying around and the spren will suffer all the same, that just seems dumb. The spren may not like seing Shardblades used, but in war some distatesful things are done. If the worst they have to do is use dead Shardblades to survive, they can count themselves lucky. 

I promise that I'm aware of the advantages of shards. I have, in fact, read beyond the prologue of Way of Kings, thank you ;)

This isn't a theory I'm perfectly confident on, but neither is it wholely without merit. "...doesn't make any sense in any way" is a bit harsh, don't you think?

1.) The dead shards are a symbol of the recreance, reminding the live spren of the siblings the past KR killed by breaking their oaths.

2.) Having the trust and companionship of as many spren as possible is humanity's only chance at survival.

If dumping their dead shards--useful as they may be--is the key to winning more spren to the cause, it's a small sacrifice. 

Maybe all the spren will turn a blind eye to their dead siblings being tortured and used as weapons around them in battle. Maybe it won't impede their ability to trust the humans. I'm just saying it's a real possibility that as the KR expand, they and their allies will have to abandon the dead shards. I know we haven't yet seen a way to release the dead spren from their suffering, but I can't see how that's any indicator that one doesn't exist.

Edited by OathKeeper
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26 minutes ago, OathKeeper said:

This isn't a theory I'm perfectly confident on, but neither is it wholely without merit. "...doesn't make any sense in any way" is a bit harsh, don't you think?

Alright, yes, its a bit harsh :P. I will rephrase. I find it very unlikely that Rosharans will get rid of dead shards in the short run, and possibly neither in the medium run.

Part of the problem is about status. Do you see most of the alethi nobility giving up their symbol of power and status? The other is about survival. In the battle of Narak normal soldiers died like cannon fodder, and it was just an untrained group of Voidbringers, not even with thunderclasts or midnight essences. I don't see most people who own shards giving up a tool that makes them much more likely to survive a battle because the spren of a brightlord doesn't like it. Shards after all are the ultimate in property rights. Its yours, and no-one else has any say over it. Every single person who owns shards would have to give them up voluntarily, no lord or king has the authority to tell them to put them down.

In the medium or long run though, maybe they could reach some agreements. However, unless there is a way to release the spren, the spren will suffer whether they are used or not. 

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18 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Every single person who owns shards would have to give them up voluntarily, no lord or king has the authority to tell them to put them down.

This isn't necessarily the case; there could be a powerful individual forcing everyone to put them down and/or a group of such (perhaps a slightly larger group of new Knights Radiant)?

I don't think this is necessarily going to happen or if it does I don't think it will be soon but it's certainly a possibility.

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I've been on vacation the last week so I never got a chance to comment, but wow I loved these chapters.

- Kaladin punching Roshone, but not letting it regress any of the progress he's made. Felt like having your cake and eating it too, in a very good way.

- Renarin is killing me. He knows things, man. And some stuff, too. I want inside his head already!

- Where the heck is Jasnah? I kind of expected her to show up somewhere by now. Maybe her return will be the end of part I? Really looking forward to the infodump (please?) when she returns. Also looking forward to a slightly awkward Jasnah/Shallan reunion.

- Why is November 14th so far away? 

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On 9/15/2017 at 8:13 PM, maxal said:

I think it is too early to say Adolin will never be a KR. Usually this statement comes from readers just not wanting it to happen, not on real facts which makes Adolin's character, for one reason or another, unsuitable for ALL orders. We have to consider the fact his family are Radiants and he evolves close to them makes him incredibly likely to be spotted by a spren. In fact, at this point in time, the only reason why Adolin would never become a Radiant would be if ALL sprens from ALL orders deem him completely unacceptable or if he fails to crack which seems very unlikely at this point in time.

I'm not in the hardcore "Adolin-must-not-surgebind camp", but my reasoning is all story related, and has nothing to do with how the magic works or his compatibility with a given order or spren. I just think he's most interesting as the highly-competent non-surgebinder.I think @yulerule said something along the same lines.

Spoiler

For the same reason, I like David in The Reckoners and Marasi in Wax and Wayne.

I won't complain if this turns out not to be Brandon's plan for Adolin. It's just the character arc I picture him being on.

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2 minutes ago, OathKeeper said:

I'm not in the hardcore "Adolin-must-not-surgebind camp", but my reasoning is all story related, and has nothing to do with how the magic works or his compatibility with a given order or spren. I just think he's most interesting as the highly-competent non-surgebinder.I think @yulerule said something along the same lines.

  Reveal hidden contents

For the same reason, I like David in The Reckoners and Marasi in Wax and Wayne.

I won't complain if this turns out not to be Brandon's plan for Adolin. It's just the character arc I picture him being on.

Well that's the problem. I understand the argument other would prefer if the story were written in a specific way, but we have to be mindful of the world we are being set in. Being near Radiants, being close to Radiant and having your family being Radiant seriously increases your chances to become a Radiant yourself, unless you are totally unsuitable for it. It is thus more probable for Adolin to become a Radiant than for him to never ever be chosen within the rest of his life. Magic on Roshar implies sprens choosing you: it isn't you are born with or not. You grow into it and while many grew into it as children, I see no reason why Adolin can't eventually grow into it too.

I think the best story arc remains the one which yields optimum character development and optimum character development implies growth. All characters are growing, all readers are rooting for all characters to grow... except Adolin. He's basically the only one some readers pop in and say: "You know what he's fine as he is, he doesn't need growth, especially since growth may make him a Radiant". 

While I understand we can't argue personal preferences, I still feel it is doing the story a disservice to root for one character to basically remain static. Adolin is so much more than just "your average joe who knows how to fight". His character isn't a trope or an archetype, so why wish him to become one?

The other examples you have put are different, they are set in worlds where you are either born with magic or you aren't. This just isn't how it works on Alethkar.

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@maxal I don't mean this harshly, but I think this is your bias showing. There's plenty of room for growth without Radiancy. And if growth were what lead to Radiancy through attracting a spren, Adolin would be one well before Awakening his shardblade.

An argument for Adolin staying a non-surgebinder is not an argument against character growth. 

There's plenty of growth available no matter which path forward Brandon chooses to write. I'll keep rooting for the blade awakening, but if that's not what happens, I'll enjoy where Adolin grows 

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12 minutes ago, maxal said:

I think the best story arc remains the one which yields optimum character development and optimum character development implies growth. All characters are growing, all readers are rooting for all characters to grow... except Adolin. He's basically the only one some readers pop in and say: "You know what he's fine as he is, he doesn't need growth, especially since growth may make him a Radiant". 

While I understand we can't argue personal preferences, I still feel it is doing the story a disservice to root for one character to basically remain static. Adolin is so much more than just "your average joe who knows how to fight". His character isn't a trope or an archetype, so why wish him to become one?

See, but nobody is wishing him to be static. I want him to grow, I just don't think magic is necessarily the only way for a character to be dynamic and grow. In fact, in Adolin's case, I think him coping with the challenge of being surrounded by KR and not being one will be a fascinating to read about. One of his most important flaws is his adolescent pride. So let's explore how he handles being the least poweful in his family for a bit. Does will he humble himself and let Renarin shine or will he grow jealous? 

Nobody is saying he's fine or should be left where he is. Just that surgebinding isn't the only alternative to that.

As for the in-world probability of a spren choosing him, I won't contend your points. You make a sound argument. 

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I agree with some others that it will be interesting to read about Adolin's personality changes if he isn't a Radiant, at least for a while. He's going from being one of if not the best individual duelist in Alethkar to being surrounded by a family of Radiants using powers he doesn't have. I may not be a fan of Adolin remaining "normal" forever, but I think it'll be interested to read about for a while if he can't Surgebind. I want to see how he handles himself. 

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1 hour ago, OathKeeper said:

See, but nobody is wishing him to be static. I want him to grow, I just don't think magic is necessarily the only way for a character to be dynamic and grow. In fact, in Adolin's case, I think him coping with the challenge of being surrounded by KR and not being one will be a fascinating to read about. One of his most important flaws is his adolescent pride. So let's explore how he handles being the least poweful in his family for a bit. Does will he humble himself and let Renarin shine or will he grow jealous? 

Nobody is saying he's fine or should be left where he is. Just that surgebinding isn't the only alternative to that.

As for the in-world probability of a spren choosing him, I won't contend your points. You make a sound argument. 

Agreed :)

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8 hours ago, MoS03 said:

I actually think that if Adolin fit the bill for an Edgedancer Spren, and if he begins awakening his Blade, a new Spren probably wouldn't be likely to forget the old Spren Siren and begin Bonding Adolin.

I was thinking this as well. He temperament is similar to Lift's. Shallan called him mentally direct. That could be a description of Lift as well. Tends to live in the moment. Adolin as an Edgedancer would be awesome. ;)

EDIT: Less than 24 hours until 10-12. :D

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28 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I was thinking this as well. He temperament is similar to Lift's. Shallan called him mentally direct. That could be a description of Lift as well. Tends to live in the moment. Adolin as an Edgedancer would be awesome. ;)

EDIT: Less than 24 hours until 10-12. :D

Fair warning: I'm not going to be the fastest poster tomorrow. I'm going to rely on where my true talents lie: speed reading. 

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1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

I haven't been following the discussion over the weekend, so I'm totally lost, but I have to say, I think @maxal's idea that Adolin will sever his bond with his Blade and still be able to summon it is a good one.

It'd be nothing short of awesome.

I am torn because I believe that, writing-wise, it would be probably slightly better/ more balanced/ perhaps more satisfying for the purposes of the overall plot if Adolin stayed a badass normal, but I also really reaaaally love Adolin and I want him to revive his beautiful Edgedancer Blade that also probably loves him at least half as much as I do.

Just... imagine the sheer epic factor of it. His Blade picking him, just like Sureblood did. Well. I'm getting emotional only entertaining the possibility.

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1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

Well, yeah, that's what I meant: break the gem, which is generally accepted as the way one severs the bond, but he remains bonded to the Blade.

I was just attempting to clarify. The breaking of the gem is a symbolic gesture and nothing more. 

If Adolin realizes that in a conscious level, that the gemstone is a symbol of the Spren's entrapment, smashing the gem could be a necessary part to its freedom by the perception associated with it. 

The bond would remain, and it would be a slight step closer to the Blade being as it should. 

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18 hours ago, Calderis said:

@maxal I don't mean this harshly, but I think this is your bias showing. There's plenty of room for growth without Radiancy. And if growth were what lead to Radiancy through attracting a spren, Adolin would be one well before Awakening his shardblade.

An argument for Adolin staying a non-surgebinder is not an argument against character growth. 

There's plenty of growth available no matter which path forward Brandon chooses to write. I'll keep rooting for the blade awakening, but if that's not what happens, I'll enjoy where Adolin grows 

 
It isn't I am offended nor mad nor anything, so please do not take whatever is following as an attack, but I am slightly disturbed my argumentation should be reduced as "myself being biased". I believe I brought forward sufficient arguments in order to support my claim. Your response makes me feel as if my entire argumentation ought to be brushed away with the back of the hand because I wrote it. Had it come from another poster, would you have been so quick to state the post exists merely because the initiator is "biased"? 
 
I do my best to be as impartial as humanly possible and while I do have my personal preference, this specific argument falls largely outside of it.
 
So how about we summarize the facs?

1) Radiancy is not genetic. They say, when it comes to upbringing, 1/3 will come from your genes, 1/3 will come from how you were parented and 1/3 will come from the society you are evolving within. Brandon seem to agree with this as he did state while there were no genetic component to Radiancy, being raised within a family of Radiants makes it so you are more likely to behave like one and thus attract a spren. He said an adopted child had as much chances to become a Radiant, within a Radiant family, as a natural one. He did put a lot of importance onto the upbringing. Of course, this is not a false-proof argument, but if a suitable family member exists, the probability of him or her being skipped by sprens seems low.

2) Being near Radiants, being friends with Radiants, being around Radiants increase your chance at being chosen by sprens. Why? Because sprens are often looking close to existing knights to find new one which means, if you are suitable, you are highly likely to be spotted. Also, Radiants have a way to influence their entourage which means the closer you are to Radiants, the more likely you are to behave in manners which will attract sprens.

These two claims are supported by WoB. Until further notice, I consider they are our best clues as to how Radiants are being chosen. The thing which comes to mind is it isn't random: it is semi-organized and we have to acknowledge the fact Brandon gave those rules to his magic system. Thus, there is no imperative for any of the major character to remain "normal" because classic fantasy story dictates someone has to fill in the role of the "normal badass". Brandon is absolutely not required to obliged to it, but he is required to remain consistent with the rules he created himself.

It is thus becoming a Radiant is not genetic, it isn't either a matter of "the story needs a normal guy" or "I don't want Adolin to become a Radiant because there are too many Kholin Radiants" or "I prefer it this way". It is a matter of how Radiants are being chosen and this choice relies on the sprens.

Adolin's character has been raised within a family which all became Radiants. He strongly values them, he looks up to his father and he tries to be worthy of his upbringing, as much as possible. His fiancee, his guards and his potential friend also are Radiants which is another front where Adolin has the opporunity of getting the right influence. Basically, his character is surrounded by Radiants in a world where we know his particular position significantly increases his chances of being "chosen" by sprens.

Unless he is unsuitable. I however find it doubtful based on the character we have been reading so far, but if Brandon wants to write this story arc, then he has to convince me why Adolin is not chosen, why he is being skipped. It isn't a matter of explaining why he would become a Radiant, more a matter of explaining why he isn't. Given how the magic was built within SA, there are significantly more chances for Adolin to become a Radiant than for him not to become one. In the case of the second option, the author has to write in the right rational to justify it because he has just told us Adolin is exactly within the right position to be chosen. If he isn't, then we need to know why.

My last point is character progression. Others endlessly argue Adolin's character can grow even if he does not become a Radiant which is true. Problem is nearly all of speculative story arcs where he remains a "normal guy" do not involve much growth worth mentioning. This is where my "bias" can be called on as (though I hate the word, I should be able to prefer given story arcs without being accused of being "biased": nobody has the imperative to support all theories), it is my humble opinion, alternative speculative theories just aren't as interesting. Just as I could never get behind most Elhokar related theories because I felt they didn't offer plot lines I personally found interesting, the same goes here. I don't find Adolin as your average badass normal to be all that interesting. I do not fancy him keeping on being the "war general" and the "duelist" who does a bit of stuff, but never dig into the interesting aspects of the story. In shorts, I do not fancy finishing Oathbringer with Adolin being exactly the same guy he is now, I do not fancy him just merely accepting this is how things are and be gone with it. If this is what Brandon is going for, then fine, I will read it and see if I like it, but if someone asks for my opinion now, I will state it sounds horribly boring and static. Why? Because it has Adolin end up exactly where he was initially and that tends to be boring: it works for very minor characters (such as Rushu the Ardent or Jenet the stable master), but Adolin is more than a minor character. Keeping him within the same position as he is now will get old very quickly. It has worked for now, but three more books of Adolin just doing occasional "badass moves" on the battlefield might get redundant very fast.

Of course, others are arguing the character does not have to be static. Sure. He doesn't. But what else is he supposed to do? What are the alternative which make good story telling? Him dealing with not being a Radiant? Wait, we ARE getting this story arc because Adolin currently ISN'T a Radiant. I am speaking of future status, something to happen, perhaps within book 3, perhaps book 4, perhaps book 5, but for myself, "normal badass" just isn't going to be enough to call it "character development". Mind, Adolin could take another path while not becoming a Radiant, but this may fall outside the scope of the story Brandon wants to tell.
 
Just my two cents anyway. My goal is always to get optimum character development for everyone which includes Adolin and no I am not being "biased" by saying it.
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hey all...long time lurker first time poster.

I haven't had the chance to read all 22 pages of this yet, but one possible prediction jumped out at me as I reread 7-9 and hemmed and hawed over them - could Kaladin be the one who figures out how to unlock the gate at Kholinar? Perhaps in his scouting he travels there, that this is where the Hearthstone parshmen went, progresses to the fourth oath, picks up some shardplate as a result (that's just my guess, that he gains the ability to spawn/use plate at either the fourth or fifth oath), rescues a bunch of folks and gates them away to Urithiru to evade total destruction.

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44 minutes ago, maxal said:

Had it come from another poster, would you have been so quick to state the post exists merely because the initiator is "biased"? 

Yes. Yes I would. Come on Maxal. You and I have butted heads before, but that's mainly on very personal issues. I've also stood up against what I've seen as unfair treatment of you specifically. 

Everyone is biased in one way or another. Me, you, Brandon, everyone. I was by no means meaning to brush your opinion aside, or dismiss the evidence. In fact, the evidence you've presented is overwhelmingly in favor of Adolin already being a Radiant, so why isn't he? 

Here's my opinion. I think that the Stormfather may be a big enough deal that he's bypassing a rule against Radiants that hasn't been expressed, but is implied by the opinions we've seen from spren in the story. I think that the only reason Adolin isn't already a Radiant is because he is bonded to a Shardblade. 

All of your evidence, from connection to Radiants, upbringing, mindset, all of it, says that Adolin should already be a Radiant. Other than Dalinar and Gavilar, have we seen a single Radiant who already had a Shardblade? 

It's seriously nothing personal, and I agree that a good chunk of people who say Adolin shouldn't be a Radiant have reasons that are counter to the story and they don't fit. My only issue was your wording. Saying that an argument against Adolin is an argument against character growth is to broad a statement, and that was my issue of bias. 

I see three possible paths for Adolin, two of which end with him as a Radiant. 

1) He give up his Blade and becomes a Radiant through drawing a spren the Normal way. I think this is unlikely. 

2) He keeps his Blade and awakens it, becoming a Radiant through unconventional means. This is the path I most want to see. 

3) He retains his Blade and fails to awaken it, repelling any spren that would have tried to bond with him, and remains a non-surgebinder. This is, in my opinion, the most likely scenario, even if I'd much rather see option 2.

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57 minutes ago, maxal said:
Adolin's character has been raised within a family which all became Radiants. He strongly values them, he looks up to his father and he tries to be worthy of his upbringing, as much as possible. His fiancee, his guards and his potential friend also are Radiants which is another front where Adolin has the opporunity of getting the right influence. Basically, his character is surrounded by Radiants in a world where we know his particular position significantly increases his chances of being "chosen" by sprens.

Unless he is unsuitable. I however find it doubtful based on the character we have been reading so far, but if Brandon wants to write this story arc, then he has to convince me why Adolin is not chosen, why he is being skipped. It isn't a matter of explaining why he would become a Radiant, more a matter of explaining why he isn't. Given how the magic was built within SA, there are significantly more chances for Adolin to become a Radiant than for him not to become one. In the case of the second option, the author has to write in the right rational to justify it because he has just told us Adolin is exactly within the right position to be chosen. If he isn't, then we need to know why.

My last point is character progression. Others endlessly argue Adolin's character can grow even if he does not become a Radiant which is true. Problem is nearly all of speculative story arcs where he remains a "normal guy" do not involve much growth worth mentioning.

@maxal I want to first give you all due respect. Your posts color you as smart, creative, and contemplative. And your reasoning for Adolin forming a nahel bond are solid for the most part. 

That said, here are a few points of contention:

1.) There's a logical fallacy in your reasoning about probability. All the evidence you give for him being chosen can lead one to conclude that he is far more likely to be chosen than a random other person, but not more likely to be chosen than NOT to be chosen. Think in terms of a rare hereditary trait like a woman bearing twins. If her mom had twins and her grandma had twins, she is more likely to have twins than the average pregnant woman. Even so, the probability of having twins is low, just far higher than average. Adolin is more likely than some random dude, but we actually don't know if he is more likely to be bonded than to not be. We know too little about the process of spren choosing humans to say either way. Sorry to be nitpicky, but I studied stats and probability in college and this fallacy is a pet peeve.

2.) My more important point is based on character arc. I don't blame you for not seeing a good non-radiant arc for him. It's up to each of our imaginations, after all. So here's what I see: everyone around Adolin is growing in terms of magic and oaths. He has to combat feelings of inadequacy more and more as the others grow in competence, including his brother that he used to have to protect. So Adolin finds other ways to grow. He represents to the reader the truth that a non-radiant can be equally involved in fighting Odium. He makes choices relating to his murder of Sadeas. Either he owns up and takes responsibility or he keeps it hidden and is discovered. His relationships are strained. If he's exiled he finds a way to contribute to the cause from the outside. If he's forgiven, he is given an important assignment as highest non-radiant commander. At this point there are a thousand things Brandon can do to bring Adolin to a new place from where he started. We ALL understand how character arcs work and we all want him to have one. 

You acknowledge that those in the opposite camp from you don't want him to be static, but then you go on to insist that the only way for Adolin to be dynamic is to bind a spren. 

If you really gave an honest effort to imagine a cool story of growth and change for Adolin, without surgebinding, I bet you could do it. Seriously, take 5 minutes and try it. Dude is INVESTIGATING A MURDER HE  COMMITTED. There are a lot of cool growth opportunities for him without uttering a single ideal or oath.

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