[OB] Oathbringer chapters 7-9

[Ardjet]

1 minute ago, rjl said:

That was Moash and Graves. Amaram was last seen taking the man who may be Talenelat into a coach planning to go to Urithuru after writing a letter to Restares saying that they had succeeded. He regrets the loss of Dalinar's friendship wishing that he had killed Kaladin; and one of the ghostbloods tries to kill him with a blow gun - he recognises them as a ghostblood; but they run off when he summons his Blade.

Thaaaat's right! Thank you for clarifying. That rings as many bells as are in Kharbranth.

[Guest Edonidd]

Comments after reading everything.

 

1.  Urithuri is Stones Unhallowed.  The Shin pay big money (they downplay it, but are aware enough of trade to have an idea of prices) for soulcast metal.  Soulcast junk to be smelted/forged rather than using any ore from the ground, which is essentially just stone/rock when you think about it.  Could it be that Uruthiru is completely soulcast, and there for not natural?  Would help explain why Shellan is so uncomfortable around it, with her religious focus being on nature.  Also makes sense that a place made for the Radiants would be a place made by the Radiants.  The different swirls and patterns and stuff could either be like smoke/air swirling while they were casting it, or it could have been done in layers piece by piece as Stormlight became available, therefore different people or groups of people doing it differently of different materials on different days.

 

2.  People discounting Renarin being ABLE physically to kill some guy in that manner.  That's silly.  He still has his shardplate if he needed to pre meditate physically killing somebody.  Plus he's a surgebinder being giffen Stormlight infused gems.  Even as frail as he appears physically and as undertrained as he is, I actually doubt if there is anybody in Uruthiru who is more physically capable of the murder then him.

But I've said before, Brandon Sanderson chose to make Renarin Autistic (or on the spectrum or whatever, not trying to be offensive just don't know the current PC acceptable term) and based him or at least had him inspired by an actual friend of his.  There is no way he chooses to then make that character one of the bad guys.  Although Renarin murdering somebody to help his brother seems slightly feasible when you think about it from the standpoint of the autistic spectrum not really understanding how to fit in and/or relate to society.  But hes absolutely devoted to his brother.  I just mentally, from a story telling stand point, and from the writers/political worldview standpoint I can't see Renarin being anything but a vanilla hero.

3. Who else could have done it then?  Quite literally just about anyone.  Any of the secret societies could have done it.  Ialai could easily have set it in motion, although how much power/authority does she have in this society without Sadeas?  Probably still enough in the short term directly after the death of Sadeas, but going forward?  But it could be anyone else too.  Maybe that guys wife wad cheating on him and the boyfriend took this opportunity to get rid of him.  Maybe he found Sadeas shardblade?  Maybe he saw somebody else carrying it unbonded and that person wanted to bond it first.  Kaladins chapter today EXPLICITLY confirmed it didn't matter how you gained a shardblade, just that you had it.  Could be a way to hide a murder by making it look like a different one, or a way to bring more attention to the first.  I think this is pretty much just RAFO we don't even have enough info to speculate imo.

[Calderis]

Points for why I believe the second killer is a hireling of Ialai. 

1.) she's an opportunist. She can drop people that have been problematic for her in any number of ways, be it politically, criminally, personally, what have you, and by mimicking the circumstances of Sadeas' death, suspicion is drawn away from her. 

2.) As someone on Discord pointed out, attention has been lax towards Sadeas' death, and additional murders renew interest in hunting down the killer. 

3.) if she does know that Adolin is the killer, then creating a situation that pressures Adolin, or implicates him more heavily continues the last request Sadeas gave her. Hurt Dalinar. 

[Viridian]

1 hour ago, rjl said:

It's not the same Perel - it says that this Perel who's been murdered is from Sebarial’s army whereas if you read back in WOR you'll find that the Perel Adolin was talking to was one of Adolin/Dalinar's officers.

 

40 minutes ago, maxal said:

@Viridian: The Perel whom was just murdered was from the Sebrarial army whereas the treating water Perel was one of Adolin's soldiers.

But, the same last name!....Brothers, then? Cousins?? Maybe they're both swimmers?...

Aagh, I didn't think I'd be this sad to see my silly theory die. Storms.

1 hour ago, redbishop said:

That is hilarious, and it deserves a pause for acknowledgemnt.  Well spotted!

Haha, thanks, @redbishop!

[maxal]

1 hour ago, geralt said:

I think that says more about who Dalinar regards as more capable than anything else. 

Yes and no. Dalinar worries a lot about Elhokar, he has a sweet spot when it comes to him. I find it totally within character to give the honorblade to him as opposed to Adolin. Adolin, he always thinks he'll be fine no matter what.

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

Even considering that Dalinar has a blind spot for Elhokar, rather than Adolin ( which I don't necessarily agree with) from a strategic point of view it would make much sense to give Adolin power and put him in a higher position because he knows he is more capable than Elhokar. And I don't think this is up for debate, I truly belive he considers his son's competence above the one of his nephew. With those powers and Elhokar still being sort of the king, he can't do much. Like if it were up to use those in battles or other circumstances. I don't think he would waste "powers" only for him not to be a cry baby. I don't know, maybe you are right. But it doesn't make sense for the way I read the story so far .

Oh but he does.There is a WoB which confirms it is true Dalinar is harder on Adolin then he is on Elhokar and Renarin. This aren't just impressions. He demands more out of Adolin and he usually considers his eldest needs no advantage. When it comes to Elhokar, Dalinar is constantly worried on how he will react, how he will take it, what will he think, what can he do for him. Not once within his monologue did Dalinar express any worries nor doubt concerning Adolin. It isn't about capacities nor competences (though Dalinar does state back in WoR how he thought Elhokar was a great man and a wonderful king: Navani corrects him, but he insists on Elhokar being a strong king), it is about whom Dalinar wants to give the honorblade and no Dalinar doesn't always make the right choice.

I think your are stating Dalinar should not give the honorblade to Elhokar because Adolin is more capable and it makes more sense to give it to him. Problem is Dalinar doesn't think within those ways. He did waste Shards on Renarin while internally knowing they would be wasted, but he wanted to please his youngest son. He did indulge a useless hunt to Elhokar just so he could pretend at being a good leader and brushes over the fact 50 men died for it. Dalinar isn't always the best decision maker: he tries, but just as all men, he has flaws. One of these flaws is he believes it is within his obligations to favor Elhokar and to give him every advantage he can whereas he usually believes Adolin will fend for himself, no matter what.

I did take note of how Dalinar is seen to worry about Renarin, about Elhokar but he hasn't have ONE thought for Adolin during his viewpoint chapters. He obviously does not believe the fact himself, Shallan and Renarin are Radiants ought to mean anything to Adolin. The fact he isn't even thinking about it indicate a flaw because I feel the natural reaction would be to wonder about the one who didn't get the magic.

Also, there is this fact:

Oathbringer/The Thrill Spoiler

Spoiler

25 years ago, Dalinar gives a set of Shards he had just won to young Elhokar because he feels guilty for wanting to kill Gavilar. When Gavilar objects stating Dalinar ought to keep the Shards to give them to his firstborn, Dalinar refuses. 

It wouldn't be the first time Dalinar gives something to Elhokar in precedence of Adolin.

About Renarin perhaps being the killer: while I do believe he is perfectly capable of murder, I see no reason for him to do so. I also do not believe he knows the truth, at best he suspects, but other Truthwatchers we have seen did not read within thoughts, they just seemed to have good instincts when it came to lies. Renarin is likely just picking up on Adolin acting weird, but I doubt he knows, knows. Even if he did, murdering more people is NOT helping Adolin: it is likely to get him convicted for those crimes as well.

Edited September 13, 2017 by maxal

[Darvys]

Well, Renarin was always sickly and Elhokar did need all the help he could get if the kingdom was to survive whereas Adolin was his reliable right hand, so i understand why they'd get more attention/support, it wasn't ideal parenting, but not exactly as bad as you make it sound.

For the shards he gifted his brother, Adolin wasn't even born back then, so he didn't really choose Elhokar over him.

And no, he won't give the Honorblade to his nefew just to sooth him, not after being warned of the danger its use represents. Besides Dalinar more than any radiant seems to focus on the importance of oaths, i doubt he'll be confortable with any surgebinder running around unchecked.

[maxal]

4 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Well, Renarin was always sickly and Elhokar did need all the help he could get if the kingdom was to survive whereas Adolin was his reliable right hand, so i understand why they'd get more attention/support, it wasn't ideal parenting, but not exactly as bad as you make it sound.

For the shards he gifted his brother, Adolin wasn't even born back then, so he didn't really choose Elhokar over him.

And no, he won't give the Honorblade to his nefew just to sooth him, not after being warned of the danger its use represents. Besides Dalinar more than any radiant seems to focus on the importance of oaths, i doubt he'll be confortable with any surgebinder running around unchecked.

And yet Adolin is the one who's cracking up, he's the one who has abnormal reactions: Dalinar looks right into him and he sees a great nothing. I am not going to win my point, this is an argument I never managed to win, but from my perspective there is something to say about how Dalinar just takes Adolin for granted (he never considered the possibility Adolin may not be up to all the tasks he gives him which to certain reader is great, but I think part of being a good leader is being able to see when one of your men is about to crack down). Also, despite many readers insistence he has made mistakes, he has a bias towards Elhokar and if he has the choice in between giving the honorblade to either Elhokar or Adolin, it is likely he would give it to Elhokar and not Adolin because this is how Dalinar thinks.

Besides, Dalinar said he had something to discuss with Elhokar, something which will please him. He can't allow the dual leadership, Elhokar cannot remain king for long: they cannot afford it. So what did Dalinar think of giving away in retribution?

Spoiler

He once gave Shards to Elhokar because of how guilty he felt towards Gavilar. It does not matter if Adolin wasn't born yet, Gavilar tells Dalinar to keep them, but he refuses because he feels he needs to compensate his guilt by an action, a gift.

Thus, Dalinar compensating for his power usurpation by giving away the honorblade to Elhokar is perfectly within character.

[mariapapadia]

46 minutes ago, maxal said:

I think your are stating Dalinar should not give the honorblade to Elhokar because Adolin is more capable and it makes more sense to give it to him. Problem is Dalinar doesn't think within those ways. He did waste Shards on Renarin while internally knowing they would be wasted, but he wanted to please his youngest son. He did indulge a useless hunt to Elhokar just so he could pretend at being a good leader and brushes over the fact 50 men died for it. Dalinar isn't always the best decision maker: he tries, but just as all men, he has flaws. One of these flaws is he believes it is within his obligations to favor Elhokar and to give him every advantage he can whereas he usually believes Adolin will fend for himself, no matter what.

 

While I do belive you make a fair point regarding Dalinar's poor decision to waste Shards on Renarin, I think the stakes are much higher now. Not only Dalinar knows exactly what's ahead of them now and the battles they will have, but this is not just an ordinary blade. As Syl points out is dangerous and a tresure. So it makes me a bit doubtful it will be wasted like this, even considering Dalinar has it, which we're not sure about. 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I do belive we might read too much into everything, not having a bigger picture and dissecting every little detail 

Edited September 13, 2017 by mariapapadia

[maxal]

1 minute ago, mariapapadia said:

While I do belive you make a fair point regarding Dalinar's poor decision to waste Shards on Renarin, I think the stakes are much higher now. Not only Dalinar knows exactly what's ahead of them now and the battles they will have, but this is not just an ordinary blade. As Syl points out is dangerous and a tresure. So it makes me a bit doubtful it will be wasted like this, even considering Dalinar has it, which we're not sure about. 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I do belive we might read too much into everything, not having a bigger picture and dissecting every little detail 

Another problem I have is Dalinar has a history for over-compensating when it comes to Elhokar. Also, considering the stakes are higher now, he may need a way to keep Elhokar out of the leadership without alienating him, because he loves him, so the honorblade might come in handy. Elhokar undoubtedly knows how to fight: weapons are not wasted on him. Surely he has the capacities to figure out how to use the honorblade efficiently. He may not be as good as Adolin, but that's precisely the point: Adolin doesn't need an advantage. This is how Dalinar usually thinks: Adolin will deal with everything. He needs not him to give him anything. 

I am thinking how part of Kaladin's struggles came from losing the idealized vision he had of ligheyes: the drop was so abrupt it left him unable to trust them again. I am thinking the Kholins may have an idealized vision of Adolin: when the truth comes out, the drop will be abrupt. They will not be able to trust him anymore. 

[mariapapadia]

22 minutes ago, maxal said:

And yet Adolin is the one who's cracking up, he's the one who has abnormal reactions: Dalinar looks right into him and he sees a great nothing. I am not going to win my point, this is an argument I never managed to win, but from my perspective there is something to say about how Dalinar just takes Adolin for granted (he never considered the possibility Adolin may not be up to all the tasks he gives him which to certain reader is great, but I think part of being a good leader is being able to see when one of your men is about to crack down). Also, despite many readers insistence he has made mistakes, he has a bias towards Elhokar and if he has the choice in between giving the honorblade to either Elhokar or Adolin, it is likely he would give it to Elhokar and not Adolin because this is how Dalinar thinks.

I agree with a good leader must learn to read his men and understand them, but we have to keep in mind Dalinar hasn't been a leader until recently. Wasn't that pointed out? That he was the soldier and he is learning how to lead people ?(god! how many times can I use the word lead/er? ) Anyway, I do belive he is in a process of figuring that out, especially now that he openly took the lead ( another one). You are right his decisions weren't the best ones when it comes to these three, but now he is responsable for the rest of the world so I belive his attitude towards them will change. He was also super protective with Elhokar because he was feeling guilty for Gavilar's death, but in the end of WoR, I got the impression the let that guilt go.  Anyway, I don't want to go too much offtopic with analizing him 

Edited September 13, 2017 by mariapapadia

[ParadoxicalZen]

Renarin's behaviour seems to be pretty much what I expect from a Truthwatcher, given what little we know of them. I see a parallel to The Sword of Truth (I know) novels and it's debate on prophecy with free will versus predestination. It seems to be a trait I associate with those struck with the burden of knowing too much, although in Renarin's case, he may not know how he knows exactly. I'm very eager for the book now to see how the character developments play out

[maxal]

1 minute ago, mariapapadia said:

I agree with a good leader must learn to read his men and understand them, but we have to keep in mind Dalinar hasn't been a leader until recently. Wasn't that pointed out? That he was the soldier and he is learning how to lead people ?(god! how many times can I use the word lead/er? ) Anyway, I do belive he is in a process of figuring that out, especially now that he openly took the lead ( another one). You are right his decision weren't the best ones when it comes to these three, but now he is responsable for the rest of the world so I belive his attitude towards them will change. He was also super protective with Elhokar because he was feeling guilty for Gavilar's death, but in the end of WoR, I got the impression the let that guilt go. Maybe is a sign he will start to let that go. Anyway, I don't want to go too much offtopic with analizing him 

I am mostly referring as to how, in chapter 9, when Dalinar asks Adolin to investigate the murders, Adolin answers by: "Me?". Right here and there. It was very uncharacteristic of Adolin, it was not his normal reactions. Shallan watches the same exchange and notices something seem to be off, but Dalinar, who is starring right into Adolin's eyes, sees nothing.

Actually, Dalinar's behavior with Elhokar predates Gavilar's death. Based on what I have glimpsed, Dalinar deals with the guilt by giving gifts to compensate.

[mariapapadia]

17 minutes ago, maxal said:

 Elhokar undoubtedly knows how to fight: weapons are not wasted on him. Surely he has the capacities to figure out how to use the honorblade efficiently. He may not be as good as Adolin, but that's precisely the point: Adolin doesn't need an advantage. This is how Dalinar usually thinks: Adolin will deal with everything. He needs not him to give him anything. 

Yes, but the blade is not only a blade. That's the thing. It almost puts one on the same level as the KR given the other powers and exposes that person to the same danger, if not more because whoever gets the sword gains other powers as well. Which would make it a very desirable object. So this would contradict his idea of keeping the king safe. Regardless of Dalinar's biases or feelings when it comes to Elhokar and Adolin, I think he must realise this is much more important than comforting an ego. Plus I personaly belive that in choosing to do something like this he should at least ask Kaladin, given that fact that he "earned" it.

[Andy92]

I haven't had the time to read everything in here, but I had a thought/question about the Chapter 7 epigraph. 

Quote

I did not die.

I experienced something worse.

There have been some theories that the KR abandoned their oaths upon learning they transported to Braize upon death like the Heralds do. 

If the epigraphs were written by Jasnah, who was an Elsecaller, is it possible she was so close to death that she encountered Braize in a vision? 

[+Extesian]

I haven't read a single post and won't for a while, but here's my crazy speculation.

What's worse than death? Possession. Who is closer to the cognitive realm already? Listeners. Who appeared to be dead? Eshonai. Who would be regarded as a heretic to their people by Nahel bonding? Eshonai.

Eh probably doesn't fit with the other epigraphs, I don't have time to think. But throwing it out there for debunking.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Extesian

[Nathrangking]

Just now, Extesian said:

I haven't read a single post and won't for a while, but here's my crazy speculation.

What's worse than death? Possession. Who is closer to the cognitive realm already? Listeners. Who appeared to be dead? Eshonai.

Eh probably doesn't fit with the other epigraphs, I don't have time to think. But throwing it out there for debunking.

The key in the beginning was the author saying that they would be called a heretic. who is going to call Eshonai a heretic for writing a book. I still think that mad old Taravangian is behind the book.

[Andy92]

6 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I haven't read a single post and won't for a while, but here's my crazy speculation.

What's worse than death? Possession. Who is closer to the cognitive realm already? Listeners. Who appeared to be dead? Eshonai. Who would be regarded as a heretic to their people by Nahel bonding? Eshonai.

Eh probably doesn't fit with the other epigraphs, I don't have time to think. But throwing it out there for debunking.

I didn't read anything either lol, but check my post right before yours and see if you think there's any possible merit to it. 

[Calderis]

20 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Yes, but the blade is not only a blade. That's the thing. It almost puts one on the same level as the KR given the other powers and exposes that person to the same danger, if not more because whoever gets the sword gains other powers as well. Which would make it a very desirable object.

Not disagreeing that it's desirable... But what other powers does the blade give? It grants the two surges, and depending on the blade a resonance. This is Jezriens blade, so while it does technically grant the resonance of the Windrunners, it doesn't grant the ability to have squires, so the resonance does nothing. 

[Cosmere nerd]

Who is glys and who is zahel?!?!?! I feel like I'm not remembering a couple of major characters. Please respond!

[Hero-of-Pages]

1 minute ago, Cosmere nerd said:

Who is glys and who is zahel?!?!?! I feel like I'm not remembering a couple of major characters. Please respond!

Zahel is the ardent who trained Renarin, Kaladin, and Adolin. We see him in WoR.

 

Glys is Renarin's spren. We haven't really seen him. I think he is only mentioned a couple times.

[yulerule]

Glys is Renarin's spren. Zahel is an ardent who starts training Kaladin and bridge 4 with Shardblades. He is also a character from Warbreaker.

[Secret Ardent Man]

Dear Lord. Those Kaladin reveals to Hearthstone were six years in the making. And they were glorious. 

[Catladyman]

3 hours ago, Edonidd said:

  But I've said before, Brandon Sanderson chose to make Renarin Autistic (or on the spectrum or whatever, not trying to be offensive just don't know the current PC acceptable term) and based him or at least had him inspired by an actual friend of his.  There is no way he chooses to then make that character one of the bad guys.  Although Renarin murdering somebody to help his brother seems slightly feasible when you think about it from the standpoint of the autistic spectrum not really understanding how to fit in and/or relate to society.  

 

Thank you for making this point! Brandon would not take so much care in realistically creating a character on the spectrum just to make him a villain. Remarks presents as mostly neurotypical, but just a little off, so in-world people react to him as creepy. 

Do we have a WoB guaranteeing Renarin viewpoints in the future? Just wondering because it has to be pretty difficult to do a POV for someone on the spectrum without being there himself. 

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Catladyman said:

Do we have a WoB guaranteeing Renarin viewpoints in the future? Just wondering because it has to be pretty difficult to do a POV for someone on the spectrum without being there himself. 

Absolutely. The front 5 main characters are Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Szeth, and Eshonai. 

The back 5 are Jasnah, Lift, Taln, Ash, and Renarin. 

I'm fairly sure that's a guarantee. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Calderis

[Catladyman]

Thanks @Calderis! 

 

I still think that everyone's assertion that Renarin must be a murderer/odiums champion/generally creepy is the result of a combination of his being on the spectrum and truthwatcher behaviors, as opposed to true foreshadowing.