[OB] Oathbringer chapters 7-9

[WhiteLeeopard]

There are several secret societies (Ghostbloods, Diagram, Skybreakers if you want to add them) who would completely ignore the Shardblade too. Of course in theory all those societies are secret, so everyone may assume all will want a Shardblade. I'm actually considering more seriously Team Sadeas would have considered Kaladin did it. KR have a bad rep, they don't know his order or Oaths very well (or at all), he doesn't like dead Shardblades, and he flew off after Sadeas was killed. Oh yeah, and he hates/d him. This actually lowers the chances Ialai did the second murder. If Kaladin did it, he is away, so investigation wouldn't affect him, and everyone would assume him innocent after the second murder happened.

Who doesn't love a good mystery .

Edited September 14, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[DSC01]

I don't think that anyone will think that they can necessarily infer anything from the Shardblade being ditched instead of taken. How would you be able to get away with a massive Shardblade? No matter how valuable a prize, it's worthless if it costs your life to abscond with it. One might ask, "Well, why didn't the killer just leave it where it appeared?" I still think that this would imply nothing about the killer's identity. They could have picked it up to take it, not being able to resist, then immediately realized there was no way to get away with it. Or they could have already had one and didn't need it, sure. Or they could have tossed it out the window because they hoped that it would not be discovered, and it would send people off on a false trail, trying to find someone hiding out with a Shardblade, trying to bond it before they are found out.

You know, Oathbringer may well not be discovered until "Brightlord Brooding-Eyes" flies Shallan out to get a better perspective on the city. Urithiru is huge, and more likely than not, it got ditched somewhere that is not currently inhabited.

[Blacksmithkin]

So I saw mentioned pages ago that someone had had a "blatant hint" about renerin pointed out to them, so I looked for a while. I assumed that the hint would most likely be either in the death rattles, or from truth watchers in dalinar's visions. So when I looked I noticed two things, one, the only people I can find to have predicted the everstorm are renarin, one death rattle early in tWoK (something about 1000 days?) and dalinar's visions.

So I looked at the visions, as there is little to look at in that death rattle, and I kind of find that unlikely to be the hint, in the vision "starfalls" (chapter 19 I think in tWoK) the vision says something about "speaking of what may be is forbidden", and this made me think, because I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere something along the lines of the vorin church's ban on seeing the future being based on something but not completely right. So it seems most likely to me that the hint I saw mentioned was relating to that, and possibly implying that the visions renarin has are possibly not bad, only speaking of them? Especially since they come with the highstorms, same as dalinar's visions, and those come from Honor.

stuff like this is really not my strength, but I felt like pointing it out anyways, for all I know a WoB goes against this or some detail I forgot, but perhaps someone else could look at this? It's the most plausible thing I have found that could be the "hint" I saw mentioned (I think it was by Argent or someone?).

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just to throw this out there: I currently have this weird theory.

Basically, after Adolin is found out he is forced to give up his Blade; I'd think this would be common sense when arresting a Shard bearer. Then someone - my guess is Navani - convinces Adolin to run, on the grounds that anything Dalinar decides would be damaging. To help she, possibly with the guards aid, smuggles Oathbringer to Adolin. He uses it to escape, and it is Oathbringer, not his own blade, he ends up reviving.

[Viridian]

1 hour ago, Jaconis said:

I'm not saying making them light. I'm talking about their color specifically. I don't have books or references handy, but Kaladin's eyes weren't dark blue before, but when he summons Syl they turn light blue now. Shallan's eyes should turn ruby colored if the pattern continues. 

My friend asked about this & was told that their eyes do change to the color of their Order, so Shallan's would turn red. Unfortunately the WoB isn't in the database -- it was from Lansing in 2015, which was never completely transcribed -- but I should still have her text from the event on my old phone...

[yulerule]

1 hour ago, Salkara said:

First, nobody would have to see the murder in order to see or hear a blade get dropped from above them. The actual quote is

It's possible someone on the terrace saw or heard it drop, and went to investigate. It's not like Shardblades fall out of the sky everyday.

Second, and more importantly, Adolin didn't take Oathbringer with him. Shardblades are incredibly rare and valuable, grant immediate elevation to the 4th dahn, and are godlike weapons. The fact that the Oathbringer wasn't taken indicates that whoever murdered Sadeas doesn't need or want a Shardblade. That reduces the pool of suspects to Shardbearers. It says that Sadeas was definitely not murdered for his Shardblade.

Actually, the question is this. Does the penalty for murdering a Highprince outweigh having a Shardblades? I'm pretty sure that the penalty is death ( anyone back me up on this?) and having Oathbringer is pretty close to an admission of guilt. If Oathbringer was left lying next to Sadeas, that means nobody took it. The way it is missing now can mean that someone took it.

[DSC01]

@Kingsdaughter613 The text has already dealt with the difficulty of bringing a Shardbearer to justice. If memory serves, they are generally exiled because they cannot be imprisoned. Forcing someone to give up their Blade just isn't going to happen, unless they choose to do it. You could argue that Adolin might be convinced that he must, but it really isn't a common sense notion, in general. How would you make the average Shardbearer willingly break their bond? They would have to summon their Blade to do it, and that is a dangerous situation, even if you surround them with guys in Shardplate. Kholin has enough Plate to go around to try that, but that isn't going to be too common. And you really have to remember how valuable Shardblades are. You'd be asking someone to voluntarily give up something that they could easily trade for an entire kingdom--and also to do so by pulling out an insanely deadly weapon and choose to just surrender that fortune instead of using it to kill everyone trying take it away.

[yulerule]

10 minutes ago, Viridian said:

My friend asked about this & was told that their eyes do change to the color of their Order, so Shallan's would turn red. Unfortunately the WoB isn't in the database -- it was from Lansing in 2015, which was never completely transcribed -- but I should still have her text from the event on my old phone...

Quote

• QUESTION

  My question has to do with the color of Shallan’s eyes currently, because we’ve noticed over the books that Kaladin’s eyes, as he’s continued to use his Surge, changed to lighter and lighter blue. Whereas one could argue that Shallan is farther in her Ideals than Kaladin is, yet her eyes have not changed at all.

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  Right, ‘cause they were already light.

  QUESTION

  ‘Cause they were already light? So it only affects lightness or darkness in the eyes, not necessarily any other color?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  It’s not like it is-- It’s not like it’s saying “Light minus 50%”.

  QUESTION

  It’s not like Honor is blue and--

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  No. It is not. It is just kind of the way that the changes the Stormlight is making the body and certain people are already descended from people who had repeated, over time, changes by the body which stopped physically… That’s not to say that all lighteyes that’s where they came from. There are some that are natural mutations.

  TAGS

  lighteyes,

• 5

  INTERVIEW

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Actually I thought Dalinar would ask him to surrender his blade, which Adolin would do. Which has nothing to with what is typically done, but has more to do with what I think they would do.

And this annoying tingling in the back of my mind that insists that Oathbringer still has a role to play.

As an aside, I thought the color of the Lightweavers was magenta and the Dustweavers was crimson?

[DSC01]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Actually I thought Dalinar would ask him to surrender his blade, which Adolin would do. Which has nothing to with what is typically done, but has more to do with what I think they would do.

And this annoying tingling in the back of my mind that insists that Oathbringer still has a role to play.

As an aside, I thought the color of the Lightweavers was magenta and the Dustweavers was crimson?

I'm sure that Oathbringer does still have a role to play. I imagine that it will be discovered (as I said above, I could imagine Shallan spotting it when Kaladin comes back, and she has him fly her out to get a better perspective on Urithiru).

I just don't see Adolin being forced to give up his Blade. I could see Dalinar wanting to do that because he's mad at Adolin, but it would set a dangerous precedent. And just about everyone is glad that Sadeas is dead. I think everyone that has Dalinar's ear would be unhappy with him even suggesting such a punishment. We'll see, though.

And, yes you're right about the colors. It's the Dustbringers, not 'weavers, but they are indeed crimson, while the Lightweavers are more magenta (but I bet if you saw someone with eyes glowing magenta, you'd be like "Aaaaah! Somone with glowing red eyes! Run!")

[WhiteLeeopard]

I'm really against the idea of Adolin been separated from his blade. Because I'm fully behind the idea of reviving it, and since the spren is dead I don't see how it could ever be revived without being bonded to the spren already. Yes, I know he could theoretically recover it later but...seems iffy. I suspect if a blade is ever revived it has to be because a person advances somehow to 3rd ideal minimun (believe this as once Kaladin killed Syl only way to bring her back was to say the words, even before dying she said it was the only way, as he was too far gone to just go back). Reviving a blade is already an almost impossible event. It'd seem a reasonable assumption it would have to happen slowly, to gradually acclimate the spren to "living", as a person can't just boom say 3 ideals in one go. Kaladin only got away with it because he said 1.

Then again I'm unhappy with Adolin been punished at all as I think he did the right thing morally, ethically, plotwise, characterwise and ehh, alethi law is crap anyway, who cares for it . I also hate double standards. Shallan and Jasnah have done much worse and they get lauded for it.

Of course our personal preferences mean not everyone will ever be happy .

Edited September 14, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Duke of Lizards]

2 hours ago, Elena said:

7 hours ago, Duke of Lizards said:

Syl's Havah would not necessarily mean she identifies as Alethi because it is generally Vorin.  Shallan wears the same attire and she is from Jah Kaved.  I find it very interesting that Syl has taken this form because Kaladin is seen as agnostic, or not very religious, at least.  

Yes but he's still Vorin - he might be agnostic but he doesn't read, still sees safehands as forbidden and they make him uncomfortable. These things go much further than religious creed; it's cultural and deeply rooted. I don't think Syl wearing Vorin attire means anything different than it being Kaladin's culture.

Good point!  I don't disagree!  I was simply saying it's more than just being Alethi.  I hope that my comment didn't sound like I was refuting that she was embracing his culture.  That wasn't what I was trying to say.  

Edited September 14, 2017 by Duke of Lizards
Elaborating on my original comment

[Kingsdaughter613]

My thoughts are:

Healing the spren depends on how far the initial radiant was on their Ideals. Assuming all five:

1st ideal - Radiant hears blade screaming. When not summoned the radiant hears half sensible words. The Blade can be summoned instantly. Immediately after saying the first ideal the Radiant can absorb Stormlight and the blade is briefly aware. After this the blade returns to screaming and the radiant no longer has access to surges.

2nd ideal- the spren begins to be more aware, but is often over come by pain. The Radiant can access surges in brief bursts. The spren is clearer when not summoned. The blade can morph very slightly but slowly and it is hard to notice. Surges are inaccessible when Blade is summoned. Radiant can see quick glimpses of their Spren at times but never clearly.

3rd Ideal - the Spren is far more lucid and is overcome to a lesser extent. Surges can be accessed more easily, and consistently. Strength is variable. Surges can be accessed inconsistently when the Blade is summoned. Radiant can now see their Spren flicker in out and the Spren can be seen clearly for brief moments. The Blade can change slowly into different shapes.

4th ideal - the Spren is almost entirely lucid but has occasional brief moments of blackout. Surges can be accessed all the time, but the strength still varies some. Surges are accessible when the Blade is summoned but are weaker. The Blade can change shape more easily, but still slower than unbroken Spren. The Radiant can now see their Spren consistently but others have trouble (when the Spren wants to be seen.)

5th ideal - The Spren is healed and everything is normal.

I CLEARLY spent way too much time thinking about this.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[WhiteLeeopard]

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My thoughts are:

Healing the spren depends on how far the initial radiant was on their Ideals. Assuming all five:

1st ideal - Radiant hears blade screaming. When not summoned the radiant hears half sensible words. The Blade can be summoned instantly. Immediately after saying the first ideal the Radiant can absorb Stormlight and the blade is briefly aware. After this the blade returns to screaming and the radiant no longer has access to surges.

2nd ideal- the spren begins to be more aware, but is often over come by pain. The Radiant can access surges in brief bursts. The spren is clearer when not summoned. The blade can morph very slightly but slowly and it is hard to notice. Surges are inaccessible when Blade is summoned. Radiant can see quick glimpses of their Spren at times but never clearly.

3rd Ideal - the Spren is far more lucid and is overcome to a lesser extent. Surges can be accessed more easily, and consistently. Strength is variable. Surges can be accessed inconsistently when the Blade is summoned. Radiant can now see their Spren flicker in out and the Spren can be seen clearly for brief moments. The Blade can change slowly into different shapes.

4th ideal - the Spren is almost entirely lucid but has occasional brief moments of blackout. Surges can be accessed all the time, but the strength still varies some. Surges are accessible when the Blade is summoned but are weaker. The Blade can change shape more easily, but still slower than unbroken Spren. The Radiant can now see their Spren consistently but others have trouble (when the Spren wants to be seen.)

5th ideal - The Spren is healed and everything is normal.

I CLEARLY spent way too much time thinking about this.

Awesome post. But I would almost hate it if it were true. Because it sounds like absolute torture both for Radiant and spren ^^.

[Kingsdaughter613]

 

3 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Awesome post. But I would almost hate it if it were true. Because it sounds like absolute torture both for Radiant and spren ^^.

That... basically describes my opinion on the matter. I think part of the 'impossible' part is how painful it would be for both, possibly leading to the would-be Radiant giving up. Or going mad. Or both!

The other parts being having the blade end up in the hands of a proto Radiant; the proto Radiant being meant for the blade's particular order; having said proto Radiant swear the first ideal; and not having another living Spren snatch up the proto Radiant first.

Possible? Yes. Likely... We'll probably see it happen once. If we're lucky.

[rjl]

I don't think Spren revival would be quite like that.

Thinking about it Sprens are personified ideas and concepts; if a spren is bound to someone I assume that bond becomes part of the "idea" hence part of the Spren; I would assume that the oaths that the bond is built on are part of the bond and so again in a way they are part of the "idea" and hence part of the Spren.

So if the oaths are broken -> the idea now contains a contradiction; can a contradictory idea exist as a thing? No it's a nonsense; but they have magic keeping them semi-alive; so they probably feel like they're dying over and over.

Hmm, I'm no longer sure where I'm going with this; I still want Adolin to revive his blade I think that would be awesome, and the talking to it bit did seem like a hint in that direction - I don't think it would be half dead and in agony through 4 oaths though.

[WhiteLeeopard]

The most hilarious part of the blade revival idea is that one of the main columns in the idea is the Duck in the battle of Narak. 

[yulerule]

So I was rereading TWoK, and Dalinar says he wants revenge on Sadeas. (After the betrayal) 

In OB, it seems like he regrets Sadeas' death a little. Where is the hatred?

[Kingsdaughter613]

But that's just it. The Spren is dead and alive at once; the broken oaths holding it to this realm while not allowing access to it. As I see it, each new Ideal overwrites one of the broken ones. The more whole oaths and the fewer broken ones the less pain the Spren has and the more free it becomes. But until all the broken Oaths are over written they still exist, causing the Spren pain. 

Note that my theory assumes five broken Oaths; if there are only three broken Oaths only three new ideals need be spoken. And so on.

4 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The most hilarious part of the blade revival idea is that one of the main columns in the idea is the Duck in the battle of Narak. 

Refresh my memory here. I've been working off  the WoB that it's theoretically possible but almost impossible without the original knight. The original knight could, obviously, fix all the Oaths by reaccepting them. 

[xianpoxi]

I'm convinced the copycat killing is aimed to put pressure on Sadeas' killer to try to draw them out. 

Its too targeted for anything else.

Sure Adolin killing Sadeas showed everyone in the camps how easy it is to get away w/ murder, but the precise positioning of the body to be just like Sadeas is a message.

It implies that Sadeas' killer is killing more people. It means if one is discovered, they will take the fall for others. 

The other message is to Adolin himself. "I'm coming for you"

Also, whoever is aiming for Sadeas' killer is amoral. They are plenty willing to murder in order to investigate who killed Sadeas.

Sure Adolin was willing to kill Sadeas under those circumstances, but Sadeas has long held that special place in Adolin's heart.

This other death has too much business in it. 

Most likely more than 1 goal is being met. Either, the killer is getting rid of an enemy and trying to pin it on someone else, or it is deliberately targeting Sadeas.

I think its both. I think anyone just doing business would not think to specifically make it such a blatent copycat.

which is why my money is on Ialai rather than the Ghostbloods.

Both suspects are amoral and ruthless enough for the job, but Ialai has the stronger personal motivation for this play. She wants to know who killed her husband, and she will want vengeance in a very Alethi way. She will also suspect Dalinar's household. The 2nd murder will target Dalinar whether he or his family killed Sadeas or not.

 

[yulerule]

Regarding blade revival: consensus is that Adolin blade is Edgedancer. Remembering the forgotten and listening to the ignored isn't Adolin.

[WhiteLeeopard]

11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Refresh my memory here. I've been working off  the WoB that it's theoretically possible but almost impossible without the original knight. The original knight could, obviously, fix all the Oaths by reaccepting them. 

Ah sorry, I should have specified I meant this concretely for Adolin. Reasons why its believed Adolin will revive blade it:

• He is sort of Edgedancer material (at least has the potential?) and WoB says his Blade is an Edgedancer spren
• He befriends everyone, regardless of rank or eyes
• He hates Sadeas for the tower, and thinks specifically of those that were his friends and men that he lost there. Even Dalinar is more focused on the political and military power he lost there than the specific men
• He saved the whore in Sadeas camp without a second thought
• Adolin can't get the Thrill during the battle of Narak
• He dismishes his blade, then there is a written in italics "duck", Eshonai attacks from behind. 
• The duck is a big point of contention, with some saying its the blade, some thinking its just his instincts as a warrior
• He summons his blade to fight Eshonai immediately, no comment of 10 heartbeats
• He is happy to fight Eshonai as he no longer feels he is fighting an unfair fight (worthy oponent vs slaughter)
• And then of course there is how he talks to his blade before each duel and refuses to name it

I think thats all, but lets just page @maxal in case I missed anything.

Edited September 14, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard
Forgot the whore

[Kingsdaughter613]

@yulerule Agreed. Just going by attributes Chanarach is associated with Brave and Obediant. Who do we know who fits that?

On the other hand Loving and healing are NOT the first words that come to mind. Specifically 'healing'; loving I can see. If it is going to be Adolin, I think his own Blade is too obvious.

Which is where my 'Oathbringer is going to be the awakened Blade' started. If we ignore WHO will do it, and instead think of the Blades most likely to be revived, Oathbringer, due its significance, becomes the most likely candidate.

@WhiteLeeopard

I'm not certain Adolin will be the one to do it. I WANT him to be, but I'm not sure. As explained above I see Oathbringer as the most likely BLADE candidate. Adolin is the most likely HUMAN candidate. But right now I'm leaning more toward 'whoever ends up with Oathbringer will end up reviving the blade.' 

Though that may be due to me REALLY wanting to meet the revived Oathbringer...

Edited September 14, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[WhiteLeeopard]

Main reason why Adolin as Dustbringer was dropped was a WoB saying we haven't seen a pov from a future Dustbringer yet. Of course could just be a debunked WoB, it has happened before, either by mistake or changing his mind afterwards .

[Kingsdaughter613]

I was agreeing with Adolin not being an Edgedancer. He could be a Stoneward (Dependable and Resourceful?) or a Willshaper (Resolute and Builder) as easily as a Dustbringer. I just really do not equate 'healing' with Adolin.

I think Adolin has been very good at surprising Brandon. He wasn't even supposed to have a viewpoint in part one!

Edited September 14, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613