[OB] Oathbringer chapters 7-9

[Andy92]

6 hours ago, Sunraiser said:

Kal's brother is only a baby at the moment, but we've got this convenient gap between books 5 and 6 which give him an ideal chance to age to the point where he can be a character with significant involvement in the back five. Dare I say it, but Odium's Champion? Kal mentions his mother's age, and how unusual it is for her to have had a child - combine that with the familiar eyes... well Oroden's eyes could be nicely similar to Kaladin's - making them look familiar to Dalinar.

I think he has potential to be one of the main characters in the second arc if there's a time gap between 5 - 6. But with his name meaning Child of Peace...I'm personally rooting for a more positive storyline with that character.

And I also don't want to have to wait that long to find out who the champion is since it's already becoming such a big deal at the beginning of book 3. 

[maxal]

19 hours ago, Pattern said:

That is perfectly fine. How boring would it be if everyone found the same things interesting ;-)
I wouldn't like another fall and rise of a character. We've had enough of that with Kaladin in my opinion. I don't need a repetition with Adolin. And I would not say the chapters until now were superfluous, we've got a mystery novel hidden in Oathbringer - that adds a new flavour to the series.

Agreed.

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. My approach has always only been that spren are subject to human/parshendi thoughts and Adolin talking and personifying his Shardblade regularly (he is quite emotional towards it before his duels) could eventually lead to a revival. Also Adolin fits the profile of an Edgedancer (what the Blade seems from). More about that elsewhere.

But ducks are tasty, too. Hmmm.

In another thread there is a very nice profiling why Adolin fits to the Edgedancers. I found it very convincing.
One thing coming to my mind right now is that Adolin cares for all his lost soldiers (for example at the hunt in WoK), while most other Alethi lighteyes forget them, they don't really count as losses for the majority. Adolin cares and remembers.

Indeed. We can't not all enjoy the same things. I would however point out the rise and fall of Adolin is unlikely to bear much resemblance to Kaladin's story for the simple reason they are very different character. They do not react the same way to events. The story would never be a repetition of Kaladin more importantly because Adolin is where Kaladin never has been, he's a Prince, he's got it all while Kaladin always yearned for more. I say both characters are so widely different I do not fear Adolin's story arc would feel repetitive.

Nothing is known about the duck word, but the most frequent interpretation is Adolin's reflexes merely kicked in.

I have used Adolin being disturbed by the 50 men who died at the useless chamsfiend hunt and I have used him saying the name of his dead men in anger as signs he does have the ability to remember. He does not forget. He does not want to forget. I have always thought it gave the right ground basis for the Edgedancers, but we'll have to see how he evolves.

15 hours ago, DSC01 said:

I don't think that they're working against Dalinar. I think they're working for him. Or at least, for the sake of this hypothesis. I have no idea who is responsible for the copycat murder and will concede that it is possible that Ialai or even Renarin is responsible.

There is precedent for secret societies to work both for and against Dalinar (different factions of Diagramists did both in WoR). That's why I suspect them: if killing a Kholin ally was meant to shift blame away from Sadeas's enemies, a secret society seems the most likely culprit. The only reason that Renarin is not my prime suspect is that that would be sad.

I fail to see how murdering an ally of Dalinar is helping him.

4 hours ago, heridfel said:

If Shardblades were reasonably generic in appearance, then stealing one from the guy you just killed isn't a completely terrible idea, presuming you can somehow smuggle it away. Of course, they are rare enough that it'd be pretty reasonable for anyone you know to ask, "Hey, where did that Shardblade come from?" That is an awkward question - the sort that leads to a whole bunch of darkeyes getting killed. But when each blade is distinct enough that someone looking at it says "Hey, why do you have the Shardblade of the guy who was murdered a little while ago?"... yeah, good luck convincing people that you found it tossed out a window.

They aren't generic: each is unique.

42 minutes ago, OathKeeper said:

I agree that he won't be a KR, but why must some remain to wield the dead shards? I kind of think the Stormfather or else the collective bound-spren of the refounded KR will insist on doing away with "monstrosities".

In fact, I wonder if there's a way to release the dead spren. It seems cruel to keep the shards around. 

I think it is too early to say Adolin will never be a KR. Usually this statement comes from readers just not wanting it to happen, not on real facts which makes Adolin's character, for one reason or another, unsuitable for ALL orders. We have to consider the fact his family are Radiants and he evolves close to them makes him incredibly likely to be spotted by a spren. In fact, at this point in time, the only reason why Adolin would never become a Radiant would be if ALL sprens from ALL orders deem him completely unacceptable or if he fails to crack which seems very unlikely at this point in time.

[yulerule]

I think he won't be KR from a storytelling point of view. Like, I'm pretty sure if half of the Kholin family are KR, and the other half isn't it can drive some character development.

As for doing away with the dead shards. Maybe eventually, but I got the feeling that only a limited number of spren are establishing Nahel bonds, not enough for an army against the Voidbringers. So they might as well use the dead shards to help against all void creatures.

[Pattern]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

I would however point out the rise and fall of Adolin is unlikely to bear much resemblance to Kaladin's story for the simple reason they are very different character. They do not react the same way to events. The story would never be a repetition of Kaladin more importantly because Adolin is where Kaladin never has been, he's a Prince, he's got it all while Kaladin always yearned for more. I say both characters are so widely different I do not fear Adolin's story arc would feel repetitive.

You have a point there, his story arc might not feel too repetitive if done well. Still, I would enjoy it more if Adolin were able to wiggle out of his tight spot. I just don't want him to suffer for doing the right thing (which I think he did in killing Sadeas).

4 hours ago, maxal said:

We have to consider the fact his family are Radiants and he evolves close to them makes him incredibly likely to be spotted by a spren. In fact, at this point in time, the only reason why Adolin would never become a Radiant would be if ALL sprens from ALL orders deem him completely unacceptable or if he fails to crack which seems very unlikely at this point in time.

Adolin also might crack when he (and we) find out how his mother died. Also, there is a very close person who has been forgotten that he can remember.
I will remember those who have been forgotten.

4 hours ago, Andy92 said:

And I also don't want to have to wait that long to find out who the champion is since it's already becoming such a big deal at the beginning of book 3. 

My guess on Odium's champion would not be amongst the humans. I suspect Venli to be it, since she has been working to bring the Everstorm for quite a long time. Her presense in buying Szeth in he prologue indicates for me, that she was doing Odium's work even then.
The familiarity Dalinar feels in the vision would be the Thrill, even Adolin can sense it in is fight with Eshonai in her while he himself is not affected by it (which in itself indicates that Adolin is protected from it by his (quite but not totally dead) spren - or Nergaoul leaves out humans to support only the Parshendi in this batlle)

 

Anyone with new clues about Renarin? I have been fishing in WoK for a while now and still come up with nothing except in chapter 19: Starfalls. There is the mentioning of one Harkaylain who says the Desolation were close and he were not often wrong. More information is cut off.
This looks at least like Renarin's prediction of the Everstorm, so some kind of precognition or guessing the future was present with the Knights Radiant of old.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Pattern

[WhiteLeeopard]

6 hours ago, OathKeeper said:

I agree that he won't be a KR, but why must some remain to wield the dead shards? I kind of think the Stormfather or else the collective bound-spren of the refounded KR will insist on doing away with "monstrosities".

In fact, I wonder if there's a way to release the dead spren. It seems cruel to keep the shards around. 

I doubt they will get rid of all the Shards, it doesn't make sense in any way. KR are much more powerful than Shardbearers, but even in old times they didn't fight alone. Rather nearly all of humanity fought. Battles in which 9 out of 10 people died. Shardbearers make a person much, much stronger and tougher than a person without them. They may not be as awesome as they were before the KR returned, but still a Shardbearer will have much greater chances of surviving the Desolation than a normal soldier. 

True, the spren are suffering, but they have been suffering for thousands of years. A few more decades won't kill them (any worse than they are). Then, they have no clue how to release them. Only theory I believe of the ones I've seen (other than revival, which we know is very hard) is destroying them with Nightblood. Which I'm not sure is an improvement. As for not using the Shardblades, when you have them lying around and the spren will suffer all the same, that just seems dumb. The spren may not like seing Shardblades used, but in war some distatesful things are done. If the worst they have to do is use dead Shardblades to survive, they can count themselves lucky. 

3 hours ago, yulerule said:

I think he won't be KR from a storytelling point of view. Like, I'm pretty sure if half of the Kholin family are KR, and the other half isn't it can drive some character development.

Please remember knowing a KR increases your chances of a spren choosing you. This specially applies for tight knit families like the Kholins. As maxal said, saying someone can't be a KR because they are a Kholin seems a weak argument. They'd basically have to be unbroken or incompatible with all orders. I think this idea that having "everyone of this family be a magic user is unbelivable" are thinking of other magic systems where magic tended to be semi random, or at the least uncontrolled. Thats not the case here. A spren chooses someone. Then if successful other spren looking for a bondmate come to check out their friends and family. If they are already close to important events thats a plus.

[rjl]

Seeing Adolin revive a blade and become an Edgedancer is one of the things I'm looking forward to most in the next book (I hope it doesn't take two books to happen.)

 

Though I'd also very much like to meet a Releaser. And I'd also really like to see two or more members for several of the orders interacting with each other - if the new Knights are meant to get anything like the scale of the old ones there should be loads of them soon.

Edited September 16, 2017 by rjl

[WhiteLeeopard]

31 minutes ago, rjl said:

Seeing Adolin revive a blade and become an Edgedancer is one of the things I'm looking forward to most in the next book (I hope it doesn't take two books to happen.)

Keep in mind this is just a fan theory, it might never happen. Although if Adolin dies or worse, doesn't appear, there will be a scream of anguish heard all through the 17th shard. 

31 minutes ago, rjl said:

Though I'd also very much like to meet a Releaser. And I'd also really like to see two or more members for several of the orders interacting with each other - if the new Knights are meant to get anything like the scale of the old ones there should be loads of them soon

The problem of many knights appearing are:

1. Spren don' trust humans any more
2. Humans don't have the mentality for the 10 orders en masse. Obviously can find some good people around, but the vast majority seem incredibly unsuited to be radiants. Full of hate, lack of morality, no honor, selfishness, no code to follow etc

Still, I'm sure more knights will apear soon. But they may take years to swear the first ideal alone. The ones which have the best chances of advancing quickly are bridge 4, as they saw how it happened, and have a good idea of what is required of them. And yet, this greater understanding which they have was the standard and nothing special before the recreance. Which shows the bad shape rosharans are in vs odium in an immediate assault.

Edited September 16, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Yata]

36 minutes ago, rjl said:

Seeing Adolin revive a blade and become an Edgedancer is one of the things I'm looking forward to most in the next book (I hope it doesn't take two books to happen.)

Maybe Adolin will be not able at all to revive his Blade. I don't mean he has no the requirement to be a good Radiant, but if he is not fit to become an Edgedancer...He can't fix an Edgedancer's Blade.

(In this topic I didn't considerate the whole "broken" requirement at all)

[Elena]

11 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The problem of many knights appearing are:

1. Spren don' trust humans any more
2. Humans don't have the mentality for the 10 orders en masse. Obviously can find some good people around, but the vast majority seem incredibly unsuited to be radiants. Full of hate, lack of morality, no honor, selfishness, no code to follow etc

I see your point but I think we can't be reasonably sure about 2) - most of our main POVs and main/secondary characters are Alethi and the Alethi are a self-serving, bloodthirsty bunch, but perhaps other people on Roshar are more suited to be Radiants, especially those who don't follow Vorinism (although, of course... if they don't follow Vorinism, how much/what do they know about Radiants and Desolations?).

Anyway I'm expecting 1) to be the bigger problem. There are more sprens now, as per Pattern, but they will probably wait to see if the proto-Radiants are successful before crossing over, so I'm thinking the number of sprens willing to bond a future Radiant will start to really swell in a couple of years or so.

[maxal]

6 hours ago, Pattern said:

You have a point there, his story arc might not feel too repetitive if done well. Still, I would enjoy it more if Adolin were able to wiggle out of his tight spot. I just don't want him to suffer for doing the right thing (which I think he did in killing Sadeas).

Let's trust Brandon to handle it right. I too do not enjoy when authors make characters more miserable then needed. A good author knows when it is time to push for drama and when it is time to wrap it into a satisfying conclusion. I have no fear Brandon is able to jungle with the two, hence Adolin's story are will be good. I once feared it wouldn't be because the book planning implies he wouldn't have a role to play until very late in the story which, considering how close he is to the main narrative, I found illogical. Turns out we all misinterpreted the plan.

So yes, in the end, I do expect Adolin to come to accept what he has done and to have other characters accept it as well, but I will say it may impact the relationship he has with some. It may be for the greater good, in the end.

6 hours ago, Pattern said:

Adolin also might crack when he (and we) find out how his mother died. Also, there is a very close person who has been forgotten that he can remember.
I will remember those who have been forgotten.

I love this idea. What will break Adolin really is hard to predict: it can go so many ways and he has been very resilient so far. I really like your idea: after all he has been through, finding out the truth about his mother is what gets to him. It may be the straw which breaks the camel's back and pushes Adolin over the edge.

49 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Keep in mind this is just a fan theory, it might never happen. Although if Adolin dies or worse, doesn't appear, there will be a scream of anguish heard all through the 17th shard. 

Mine?  I don't think Adolin dies within the near future. And yeah, the Shardblade theory is a fan's theory, but Brandon has left clues he might, just might, go down this route with the character, so I'll keep my hopes up.

43 minutes ago, Yata said:

Maybe Adolin will be not able at all to revive his Blade. I don't mean he has no the requirement to be a good Radiant, but if he is not fit to become an Edgedancer...He can't fix an Edgedancer's Blade.

(In this topic I didn't considerate the whole "broken" requirement at all)

The only order I see Adolin belonging to are the Edgedancers. It isn't a natural pick for him, considering his upbringing, but I do think this remains the only order inline with his inner self, his real self, you know the one he never lets anyone see?

[lastofus]

6 hours ago, Pattern said:

Adolin also might crack when he (and we) find out how his mother died. Also, there is a very close person who has been forgotten that he can remember.
I will remember those who have been forgotten.

You know what! It totally makes sense. I can see the break point be his father. He doesn't remember anything of his wife, Adolin's mother. He could "cure" that too... bring back the memories.

[NoiseSpren]

On 12. 9. 2017 at 3:40 PM, PatronOfRot said:

I hope Kaladin's kid brother doesn't turn out to be Odium's Champion.

No, I am pretty sure it's Eshonai.

And he is too small.

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Mine?  I don't think Adolin dies within the near future. And yeah, the Shardblade theory is a fan's theory, but Brandon has left clues he might, just might, go down this route with the character, so I'll keep my hopes up.

Now, now, I did not specify , it would be all Adolin fans, and he has many here. But yes, yours would be the loudest ^^. Personally I would feel betrayed by Brandon, its never a good feeling when an author seems to betray his characters for plot devices. An I hope to never, ever feel that from Brandon. He always ties his stories so well, I have hope he never will.

2 hours ago, maxal said:

The only order I see Adolin belonging to are the Edgedancers. It isn't a natural pick for him, considering his upbringing, but I do think this remains the only order inline with his inner self, his real self, you know the one he never lets anyone see?

I think he'd also be good for the Stonewards. And yes, despite your dislike for the idea he could probably join the Dustbringers in the right circumstances. So thats 3 possible spren types.

[Yata]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

The only order I see Adolin belonging to are the Edgedancers. It isn't a natural pick for him, considering his upbringing, but I do think this remains the only order inline with his inner self, his real self, you know the one he never lets anyone see?

I am unsure if my words was misunderstood.

Didn't mean Adolin can't revive his Blade because it's not Edgedancer-compatible, I meant that regardless all his effort Adolin could be not enough Edgedancer-like for the task. Radiant----hood? (we could call it like that I suppose) is not a binary option, someone could have enough "attitude" to attract a Spren but not enough to go too further in the Oaths' progression. Has Adolin the right pedigree for an Edgedancer ? Maybe yes (also if I am still confused about Edgledancers' mantra because I see it blurs with Truthwatchers) but has He "enough" of it for the task ? I don't know...Reviving a Blade is magnitude harder than attracting a Cultivationspren and bond with it.

Personally I will be fine with all three outcome about Adolin's future. Maybe he will not become a Radiant maybe he will, if he will this could be because he revived his Blade or maybe because he attracted a whole new Spren....As far as we know Adolin could be an ok Edgedancer but an Amazing *INSERT UNKNOWN ORDER HERE* (like Ym's case where he was fit for two Orders)

[yulerule]

6 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I doubt they will get rid of all the Shards, it doesn't make sense in any way. KR are much more powerful than Shardbearers, but even in old times they didn't fight alone. Rather nearly all of humanity fought. Battles in which 9 out of 10 people died. Shardbearers make a person much, much stronger and tougher than a person without them. They may not be as awesome as they were before the KR returned, but still a Shardbearer will have much greater chances of surviving the Desolation than a normal soldier. 

True, the spren are suffering, but they have been suffering for thousands of years. A few more decades won't kill them (any worse than they are). Then, they have no clue how to release them. Only theory I believe of the ones I've seen (other than revival, which we know is very hard) is destroying them with Nightblood. Which I'm not sure is an improvement. As for not using the Shardblades, when you have them lying around and the spren will suffer all the same, that just seems dumb. The spren may not like seing Shardblades used, but in war some distatesful things are done. If the worst they have to do is use dead Shardblades to survive, they can count themselves lucky. 

Please remember knowing a KR increases your chances of a spren choosing you. This specially applies for tight knit families like the Kholins. As maxal said, saying someone can't be a KR because they are a Kholin seems a weak argument. They'd basically have to be unbroken or incompatible with all orders. I think this idea that having "everyone of this family be a magic user is unbelivable" are thinking of other magic systems where magic tended to be semi random, or at the least uncontrolled. Thats not the case here. A spren chooses someone. Then if successful other spren looking for a bondmate come to check out their friends and family. If they are already close to important events thats a plus.

I know that, but I'm not talking from a magic mechanics point of view, but meta. I mean Navani is part of the family, yet there has been no discussion that she'll be a KR. Yes, being part of a family that has multiple Radiants is an attractant, but it still is no guarantee.

[WhiteLeeopard]

4 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I know that, but I'm not talking from a magic mechanics point of view, but meta. I mean Navani is part of the family, yet there has been no discussion that she'll be a KR. Yes, being part of a family that has multiple Radiants is an attractant, but it still is no guarantee.

There has been a little talk of Navani been a KR, mainly focused on fabrials, but yes not much. I suspect part of the reason the focus is on Adolin is he is a warrior. He is going to fight. And like I say above, chances of survival for normal humans even with Shards are very low during a Desolation. Not to mention one of Roshar's greatest warriors as a KR would be a huge asset on the battlefield. The question when considering what someone could do as a KR is often based on what they could offer as one. And then he is just a favorite of some, *cough, vehement groups, cough*. 

[maxal]

1 hour ago, lastofus said:

You know what! It totally makes sense. I can see the break point be his father. He doesn't remember anything of his wife, Adolin's mother. He could "cure" that too... bring back the memories.

I always thought Adolin's breaking point would be his family, either the strain of feeling he has failed them or finding out the father he worships isn't the hero he thought he was.

24 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Now, now, I did not specify , it would be all Adolin fans, and he has many here. But yes, yours would be the loudest ^^. Personally I would feel betrayed by Brandon, its never a good feeling when an author seems to betray his characters for plot devices. An I hope to never, ever feel that from Brandon. He always ties his stories so well, I have hope he never will.

I do not get this feeling from Brandon either. While it is true he said he would kill some characters, I have never seen him use death as a shocking device. Therefore, if an important character die, it will be because death is the next logical step for this character, not because Brandon wants to create an "emotional moment". Hence, he won't just kill Adolin because readers would be sadden, he will kill Adolin is it ultimately makes up for the best story and so far, it doesn't.

27 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think he'd also be good for the Stonewards. And yes, despite your dislike for the idea he could probably join the Dustbringers in the right circumstances. So thats 3 possible spren types.

I don't see him as a Stoneward: Adolin isn't one to waste human life in a useless battle. If beaten, he will retreat, he will not stand "no matter what". He will not purposefully choose a hopeless battle to fight nor will he willingly give his life to defend a pass if there are other options. The only times we will see him "stand no matter what" is when his back is against the wall, but unlike Stonewards, he will not seek to find himself into this position.

I don't see him as a Dustbringer because the idea bravery means the ability to fight is over-done. Bravery is about facing one's fears and Adolin has never faced his. We see it early in Oathbringer: he isn't admitting his guilt, he isn't facing the music. He is terrified over what may happen. He has no desire to bravely stand against what he fears the most: he wants to avoid it at all cost and if events may force him to face the music, eventually, this isn't a path he will purposefully chose. Hence, I find him very unsuitable for this order.

26 minutes ago, Yata said:

I am unsure if my words was misunderstood.

Didn't mean Adolin can't revive his Blade because it's not Edgedancer-compatible, I meant that regardless all his effort Adolin could be not enough Edgedancer-like for the task. Radiant----hood? (we could call it like that I suppose) is not a binary option, someone could have enough "attitude" to attract a Spren but not enough to go too further in the Oaths' progression. Has Adolin the right pedigree for an Edgedancer ? Maybe yes (also if I am still confused about Edgledancers' mantra because I see it blurs with Truthwatchers) but has He "enough" of it for the task ? I don't know...Reviving a Blade is magnitude harder than attracting a Cultivationspren and bond with it.

Personally I will be fine with all three outcome about Adolin's future. Maybe he will not become a Radiant maybe he will, if he will this could be because he revived his Blade or maybe because he attracted a whole new Spren....As far as we know Adolin could be an ok Edgedancer but an Amazing *INSERT UNKNOWN ORDER HERE* (like Ym's case where he was fit for two Orders)

I understood what you meant, but I disagree. I find Adolin to be very suitable for the Edgedancers, though I would argue he would not be their ideal pick. In shorts, I doubt the circle would choose him (which isn't to say he wouldn't be a good Edgedancer, he just doesn't seem to be the kind of individual they are currently looking for), but deep down in his core, I think he has the forming of one. So while I do agree someone may not have enough of one thing to attract a spren, I find it doubtful with Adolin: there are many ways he could grow and seeing how surrounded he is by Radiants, I find it doubtful he wouldn't. What may give him a slow learning curve is the fact he now idolize Radiants, he sees them with awe: he may think he will never live up to their ideals and THIS could prevent him from becoming one more then personality incompatibility.

My ideal progression for Adolin is the one yielding the maximum character progression. Right now, I find Edgedancer offers something special for him, something out of the box, something we wouldn't have predicted within WoK. Also, I find the idea of Adolin learning how to heal people oddly fascinating and... fitting. Much more than soldering.

[WhiteLeeopard]

12 minutes ago, maxal said:

I don't see him as a Stoneward: Adolin isn't one to waste human life in a useless battle. If beaten, he will retreat, he will not stand "no matter what". He will not purposefully choose a hopeless battle to fight nor will he willingly give his life to defend a pass if there are other options. The only times we will see him "stand no matter what" is when his back is against the wall, but unlike Stonewards, he will not seek to find himself into this position.

He would if it would save the lives of his men and friends. Granted, he wouldn't stand for no reason, but if it gives those he cares about the best chance of survival he would be at the head of the hopeless cause.

12 minutes ago, maxal said:

I don't see him as a Dustbringer because the idea bravery means the ability to fight is over-done. Bravery is about facing one's fears and Adolin has never faced his. We see it early in Oathbringer: he isn't admitting his guilt, he isn't facing the music. He is terrified over what may happen. He has no desire to bravely stand against what he fears the most: he wants to avoid it at all cost and if events may force him to face the music, eventually, this isn't a path he will purposefully chose. Hence, I find him very unsuitable for this order.

I'm not sure he feels guilty of what he did. In fact I highly suspect he would do it all over again, as it needed to be done. He may regret the circumstances, but not the final action. He isn't admitting he did it publicly, or even to his family as it is a dumb choice. His father would lose lots of standing, and if he said it to his family Dalinar would punish him. Which would also have major negative consequences, from losing his right hand, to hurting his family deeply and showing not only he will not protect his family by dealing with the problems himself, but he will not stand by them when they do protect their family. I'm in the boat that thinks Renarin and Adolin love each other very, very deeply, and any such action by Dalinar would pull Renarin away from Dalinar. I even think Navani would be majorly pissed, as she views Adolin more as a son than anything else. Adolin likely knows all of this, as he understands his family quite well. Bravely proclaiming what he did is not courage, its stupid. However, its true he would likely need to face many of his fears (abandonment and perfection issues) before been suitable for the Dustbringers. Its just a path I see as open to him, albeit unlikely to be travelled.

Final point...Adolin may not be the ideal soldier, but considering he has been groomed for it all his life, began training at 6, and started leading armies at 16, I suspect whether he is ideal or not will not matter. He should probably realize there are other things he can do, but I doubt he would ever leave soldiering behind.

Edited September 16, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[maxal]

15 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

He would if it would save the lives of his men and friends. Granted, he wouldn't stand for no reason, but if it gives those he cares about the best chance of survival he would be at the head of the hopeless cause.

We do not know much about Stonewards except their first ideal is "I will stand" and they had the tendency to choose indefensible positions they would guard up until they are killed. I honestly do not see how the ideal "I will stand", the deeply honorable ways of this order and the fact they would put their life at risks just for the shake of it (not to defend family members, they would just take up the most likely position to get them killed) would make interesting character progression for Adolin. He needs not to learn "to stand", he will stand if he has to, but this hardly is a guiding motto for him, this hardly is a position he would defend nor seek which isn't to say he wouldn't do it if he absolutely has to. 

Adolin's character is strongly defined by several things: his inner sense of morality which always takes the precedence over this father's codes and laws, his inner sense of "right" and "wrong", his tendency to want to fix the "wrongs" he sees, his eagerness to help in any way he can even if very small and his struggles at being himself, at accepting himself and at seeing how it weights next to what others expect of him. It isn't about facing his fears, about being brave nor about standing nor defending, it is about right, wrong and what he can do to help, no matter if it implies fighting or not. He isn't solely defined by his ability to fight even if he sees himself as a soldier.

Thus I really do not read Adolin as a good Stoneward nor do I think it makes the most interesting progression for him. Their ideals really doesn't bring out anything out of Adolin's character and it definitely renders all the little things he has done meaningless. It just doesn't fit.

22 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm not sure he feels guilty of what he did. In fact I highly suspect he would do it all over again, as it needed to be done. He may regret the circumstances, but not the final action. He isn't admitting he did it publicly, or even to his family as it is a dumb choice. His father would lose lots of standing, and if he said it to his family Dalinar would punish him. Which would also have major negative consequences, from losing his right hand, to hurting his family deeply and showing not only he will not protect his family by dealing with the problems himself, but he will not stand by them when they do protect their family. I'm in the boat that thinks Renarin and Adolin love each other very, very deeply, and any such action by Dalinar would pull Renarin away from Dalinar. I even think Navani would be majorly pissed, as she views Adolin more as a son than anything else. Adolin likely knows all of this, as he understands his family quite well. Bravely proclaiming what he did is not courage, its stupid. However, its true he would likely need to face many of his fears (abandonment and perfection issues) before been suitable for the Dustbringers. Its just a path I see as open to him, albeit unlikely to be travelled.

Final point...Adolin may not be the ideal soldier, but considering he has been groomed for it all his life, began training at 6, and started leading armies at 16, I suspect whether he is ideal or not will not matter. He should probably realize there are other things he can do, but I doubt he would ever leave soldiering behind.

I don't think he feels guilty for killing Sadeas, but I do think he is unable to admit the truth, not because he fears it would harm his father, but because he just can't. He can't break down the expectations others have put on him, he cant's fail them. Also, Adolin's character has been consistently afraid to be himself, afraid to show his vulnerable side, afraid of relationships, afraid he would fail his father, afraid he would not be strong enough for his family: fear is important with his character though he does not fear fighting.

So while I do agree Adolin is unlikely to stop being a soldier, it'd be nice if he were to acknowledge this other side of him, the one which just wants to help, to be good, to do the right thing and I sincerely do not think Dustbringer brings it out of him. Sure he may face his fears, eventually, but I fail to see what this order adds to his character but a bunch of showing powers.

Just because he is a soldier does not mean he'd be pick by an order revolving around fighting: sprens do not care what you do in your life, they care about what you are and deep down, Adolin is no soldier, not within his heart.

[What's a Seawolf?]

Late to the party this week, but two quick points.

Kal's brother is either a major player in the back half, or Odium's champion via the death rattle. Possibly both, assuming Kal refuses to kill him. (Which could make for some GREAT character development and introspective, being the one whose being alive is responsible for Odium being free.)

Shallan being unable to draw Urithiru has to do with the city itself, not her. Maybe it had some serious cognitive defenses or properties, and she's picking up on that trying to sketch it. (Similiar to spotting the hiding liespren in drawings.) Her attempted sketches will lead to some critical discovery about the city.

[Darvys]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

We do not know much about Stonewards except their first ideal is "I will stand" and they had the tendency to choose indefensible positions they would guard up until they are killed. I honestly do not see how the ideal "I will stand", the deeply honorable ways of this order and the fact they would put their life at risks just for the shake of it (not to defend family members, they would just take up the most likely position to get them killed) would make interesting character progression for Adolin. He needs not to learn "to stand", he will stand if he has to, but this hardly is a guiding motto for him, this hardly is a position he would defend nor seek which isn't to say he wouldn't do it if he absolutely has to. 

You make them sound like suicidal adrenaline junkies when that's not at all how i understand it, they don't just choose to risk their lives for the sake of it, but say in a battlefield, if victory rests on a position being held at any cost, that's where you'll find the stonewards, they'll stand where other men and women would be overwhelmed. I don't see how that's any different from what you say Adolin would do.

Still i'm completely sold on the blade revival path, it's something we have to see at some point and honestly what better candidate than Adolin ?

[What's a Seawolf?]

And if I could add just one more thing...

Am I the only one who gets absurdly excited whenever Azir is mentioned?

Because Azir means a certain pancake eating shardfork bearing best character ever. And her interacting with all our mains is worth a series on it's own

[maxal]

42 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Late to the party this week, but two quick points.

Kal's brother is either a major player in the back half, or Odium's champion via the death rattle. Possibly both, assuming Kal refuses to kill him. (Which could make for some GREAT character development and introspective, being the one whose being alive is responsible for Odium being free.)

Shallan being unable to draw Urithiru has to do with the city itself, not her. Maybe it had some serious cognitive defenses or properties, and she's picking up on that trying to sketch it. (Similiar to spotting the hiding liespren in drawings.) Her attempted sketches will lead to some critical discovery about the city.

I would really, really, really hate for Oroden to become a sacrificial lamb or anything but Kaladin's cute little brother.

32 minutes ago, Darvys said:

You make them sound like suicidal adrenaline junkies when that's not at all how i understand it, they don't just choose to risk their lives for the sake of it, but say in a battlefield, if victory rests on a position being held at any cost, that's where you'll find the stonewards, they'll stand where other men and women would be overwhelmed. I don't see how that's any different from what you say Adolin would do.

Still i'm completely sold on the blade revival path, it's something we have to see at some point and honestly what better candidate than Adolin ?

I meant they seemed the kind of order who would take an order to defend a pass and they would stand by it no matter what. They would never retreat, they would never back down, they would follow their initial idea to the death if needs be. The Adolin I read would never go for it, even if he has order to defend a pass, even if a lot depends on it, upon seeing him defeated, he would cut his loses and retreat to a strategical point in order to form another plan. I honestly do not think Adolin would stand at all cost, not as per what we were told of Taln. All in all, Stonewards seem way too honorable than Adolin. It isn't Adolin isn't honorable, but there are things he considers more important than his honor and for this reason, I definitely think he would be a poor candidate for any honor-aligned order. 

So while yes Adolin would stand, he wouldn't do it at all cost. He would always try for another strategy then the desperate stand. He would never be willing to go to the suicide mission, but he might do it if he thinks there are no other choices. However, when push comes to shoves, Adolin will always do what he feels is right and it may not be "standing still".

We don't have to see a Blade revival story, but it'd be nice to have it.

[The One Who Connects]

On 9/12/2017 at 3:14 PM, robardin said:

He had it on his shoulder when he arrived by Oathgate at the end of Words of Radiance, and that was the last we've seen of it. Presumably it's in Dalinar's custodianship.

Hey, I wonder if an Honorblade would operate an Oathgate as well as a Shardblade would.

Have this.

Quote

While we're on this topic, I asked Brandon something related to the Honorblades, and got a neat little piece of information. I'd completely forgotten about it until today, but here you guys go.

There's minor Oathbringer spoilers, though, so open the spoiler at a small, small risk (considering that I didn't get RAFO'd, it's not really that significant).

Spoiler

This makes me think that if Elhokar is being sent to Kholinar, and is given the Honorblade, that they will do it via the Oathgate. We know that it should be unlocked on the Local Side already, Jasnah mentioned having tried to unlock it herself at some point in WoK. Elhokar(and a small scouting party) could arrive within seconds. Given the recent riots and current radio-silence, by all estimates Kholinar will be a sight to behold. Might even be worth a short Elhokar PoV chapter to see what's going on down there.

---

On 9/12/2017 at 2:45 PM, GeneralStu said:

I have a question. What language does Oroden mean Child of Peace in? Is it the Alethi language and they don't translate it to English in the book because it is a proper noun or is it a different in book language? 

Oroden isn't based off a Herald's name, so I imagine that the name literally means that in Alethi.

Quote

[01:23:03]

Questioner: Did Kaladin’s name come from anywhere in particular?

Brandon: No.  I’m sure the word paladin was in the back of my head, but it’s not like he shares much with like an actual paladin.  His name was Merin in the initial version and it was--  it didn’t work, he wasn’t a Merin and all the fans-- all the readers were like “this just doesn’t work” so I spent years hunting for the right name for him, and that’s the one I ended up with.  It’s really based-- it’s Kalak.  Most of the names you’ll find are based off one of the Heralds in some way.  So he’s KALA + DIN, Kalak and din is a suffix.

Isaac: We do have a meaning for it.  Can I tell them the meaning?

Brandon: Ehhh, have we canonized it?

Isaac: We have canonized it, and we have told people before.

Brandon: Then yeah.

Isaac: It means “Born unto Eternity”.

Brandon: ...I mean, it means that in the same way that names mean something, like my name means…  But when they’re naming him that they aren’t thinking that.  What they are doing is picking one of the Heralds and making a name out of it.  But my name technically means “Dweller by the Beacon”, but really what it means is “He was the son of Alexander”.

Kaladin says "child of peace" out loud, so that has to be what it means in the eyes of the people around him. If it was an inner thought, then it could have been more for us as readers, but a spoken line is for the people around him.

On 9/13/2017 at 2:41 PM, robardin said:

I quickly did a scan of passages where Renarin says something in TWoK.

That was your first mistake. Per Argent:

Quote

Oh, the beard strokage is real. I'll say that The Page does not have Renarin's name on it in my US hardcover, how's that for a hint?

This being said, I don't think you can reasonably deduce it. Nothing on that page points to Renarin, so for all you know, it might be something in Rysn's interlude that's the reveal (it's not). So while you can guess, it will be just that - a guess.

---

On 9/14/2017 at 4:57 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

Main reason why Adolin as Dustbringer was dropped was a WoB saying we haven't seen a pov from a future Dustbringer yet. Of course could just be a debunked WoB, it has happened before, either by mistake or changing his mind afterwards .

That WoB said the circumstances regarding Dustbringer PoV were.. complicated.

Quote

Questioner: Have we--  I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant.

Brandon: Yes, I think you have.

Questioner: Is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character?

Brandon: One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.

Questioner: Haven’t been yet?

Brandon: Nnnnoooo, not yet, I don’t think.  But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.

Questioner: I don’t.

Brandon: Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order.  If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order.

Questioner: [Have we met someone from the Dustbringers?]

Brandon: Well… Dustbringers are really complicated.  /Really/ complicated.  So that’s the weird one.  Okay?  So let’s shelve that one.  You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.

The implications are there to be implied, but I shall not do so. I will say that he sounds specific enough to have some extensive and convoluted explanation about the details already written out somewhere, and that doesn't seem like something he would just shelve/change his mind about this far in advance unless it just plain would not work.

[teknopathetic]

On this Renarin not using his powers, I think maybe he has been?

One woman remarks that Dalinar should have no mobility on his should on account off all the injuries he has sustained. Perhaps Renarin has been keeping his father from developing arthritis, or repairing the scar tissue etc? I used to think The Thrill was somehow healing Dalinar, but maybe the simpler answer is that Renarin has been doing it over time. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by teknopathetic