[OB] Oathbringer chapters 7-9

[PunSpren]

30 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I think the hype about Renarin is totally overdone. We have practically no concrete knowledge about him, and I'm reading all the comments, I think people are building a tower of cards based on basically nothing. We don't have enough info! You people are speculating based on other people's speculation, probably turtles all the way down. I'm waiting for a bigger chunk before I start forming opinions.

Upvote for Turtles all the way down lol

[Fulminato]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yms spren also hid. 

The Vorin prohibition on foretelling is born of the Hierocracy, which occurred after the Recreance. 

We don't know what is going on with Renarin, but until we see some reason to actually indicate the influence of a voidspren, nothing Renarin has done has been indicative of something wrong. 

It might have to do with those glyphs on Dalinar’s wall yesterday. They seemed like a countdown.” She nodded. “Have you ever seen anything like that before?”
“I remember . . . something,” she whispered. “Something bad. Seeing what is to come—it isn’t of Honor, Kaladin. It’s something else. Something dangerous.” WoR Chapter 4.

i alwasy find syl word very ominus

[WhiteLeeopard]

Quote

“We’ll see. I’ll return as soon as I can.” Kaladin set his jaw, then walked to the front door of the manor. He pulled it open, letting in the sounds of rain, the scents of a drowned land.

Hmm, I'm actually now wondering if Hearthstone arc isn't over. Go some Voidbringer scouting, then return for a brief visit to offer any to go to Kholinar or Urithiru?

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Hmm, I'm actually now wondering if Hearthstone arc isn't over. Go some Voidbringer scouting, then return for a brief visit to offer any to go to Kholinar or Urithiru?

He's definitely planning on bringing his family - at least his mother and new baby brother, if Lirin insists on staying at Hearthstone to work as a surgeon - to Urithiru, which is surely the place he meant as a safe haven. How he's going to bring them there is another question.

[yulerule]

13 minutes ago, robardin said:

Here's more "suspicious stuff":

- Ym (the cobbler that Darkness killed) was confirmed by a WoB to be a Truthwatcher in the making, and we saw him using his powers to heal children. Yet we've never seen Renarin do any Surgebinding at all, neither Progression (healing) nor Illumination (lightweaving).

- Nobody has ever seen him talking to his spren the way people have caught Kaladin and Shallan do. Only that "Glys" told him he's a Truthwatcher.

 

You're very suspicious. I can accept that we've never seen him use surgebinding on one hand, yet on the other, we've barely seen him, and he might have been hiding his abilities.

On the meta side, though the less we see of a character, that increases suspicion. We've never had a Renarin PoV, and we haven't had anybody really close to him. I suppose we need to pay attention to Dalinar and Adolin chapters, and if they commented about Renarin. 

Shallan keeps finding him creepy. It might be a subconscious thing, since I bet that bonded spren might "feel" other bonded spren nearby, and if Pattern isn't feeling anything or feeling something off that might translate to Shallan subconsciously being creeped out. Pin the other hand it might be just her.

Can you find that WoB that says something major is going on? (Brandon might be just saying that being a KR is major....)

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

It might have to do with those glyphs on Dalinar’s wall yesterday. They seemed like a countdown.” She nodded. “Have you ever seen anything like that before?”
“I remember . . . something,” she whispered. “Something bad. Seeing what is to come—it isn’t of Honor, Kaladin. It’s something else. Something dangerous.” WoR Chapter 4.

i alwasy find syl word very ominus

Eh. I honestly don't put my stock in that. Spren are subject to the beliefs that give them form. A few hundred years of people believing that foresight is evil is enough to change the Spren themselves. 

[+robardin]

51 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I think the hype about Renarin is totally overdone. We have practically no concrete knowledge about him, and I'm reading all the comments, I think people are building a tower of cards based on basically nothing. We don't have enough info! You people are speculating based on other people's speculation, probably turtles all the way down. I'm waiting for a bigger chunk before I start forming opinions.

You mean "cremlings all the way down", LOL

And if you're going to hunker down and RAFO, well, you've come to the wrong part of the forum!

[yulerule]

Well, I speculate also, I just like having greatshells as a base.

[+robardin]

54 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I think that depends on exactly how they work as keys. I don't think it said explicitly, but I got the impression that a living Shardblade was necessary because the spren can adjust its shape to become a key. In that case, no it wouldn't. If, on the other hand, it has more to do with Investiture than being a literal key, then I could see an Honorblade possibly working.

I thought that even the "dead" Shardblades reformed themselves to fit the lock, but wouldn't turn. But you're right, I don't think Honorblades can reform themselves the way that Sprenblades can, even the (mostly) dead ones.

 

(Great, now I'm thinking of Miracle Max from The Princess Bride saying, "it so happens your spren here is only MOSTLY dead! There's a big difference between mostly dead, and all dead... Mostly dead, is slightly alive!")

[Fulminato]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Eh. I honestly don't put my stock in that. Spren are subject to the beliefs that give them form. A few hundred years of people believing that foresight is evil is enough to change the Spren themselves. 

the memory of the spren haven't be untruth, they memory can be spotted, they forgot near all the memory, but the memory coming back aren't changed by modern way of thinking

Edited September 12, 2017 by Fulminato

[WhiteLeeopard]

Quote

His warcamp had been able to get out most of their spheres for recharging before the storm hit, giving him a huge amount of Stormlight compared to the rest of them. He was becoming a wealthy man as Dalinar traded for infused spheres to work the Oathgate and bring in supplies.

At this rate maybe once someone like Jasnah arrives they should start charging for entering Urithiru, and see if people finally stop trying to profit off the storming end of the world.

[maxal]

Full disclaimer here: I read none of the previous comments. I just wanted to drop in my impressions. I'll get back to reading the comments later, but right now, summer has decided it was back and there is a pool yelling my name  So here are my impressions and thoughts:

Chapter 7

I was really pleased many theory on Kaladin's homecoming turned out being completely totally wrong. No. Kaladin isn't a wreck anymore, yes he is assuming leadership and no, he is not hiding nor in danger of being imprisoned. It was such a refreshment, I love reading it. I am also super hyped on my "Lirin and Hesina had another child" theory coming true: Kaladin's reaction was just perfect and emotional. I feel little Oroden will play a role within the back five books.

I am also quite happy to see another theory of mine come to life: Laral is not broken. Yes, she was dealt a bad card in life, but she made the best out of it. She became the lady of Heartstone. She is the one in charge and it was marvelous. No Kaladin, she needs not saving: not everyone needs you to save them, some people are able to save their own selves. I also loved the little insight from what the story may have been from Roshone's side.... I knew there was more to it.

So Kaladin is about to go Voidbringer hunting in the wild? This ought to be interesting.

Chapter 8

Shallan. Finally. I note how she still is processing her last truth, it remains hard even if the cat is out of the bag. The servant girl being disappointed Shallan seems in no hurry to try out her Shardblade was an interesting note.... Roles will eventually change, it is inevitable.

From there we move into yet another Kholin family counsel, for which I am glad they didn't exclude Navani and Adolin for falling to become Radiants. Speaking of which Adolin was, once again, the only one to have a reaction upon seeing the interactive map appear out of thin air. Everyone else were just so calm and treating it as if it were normal. My impressions are Brandon is taking great care to have Adolin jump around at every occasion: excessive happiness, excessive surprise. I mean he always were reactive, but I felt so early in the book, there were many scenes where this is being highlighted.

Renarin is manning up! Ah it was great. He has inputs, thoughts, he comes to stand next to his father: it was amazing and perhaps the signs the tide is slowly changing... Renarin seems like he might grow into his father's right hand man in replacement of Adolin.

Chapter 9

So, one of the greatest mystery within SA has finally been explained: Renarin eyes are sapphire! Adolin has light blue eyes, so which shade of blue are Dalinar's.

Alright, now let's move onto the more serious matter: someone is copying Adolin's murder of Sadeas. Deliberately. My first thoughts went to Ialai: she knows. Or she suspects. So she has someone copy the murder in order to cause disruption, to cause the culprit to make a mistake. Increase the stakes, have the murderer think he will get pinned with more murders in order to force him to admit his guilt. Ialai is smart, cunning, patient: she ought to know Dalinar would appoint Adolin. Dalinar is SO predictable. 

The snare has been laid out and poor Adolin has no other choices but to walk right into it.

Speaking of which, his behavior is just suspect, but nobody notices but Shallan. I noticed how Adolin needed to hang onto Shallan to make it to the murder scene. I also took note how Brandon mentioned Adolin's injured wrist for the second time within 9 chapters: this will come into play. I am expecting Adolin to be forced to fight with his injured hand. Or I expect his hand is not healing right: it shouldn't be painful so long after the impact. 

Dalinar, really, needs to work onto his observation skills. Adolin's me? is so uncharacteristic of him, so out-of-character, so not Adolin, I am flabbergast only Shallan noticed. Oh and this one line where Adolin looks right into Shallan's eyes... and lies to her... and she believes him because she cannot conceive he might be deceitful. Oh Shallan and poor Adolin: how many times has he done this? How many times has he looked into his family members eyes and said: "Everything is fine, you have nothing to worry about?". This time however, he might not be able to cope. If I once thought Adolin would speak up early on in the story, I now suspect he won't. He can't. He has been doing this for too long: he will keep on juggling, keep on tip-toing around until he can't. I predict he'll have a mental breakdown or something along those lines and seeing how reactive he currently is, it will be.... something to read.

Renarin is being creepy. He knows something or he suspects something. My thoughts are he thinks or will think Adolin is the champion. His look didn't look friendly. Renarin will not support his brother: he'll think the worst out of him.

I have an insane amount of additional thoughts, but I'll leave it here for now... I need to read the comments first.

[Ansalem]

9 minutes ago, robardin said:

I thought that even the "dead" Shardblades reformed themselves to fit the lock, but wouldn't turn. But you're right, I don't think Honorblades can reform themselves the way that Sprenblades can, even the (mostly) dead ones.

 

(Great, now I'm thinking of Miracle Max from The Princess Bride saying, "it so happens your spren here is only MOSTLY dead! There's a big difference between mostly dead, and all dead... Mostly dead, is slightly alive!")

I was under the impression that it wasn't the Blade that changed to fit the lock, but rather the lock that changed to fit the Blade.

Although I think we have more to go on than just Blades changing shape. Szeth has been to Urithiru. During the storm at the end of WoR, he saw the army disappear off of the plateau and he knew that they had gone to Urithiru, which means he knows what the Oathgates are. But instead of attempting to use the Oathgate, he immediately starts flying toward Urithiru, because his goal was to kill Dalinar not fight Kaladin. Maybe he just didn't want to attempt using the Oathgate with Kaladin right on his heels, but I would think he would rather fight off Kaladin and use the gate instead of flying all the way to Urithiru.

Then again, Szeth wasn't exactly in the most sound state of mind at the time.

[+robardin]

maxal's recap reminded me to ask: hey, where was Elhokar during Dalinar's little council that he waited for Shallan to arrive at to begin? You know, the KING?

Quote

 

“Um, Brightness Radiant?” the scout asked after bowing. “The highprince has requested your presence.”

...

They soon arrived, and the scout took up duty at the door in case her services were needed again. Shallan entered a room that only a day before had been empty, but was now arrayed with furniture, creating a large meeting place right outside Dalinar and Navani’s private rooms.

Adolin, Renarin, and Navani sat before Dalinar, who stood with hands on hips, contemplating a map of Roshar on the wall.

 

Either this was a major diss on Elhokar, or - what I think is actually the case - whatever Dalinar meant by saying to him that "I have things to discuss with you. Plans that you might appreciate" at his marriage to Navani is now in motion.

I think it has to do with the situation in Kholinar, where Elhokar's wife and child are, and which appears to be in a state of some unrest. An ideal scenario for Elhokar to show some leadership and strength... With some prepping and guidance from Dalinar.

 

[Elena]

Just finished reading the second Shallan chapter, and all I can thank about is that Adolin absolutely definitely needs a hug. Somebody hug that kid.

[Ardjet]

9 minutes ago, maxal said:

My first thoughts went to Ialai: she knows. Or she suspects. So she has someone copy the murder in order to cause disruption, to cause the culprit to make a mistake. Increase the stakes, have the murderer think he will get pinned with more murders in order to force him to admit his guilt. Ialai is smart, cunning, patient: she ought to know Dalinar would appoint Adolin. Dalinar is SO predictable. 

The snare has been laid out and poor Adolin has no other choices but to walk right into it.

Personally, this is my belief/concern as well. Ialai is out for blood, she just needs to find out whose she needs. Given that Sadeas' last on-screen demand of her was to find something to hurt Dalinar, this idea terrifies me. there is so much she can do depending on what her spies have discovered thus far. And if one of them discovers Adolin did the deed...

[maxal]

13 minutes ago, robardin said:

maxal's recap reminded me to ask: hey, where was Elhokar during Dalinar's little council that he waited for Shallan to arrive at to begin? You know, the KING?

Either this was a major diss on Elhokar, or - what I think is actually the case - whatever Dalinar meant by saying to him that "I have things to discuss with you. Plans that you might appreciate" at his marriage to Navani is now in motion.

I think it has to do with the situation in Kholinar, where Elhokar's wife and child are, and which appears to be in a state of some unrest. An ideal scenario for Elhokar to show some leadership and strength... With some prepping and guidance from Dalinar.

 

Oh I have had a thought today as to what Dalinar may have meant when he said those things to Elhokar!!!! He wants to give him the Honorblade.

10 minutes ago, Elena said:

Just finished reading the second Shallan chapter, and all I can thank about is that Adolin absolutely definitely needs a hug. Somebody hug that kid.

Yes. Please. Someone hug Adolin. That kid is going to crack and when he does, it will not be pretty nor quiet.

10 minutes ago, Ardjet said:

Personally, this is my belief/concern as well. Ialai is out for blood, she just needs to find out whose she needs. Given that Sadeas' last on-screen demand of her was to find something to hurt Dalinar, this idea terrifies me. there is so much she can do depending on what her spies have discovered thus far. And if one of them discovers Adolin did the deed...

And the last thing Dalinar needs is a murder investigation, so what when he finds out this whole mess was caused by Adolin? What when he finds out his perfect son has been outright lying to him? Oh... I so do not want to be into Adolin's shoes right now, I feel he is going to dig himself deeper and deeper into his lies until there are just no way out but to burst.

[+Wax]

Are we seeing a pattern here?

Prologue: eshonai

chapter 1: Dalinar

chapter 2: Adolin, Dalinar

chapter 3: Dalinar (flashback)

chapter 4: Dalinar

chapter 5: Kaladin

chapter 6: Kaladin

chapter 7: Kaladin

chapter 8: Shallan

chapter 9: Shallan

I am guessing here that chapter 10-12 will go Dalinar and Adolin's perspectives.

 

[hypatia]

To Renarin

I know it is said 'Truthwatcher', but he isn't anything like the Truthwatchers we know about.

Fortelling is associated with Cultivation - how about him being one of the other Bondsmiths?

And really, is this about people don't know about the Silver Kingdoms or a mistake?

Kurth (Jasnah's guess) and Rall Elorim were in the old kingdom of Iri and they totally forget the kingdom of Rishir.

I would so like a Oathgate in Herdaz.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Quote

“I… No, I didn’t know him, Shallan. But I’d assumed… I mean, I figured the death of Sadeas was an isolated crime. You know how he was. Probably got himself into trouble. Any number of people could have wanted him dead, right?”

Tsk, I don't see what is wrong with this comment, must be what everyone (not the readers obviously) were thinking.

12 minutes ago, maxal said:

Oh I have had a thought today as to what Dalinar may have meant when he said those things to Elhokar!!!! He wants to give him the Honorblade

Ugh. That makes sense, its so bloody Dalinar. 

Never mind that Elhokar has shown 0 ability at anything, and the end of the world is not a good time to coddle grown ups where that same Hnorblade could save thousands of lifes in the right hands. I also can't help that feel that Kaladin should have a say on who gets the Honorblade, given he is the only Windrunner around, shouldn't he pick someone he feels can embody the ideals? Otherwise they may be falling down the "too much power in the wrong hands" again. 

Edited September 12, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[+robardin]

10 minutes ago, maxal said:

Oh I have had a thought today as to what Dalinar may have meant when he said those things to Elhokar!!!! He wants to give him the Honorblade.

We could both be right. He could be literally flying off to "fix" the situation in Kholinar.

Anybody else feel a little frisson of unease at the idea of Elhokar as a Windrunner "without the checks a spren requires"?

[FeatherWriter]

@yulerule If you're curious about the basis of Renarin theorization, characterization, and hype, I would be happy to indulge that, though I won't derail the thread to do so. As @DSC01 said, there's quite a bit of nuance on his character and we know more about him than you might expect. He's easy to miss, but he's certainly not incomprehensible.

Also, I've kept most of my talk to the Discord thread because chat is easier than forums, but I'll say this. That chapter is Shallan's POV and I don't think that's insignificant in terms of the way Renarin is portrayed in it. To pull a quote from a good friend of mine regarding Renarin's so-called "creepiness" in this chapter: "Renarin is socially awkward in a way that makes him hard to read, Shallan is defensive and deeply traumatized and paranoid."

(I'm trying to be good but I gotta defend my fave, y'all. I gotta. He's my boy.)

[dionysus]

19 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

That chapter is Shallan's POV and I don't think that's insignificant in terms of the way Renarin is portrayed in it. To pull a quote from a good friend of mine regarding Renarin's so-called "creepiness" in this chapter: "Renarin is socially awkward in a way that makes him hard to read, Shallan is defensive and deeply traumatized and paranoid."

(I'm trying to be good but I gotta defend my fave, y'all. I gotta. He's my boy.)

Something I am coming to appreciate more and more in SA is that we have a bunch of unreliable narrators. A lot of authors have the narrators exposition inevitably be true especially when it comes to impressions of people, but that is not the case here. Kaladin is particularly unreliable, but all the protagonists' viewpoints are affected by their biases.

Edited September 12, 2017 by dionysus

[Ardjet]

1 minute ago, dionysus said:

Something I am coming to appreciate more and more in SA is that we have a bunch of unreliable narrators. A lot of authors have the narrators exposition inevitably be true especially when it comes to impressions of people, but that is not the case here. Kaladin is particularly unreliable, but all the protagonists' viewpoints are affected by their biases.

This. Sanderson seems to be the only one who recognizes that people are flawed. We believe what we want, ultimately, and are often wrong when we think we know something. Why should a person in a book(for all intents a real person in the context of that world) be all-knowing and perfectly truthful?

[Steeldancer]

1 minute ago, Ardjet said:

This. Sanderson seems to be the only one who recognizes that people are flawed. We believe what we want, ultimately, and are often wrong when we think we know something. Why should a person in a book(for all intents a real person in the context of that world) be all-knowing and perfectly truthful?

Yes. Seeing the flaws in my favorite character (Dalinar) is great. Makes him feel more real.