[OB] Oathbringer chapters 7-9

[dgenio8]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Just because a character believes something to be true it doesn't mean it actually is true.

Until we know for certain that they properly tested the Honorblade, I don't think we can know for sure. (They might not even know what it really is...)

On a somewhat related note, given Shallan's critical importance as the only known way to get in and out of Urithiru while Kaladin is away... I'm surprised there weren't more guards with her. Where's her personal guards?

Why can't Renarin do it?

[Azul]

1 minute ago, dgenio8 said:

Why can't Renarin do it?

As far as we know Renarin has not progressed enough to summon his Blade.

[+robardin]

58 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

Is that just a gut feeling or do you have evidence to support that? Either is fine, just wondering if there's something I missed or just have a different feeling from reading his scenes. 

I agree that something seems off about him, but my personal opinion is that this "off-ness" is explained by a combination of the nature of Truthwatchers and Renarin's nature as a person. 

Two things in particular feel off to me. Both of them can be partially "explained away", but still, they're there.

First, what defines a Radiant? Being bonded to a spren that grants the ability to use Stormlight to fuel two Surges and to heal or to draw upon for physical strength/stamina, and a "resonance" that is unique to each Order and further to each individual.

As Radiants progress in their Ideals we see that they get more efficient with their use of Stormlight, eventually gain the use of their spren as a Shardblade (unclear if this is a thing of the Third Ideal for all orders, as it was with Kaladin but maybe not with Shallan?), and who knows, we may learn more about Shardplate as we see Radiants get to the Fifth Ideal.

We've seen a few other Radiants in the story so far: Kaladin, Shallan, Lift, and Dalinar. We've seen a few other characters as Surgebinders as well; Ym the cobbler, and a few others from Edgedancer:

Spoiler

The Stump can heal, so she is either a Truthwatcher or an Edgedancer, and we see nascent Skybreakers or squires flying off with Gravitation.

Surgebinders may have some affinity for using one Surge over the other (e.g., Shallan figured out how to Lightweave fairly well, but still can't Soulcast reliably even after the Third Ideal), but the ability is there even from the First Ideal.

So, what's off about Renarin?

1 - Surgebinding. Specfiically, the lack thereof. We have a WoB that Ym was (on the path to becoming) a Truthwatcher, exhibiting the surge of Progression (healing), and just before Darkness caught and killed him, his spren was urging him to use "light" (possibly to make a wall illusion, like Shallan later did). But we haven't seen Renarin do any Surgebinding.

Possible Rebuttal: Truthwatchers are described in the original (in-universe) "Words of Radiance" as "secretive". So maybe he's been healing or Lightweaving and we just haven't seen him do it, or evidence of him having done it. Though even so, Ym did gain a reputation for "helping" injured kids, even though the mechanism wasn't known.

Also, as noted, Renarin is visibly on the "autism spectrum", which could also make him have less of an affinity for actively reaching out to heal others. And maybe he HAS been Lightweaving, and we haven't noticed it (after all, part of the point of Lightweaving is to make illusions that fool people).

2 - Foretelling. This is the bigger one. We have only his statement and example that Truthwatchers "see" the future, versus Syl's statement that the glyphs counting down to the Everstorm (that Renarin admitted to being the source of) was "seeing what is to come - it isn't of Honor. It's something else. Something dangerous."

Again this is in contrast to Ym, the only other known Truthwatcher, who didn't "see" Darkness coming to snuff him out. And what do you know, the specific thing that Renarin foresaw was definitely something of Odium (the Everstorm - maybe even worse, as he kept saying "we're dead, we're dead, we're dead"), and not something else like "hey, I can SEE how to use the Oathgates".

Possible Rebuttal: Syl also expressed distaste for "liespren", but that doesn't make Shallan any less a Radiant; so maybe whatever flavor of foretelling Renarin can do is just something another type of Radiant spren (without being voidspren?) enables that Syl just doesn't care for.

We definitely see Renarin having a "bad reaction" to touching a Shardblade in the dueling arena, and his nearsightedness has indeed been healed, presumably by Stormlight or his own Surgebinding. Hence my suggestion that perhaps he is a Truthwatcher, but one that's been somehow influenced or co-opted ("corrupted" being too strong a word) by something else, as implied by his foretelling.

Edited September 13, 2017 by robardin

[Jack33210]

I wonder why Elhokar wasn't at that meeting prior to the murder. Is he really that sick still to not attend or is something else going on? People were saying he could be all antagonistic towards Dalinar this book.

[+robardin]

Just now, Jack33210 said:

I wonder why Elhokar wasn't at that meeting prior to the murder. Is he really that sick still to not attend or is something else going on? People were saying he could be all antagonistic towards Dalinar this book.

Yeah, a few of us have speculated that Elhokar is off doing something related to what Dalinar spoke to him of at his marriage to Navani. Possibly involving the riots in Kholinar (where his wife and child are), making use of the Windrunner Honorblade, or both. (egad.)

[Calderis]

My take on Syl's "foretelling is not of honor" bit is a combination of the Vorin belief that foretelling is evil having influenced the Spren, and the fact that as Tanavast admitted, not good at foresight. 

Truthwatchers are located right next to Edgedancers on the surge chart. This puts them pretty heavily into the Cultivation side of things, and regardless of what people want to think, I'm guessing that Cultivation is one of the better, if not best Shards at foretelling. As everything, it come down to intent. 

The intent of Honor is about codes, and bonds and keeping your word. It about maintaining decisions you've made in the past.

Cultivation on the other hand, is all about pre-planning. Laying out a goal and working towards that by manipulating the environment and events to achieve that goal.

I don't see Odium, a Shard who's intent is literally acting on and inspiring hatred, being better at foresight than Cultivation. I just don't. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Calderis

[Stark]

I know I'm coming a little late to this part of the discussion, but I don't think Renarin is Odium's champion.  Before I say anything else on the topic, I am going to preface by outright stating: I know next to nothing about the Autism spectrum.  I have never had anything more than second hand contact with people on the spectrum, and that was in elementary school.  Any thoughts I have are based on second hand information from people who are not experts, but have had regular interactions with people on the more complicated ends of the spectrum, or the caricatures we often see in media.  This is a subject on which I am ignorant.  I feel the best way to cure my own ignorance is to acknowledge it and confront it head on, as it is not a position I enjoy speaking from.

 

That said, even if Renarin was not Autistic to any degree, look at the experiences he's lived.  His entire life he has felt inadequate due to his epilepsy, not being able to be a soldier like his father, brother, uncle and cousin.  And then he starts hearing a voice, and seeing things that cannot possibly be there as he attracts Glys' attention.  The same attention that almost unhinged Shallan when she started seeing spren in her drawings, and Elhokar when he started seeing them in his mirrors.  He lsitens to his father talk about his cousin's mounting paranoia, jumping at things that are not real.

 

He must have felt like he was going insane.

 

And then things got worse.  He was given the tools to overcome his physical limitations, shardplate and blade.  And every single time he touches his blade, it screams in endless pain from its not-life-not-death, making him unable to properly learn.  And no one else around him hears the same thing.  He must be going crazy, the weak useless son of the great Blackthorn.

 

And then it gets worse still.  He starts seeing the future, something his entire religion says is the work of evil, but he can't stop.  That has to be terrifying and throw his entire world view into disorder.  All of this together must have brought his sanity to the breaking point.

 

And then suddenly, actually its okay, your a proto-radiant, the first of your kind in centuries.  Go figure out how to be you on your own, because no one can guide you or help you.  You are the pathfinder.

 

If it was me having my view of the world constantly under assault, feeling like I was going mad over months and months, constantly feeling useless?  I'm not sure I would believe it when suddenly I find out I'm one of the most important people in the world.  I'd be concerned that I'd finally snapped and was insane.

 

But then the world re-asserts itself.  Captain McBroody learned this all on his own in the chasms when people where actively trying to get him killed daily.  My brother's fiance, and her teacher, my cousin, were self teaching on the other side of the world, and if not fully competent, are self confident in their abilities.  My Dad twists the metaphorical arm of the father of storms into a bond almost against its will and starts dominating by force of will, confirming (maybe, regarding nine shadows) things that have been giving me nightmares.  And I'm still the useless one that broke down and scribbled on walls.

 

The one thing I have heard consistently about autism, is that it makes adaptation to change difficult.  Everything is changing, yet he still feels the same - inadequate.  

 

So yeah, I can forgive Renarin for not knowing how to fit in, for staring almost creepily at what others cannot see, but he must finally accept as real, and for acting really odd as he tries to adapt to find that his last few months were not normal, but that doesn't make him crazy.  He has a lot of growing to do now, and not a lot of time to do it, which is probably why he is slotted for being a key character in the second arc of five.  But none of that screams Champion of Odium to me.

 

I do feel that the champion will be someone we have already met, not a new character introduced for the sake of being the villain, but it won't be Renarin.  I think Moash, or Mr. T have a better chance of being the champion than Renarin, who is just trying to find his way.  And I don't think they are good fits either.

[Pattern]

The question that still arises is, how do Progression and Lightweaving combine to give visions of the future? Is this the Truthwatcher resonance, or something else entirely?

I don't see Renarin as Odium's champion either. Something still feels off with him. It probably is just his "odd" behaviour and the lack off him surgebinding at all (as far as we can judge). Also the lack of Glys appearing is quite suspicious. If he/she is as shy as Renarin, this is no wonder, though.
On the other hand, one or two of the Unmade might have found another victim to influence. It must be very subtle, since the Stormfather does not react to Renarin in any strange or hostile way. They are both at the wedding and the presence of a voidspren should not have gone unnoticed.

Syl being freaked out in WoR I attribute to the presence of voidspren in the Highstorms predating the summoning of the Everstorm, so her statement that seeing the future is of Odium cannot be taking at face value. She is just jumpy and scared. Cultivation could be involved instead.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Pattern

[Necessary Eagle]

I'm going to have to go back and check on the exact context of that line, but I took the "seeing what is to come - it isn't of Honor. It's something else. Something dangerous" line as saying that the subject of the vision was "not of Honor". As in, regular highstorms are from the Stormfather, but the Everstorm that Renarin is seeing is from Odium.

[Azul]

@Pattern We have already seen that Shallan likely has at least some ability at, for lack of a better term, farseeing, being able to see either current / future events happening in other locations. (Back on the beach when she drew both Shalash and Yalb).  So my guess would be there is a lot more to LIghtweaving than simple illusions.

[Stark]

21 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Also the lack of Glys appearing is quite suspicious.

I don't think so.  Pattern doesn't want to appear in public, and he physically can't go invisible.  Syl almost never shows herself as a spren, Kaladin has to ask her.  Wyndle hides.  Neither Lift or Wyndle saw Stump's spren.  The spren in general seem to be shy about being visible to anyone other than their bondmates, Stormfather excepted.  But he is big enough that everyone who has dared look at a Highstorm has likely seen him.

 

Even at the big final reveal in WoR, neither Pattern, Syl or Glys made visible appearances (excluding bladeform) when they met at the top of the tower to discuss how Radiant they were and be one-upped by Dalinar who bonded the storm.  Spren being shy and invisible is nothing suspicious to me.

[+robardin]

29 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

I'm going to have to go back and check on the exact context of that line, but I took the "seeing what is to come - it isn't of Honor. It's something else. Something dangerous" line as saying that the subject of the vision was "not of Honor". As in, regular highstorms are from the Stormfather, but the Everstorm that Renarin is seeing is from Odium.

She was definitely talking about the countdown. 

Words of Radiance, Ch. 5:

Quote

 

[Kaladin said] "...It might have to do with those glyphs on Dalinar’s wall yesterday. They seemed like a countdown.”

She nodded.

“Have you ever seen anything like that before?”

“I remember . . . something,” she whispered. “Something bad. Seeing what is to come—it isn’t of Honor, Kaladin. It’s something else. Something dangerous.”

Wonderful.

 

 

[+robardin]

36 minutes ago, Azul said:

@Pattern We have already seen that Shallan likely has at least some ability at, for lack of a better term, farseeing, being able to see either current / future events happening in other locations. (Back on the beach when she drew both Shalash and Yalb).  So my guess would be there is a lot more to LIghtweaving than simple illusions.

Oh, that is a good point. I'd forgotten about those sketches. Both times she was just freehanding, right?

[scifan]

Having two kids "on spectrum"... I can attest to the possibility of someone having a rigid/narrow view of what's right and wrong. My son thinks he's a lawyer at times when debating what is being meant based upon the words used when asking him to stop doing something. My daughter has significant issues with some kinds of overwhelming noise think loud restaurants while she's perfectly fine with loud music. They also have issues with being able to pick up on body language, or understand jokes, or sarcasm.

I don't know that much of this applies to what we've "read" thus far from Renarin... but it's interesting anyway.

Shifting gears...

I keep wondering why we were made aware of the span reed that Laral had that went straight to Aesudan.  Was this just to make us aware that the folks in Kholinar weren't responding? Or was it something else - e.g. was Brightlord Wistiow somehow related to Aesudan (meaning in turn that Laral was?) Was there something going on between Roshone and Aesudan?  I could have understood having a reed to Sadeus' staff because that's the high prince they're under... I could understand to many others, but their communication lines to Kholinar and Tashikk seemed a little off to me.

 

[Nymeros]

5 hours ago, Extesian said:

So...why haven't we seen Renarin heal anyone? Lift was doing so long before Wyndle shardforked. Renarin has progression and he hasn't bothered healing, say, Adolin's injury? Either Truthwatchers were all resonance and no surge or Renarin is a voidbinder.

Renarin likely hasn't spoken any oaths....he's been running from his true nature much like young Shallan. Besides, we don't see him enough to know if he had used either of the individual surges in a minor way.

 

Thoughts upon reread:

Roshone is really pathetic. Lirin said he had changed but I guess that just means that he is no longer pointlessly cruel?

 

Lara came across as haughty, brusque and unlikable.

 

Kaladin wasn't very likable either. He too was too brusque/impatient and came across as extremely arrogant. Radiant Kaladin has a lot of growing to do.

 

Shallan is a sarcastic little butt wipe. She needs to chill the heck out.

 

Dalinar is still the man.

 

Lirin is still the man.

 

I don't care about the copycat killer.

[WhiteLeeopard]

We are not sure Shallan was future drawing, it might have been the past or present. Or when she was drawing herself it could be said she wasn't "seeing" the future as much as "hoping" for it. (Illusion becomes reality, paint herself as a greatlady and she becomes a greatlady)

[Lazarus52980]

22 hours ago, ProfessorMLyon said:

Could it be that Dalinar is not Renarin's father at all? If true, could it be a factor in Shhshhh's death? Pretty long stretch I know, and definitely without any evidence. But since we know almost next to nothing about her, it is fun to speculate. 

This is interesting to consider.  Hasn't it been said that Alethi hair always shows how much alethi blood they have?  Doesn't Adolin have more black hair than Renarin?  

[17th Splinter]

I don't think that Renarin has much wrong with his spren. His lack of visible surgebinding could be simply that he is shy and that he hasn't spoken many oaths. Kaladin couldn't use his gravitation surge until he swore the second oath, and it still took him a long time to figure it out. Also we have this quote from the new chapters

Quote

“Well I didn’t do it,” Renarin said. “The Stormlight quite certainly came from you, Brightness.”

This to me indicates that Renarin has been lightweaving, just not on screen. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

6 minutes ago, Lazarus52980 said:

This is interesting to consider.  Hasn't it been said that Alethi hair always shows how much alethi blood they have?  Doesn't Adolin have more black hair than Renarin?  

No, Adolin has a lot more blond hair than Renarin. At least half, if not closer to three quarters. Renarin must have a quarter, or a third.

[flying_shadow]

I can't wait for the opening of the Oathgates. Partially because I want to see more of the world, partially because I really want to see everyone react to a certain Shardfork-bearer.

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, 17th Splinter said:

Also we have this quote from the new chapters

This to me indicates that Renarin has been lightweaving, just not on screen. 

Nice catch. As I realized, the fact that we haven't seen Renarin do any lightweaving doesn't really imply anything - we haven't had a POV from him, and the whole point of lightweaving is typically that other people don't pierce the illusion (being a human 3D projector notwithstanding).

Since I'm posting this from work, I now have an image of Dalinar "commandeering" either Renarin's or Shallan's lightweaving at the next meeting to go over his ideas with maps and illustrations, complete with him kicking Renarin while saying, "next slide, please".

[scifan]

I hate when I can't actually TYPE my response after the "quote"...

I was simply going to say that at the rate things are going on... the conversation about each 3 chapters is significantly more dialogue than is written IN the chapters that have been released...

Edited September 13, 2017 by scifan

[Azul]

18 minutes ago, Lazarus52980 said:

This is interesting to consider.  Hasn't it been said that Alethi hair always shows how much alethi blood they have?  Doesn't Adolin have more black hair than Renarin?  

People seem to be going nuts over the hair color ratio.  There are several reasons I can think of that don't involve one of them being adpoted.  Also we have already had a WoB on this.

Quote

PRNCRNY

So Alethi hair "breeds true" based on the individual's ancestry, why then does Renarin have more black than Adolin?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

As with us regular people, different shades of skin can be had within the same family with the same parents, its just a matter of how their DNA falls out. No different here. Nothing special with Adolin and Renarin's hair.

 

[Calderis]

In addition to @Azul's there's this one.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1038#12

Quote

QUESTION

Are Renarin and Adolin Dalinar's legitimate children?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question! Yes, they are both legitimate. Though Renarin didn't get as much of the hair, which is probably what people are asking about.

 

[Pammie]

1 hour ago, scifan said:

I keep wondering why we were made aware of the span reed that Laral had that went straight to Aesudan.  Was this just to make us aware that the folks in Kholinar weren't responding? Or was it something else - e.g. was Brightlord Wistiow somehow related to Aesudan (meaning in turn that Laral was?) Was there something going on between Roshone and Aesudan?  I could have understood having a reed to Sadeus' staff because that's the high prince they're under... I could understand to many others, but their communication lines to Kholinar and Tashikk seemed a little off to me.

 

Yeah, I thought that this was strange too. Maybe all towns in Alethkar do? This seems really ineffective, wouldn't it make more sense for them to have to go through an intermediary first? 

Also, as nice as it was for Kaladin to visit his hometown and resolve some things, I've been wondering what this little trip to Hearthstone adds to the plot. I'm betting that lil' Oroden will become important later, possibly in the second-half of the series, after the time-skip. But it would also make a lot of sense for Laral to be connected to the queen and somehow be drawn in the issues in Kholinar. Maybe she'll tip Aesudan off that Dalinar is refounding the Knights Radiant? And the queen will use this somehow to try and wrest power away from the Kholins? Also, her presence will also be a constant reminder for Kaladin about his perception of his past and maybe force some character growth.

There has to be some importance to this visit at Hearthstone, and it'd be weird if all towns in Alethkar have a spanreed directly to the queen, but I don't know how it fits together?