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[OB] The Bondsmiths Killed Honour


BlackYeti

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When reading chapter 4, I noticed the Stormfather make a very suspicious claim: that Dalinar was the first person to bind him in millennia.

Why is this suspicious? This would mean that Radiants were bonding him before the Recreance, however, the Stormfather couldn't have existed back then as we know him since he is Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow fused with the spren that previously governed the Highstorms, and we know that Honour was alive during the Recreance since he was able to send Dalinar a vision of it from his memories.

How then could he have been bound millennia ago?  What if the Bondsmiths didn't bond the spren of the Highstorms in the past? What if they instead bonded Honour himself? The Shards of Adonalsium are, after all, technically spren, so is there a reason that they couldn't be bonded the way "normal" spren are bonded?

Could the reason for Honour's death actually be the same reason as the death of the other Radiant spren? Bondsmiths never received Shardblades, so his death couldn't manifest in the same way as "normal" spren. Also, unlike "normal" spren, Honour had a Vessel: Tanavast. When the Radiant breaks their Oaths, the spren's mind dies; in Honour's case, could this not manifest as the separation of the Vessel from the power and the Splintering of said power?

This would explain something that has been at the back of my mind for a while. The Bondsmiths are supposedly the Order closest to Honour, and yet the spren of the Highstorms predates the arrival of the Shards on Roshar, and is thus presumably of Adonalsium and therefore no closer to Honour than to any of the other Shards. Why would the Order closest to Honour bond a spren unrelated to Honour? But what could be closer to Honour than Honour?

This would also give extra meaning to the Stormfathers claim at the end of Words of Radiance: "I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME!" If this theory is true, he's already been killed once already.

When Dalinar was unable to get the Ardents to marry him to Navani, he went over their heads and sought a higher authority, the Stormfather. Could Brandon be foreshadowing the temperament of the Bondsmiths as a whole here? They couldn't get any "normal" spren to bond them, so they went over their heads and bonded the ultimate authority: the Shard of Honour.

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I like it!

Random thought: If Ishar is indeed the traitor among the Heralds, could he have been the one that broke the bond that killed Honor?

I'm having a bit of a hard time reconciling that (once Ishar abandoned the Oathpact I can't imagine Honor allowing Ishar to bond him) but it would certainly give greater impact to 'one is almost certainly a traitor to the others.'

The more I think about your theory the more I like the simplicity, but if true whoever had been bonded to Honor HAS to be a fairly major character.  I don't see Brandon having Honor killed by generic Bondsmith #3.

(And I know Honor says in one of the visions 'Odium has killed me' or something to that effect, but he could just have been referring to the mastermind behind the breaking of the bonds, Ishar/whoever being just a pawn.)

 

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9 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

I like it!

Random thought: If Ishar is indeed the traitor among the Heralds, could he have been the one that broke the bond that killed Honor?

I'm having a bit of a hard time reconciling that (once Ishar abandoned the Oathpact I can't imagine Honor allowing Ishar to bond him) but it would certainly give greater impact to 'one is almost certainly a traitor to the others.'

The more I think about your theory the more I like the simplicity, but if true whoever had been bonded to Honor HAS to be a fairly major character.  I don't see Brandon having Honor killed by generic Bondsmith #3.

(And I know Honor says in one of the visions 'Odium has killed me' or something to that effect, but he could just have been referring to the mastermind behind the breaking of the bonds, Ishar/whoever being just a pawn.)

 

The problem with Ishar being the person who broke the bond is that the Heralds don't themselves bond spren, but rather get their powers from the Honourblades.

I think a more important question than "who broke Honour's bond?" would be "what caused the Recreance in the first place?" This theory gives us a mechanism for how Honour's death happened, but it does nothing to account for what lead up to it.

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I do enjoy this theory because if the Bondsmiths destroyed Honor then it would explain Mr.T's quote from the diagram that stated something along the lines of "hold onto the secret that destroyed the KR, it might be needed again"  whatever it was that caused the Recreance i believe that it was an internal affair. I dont really think breaking the oaths would have "killed" Honor, but perhaps weakened him enough that Odium could then win. and with Honor knowing this he created the visions in his last moments before the showdown. but this is just my own speculation. Im ecstatic to find out what really happened!

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I don't think that the Bondsmith spren are different now than they were before. 

The Stormfather existed before Honor's death, he was just changed by the merger. 

Quote

"Q: The pocket companion states that there are three spren that can bond a person to make them into a bondsmith, the Stormfather being one of them. As far as I recall the books implied that the number was low, and implied heavily that it was around that number in an epigraph, but didn't actually have a straight confirmation. So, should I take that as canon?
 
A: Yes, you can take that as canon. They came to me for that information.
 
Q: Sweet. I guess it hasn't been canonized which three spren these are? I seem to recall that the prevailing theory on 17th Shard was that Nightwatcher was one of them, and the third was that weird spren with too many faces that Axies the Collector looked at in the tWoK interlude.
 
A: RAFO. :)"

That's from Pagerunners Reddit WoB collection. 

There are three distinct and unique Bondsmith spren. 

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3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that the Bondsmith spren are different now than they were before. 

The Stormfather existed before Honor's death, he was just changed by the merger. 

That's from Pagerunners Reddit WoB collection. 

There are three distinct and unique Bondsmith spren. 

Yeah. The Stormfather definitely existed. Syl says he is broken now (I think she believes it is because he survived being bonded during the Recreance) but merging with the cognitive shadow could have been a factor as well. We still really don't know how he changed.

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When we hear the Stormfather talking it seems to be the spren's personally, not Tanavast's. The Stormfather refers to Honor as a separate person. I'm yet to understand how the merging works but the Stormfather seems to be clearly referring to his pre-splintering bonding as a bondsmith spren, not as an alive vessel.  We know the Stormfather bonded previously because Syl said so and because of the WoB Calderis cited. What is new in this information is yay the recreance was at least 2000 years ago (assuming the words spoken were relatively accurate).

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We know from other WOBs that Roshar was created by Adonalsium, and it had a pre-existing highstorm/spren/other life ecosystem before Honor/Cultivation/humans gate crashed the planet at a later date.  I think Stormfather existed originally as this large chunk of investiture powering the highstorms left behind by Adonalsium, which eventually gained sentience over time and developed a personality as a result of how the storm was viewed by the Listeners.  When Tanavast/Honor later moved onto the planet, the highstorm became associated with Honor both in function and in the minds of men.  I think Honor started infusing a lot of his own investiture into the highstorms at this point, well beyond their original power.

Although Odium has splintered the Honor shard and killed Tanavast, the magic systems powered by the Honor shard seem to be largely working as intended (no chaotic magical mishaps like with the Dor).  I think this implies that Stormfather is now acting as a caretaker/holder of the power of the Honor shard.  As a spren/shadow, he lacks a physical form and thus can't use the shard to its full potential, but he can at least keep the magic from going haywire as Odium would surely prefer.  Sort of like role Preservation's Shadow served.

So, sorry for the rambling, but I think Stormfather is a confusing jumbled mess currently.  He started out as just a large powerful spren personifying the storm, but then became more Honor-like as Honor infused its investiture into the highstorms, got blurred with Honor in the minds of men, and finally got stuck acting as caretaker for Honor's investiture and perhaps containing some element of Honor's shadow.  Poor spren probably has huge identity issues.

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We know that the majority of Radiants who participated in the Recreance abandoned their Shards, however it's likely that given how crucial the Stormfather is to the Rosharan ecosystem, the then Bondsmith died to allow the bond to dissipate naturally. (That and it's possible the Bondsmith was like Dalinar, and couldn't summon the Stormfather as a weapon)

Whilst the Storm father was originally of Adonalsium, the Shard's arrival changed the system somewhat

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22 minutes ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

(That and it's possible the Bondsmith was like Dalinar, and couldn't summon the Stormfather as a weapon)

More than possible. Bondsmiths never had blades. 

Quote

Questioner

And there's one last question if I may: I'm really into swords and such. I couldn't help but notice king Elhokar's Blade. It's just... All the others are ornamented, and they may have some glyphs, but it is the only one where it is explicitly it is told that there are ten fundamental glyphs on it which are the glyphs of the orders. I read some of the chapters from Dalinar from Unfettered II, and I know how he got it for Elhokar. Is there also some more backstory to this Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a backstory to every Blade and every one of them is special, that's the problem. But I will be exploring the origins of some of the Blades. Eventually. Not a ton, but a little bit.

Questioner

As it is ornamented in such a way... Could it be related to a Bondsmith?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith's didn't have Blades.

Questioner

All of them? It's just... Maybe it was just the Stormfather...

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's a really good guess. Really good guess. I'm gonna RAFO Bondsmiths because you gonna learn a lot about them in the next book because it's the Bondsmith's book. That's a really good theory, but it's not true. 

Questioner

But maybe there is at least something to it.

Brandon Sanderson

But there's a reason to it, why it has all the 10 orders.

 

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18 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

We know from other WOBs that Roshar was created by Adonalsium, and it had a pre-existing highstorm/spren/other life ecosystem before Honor/Cultivation/humans gate crashed the planet at a later date.  I think Stormfather existed originally as this large chunk of investiture powering the highstorms left behind by Adonalsium, which eventually gained sentience over time and developed a personality as a result of how the storm was viewed by the Listeners.  When Tanavast/Honor later moved onto the planet, the highstorm became associated with Honor both in function and in the minds of men.  I think Honor started infusing a lot of his own investiture into the highstorms at this point, well beyond their original power.

Although Odium has splintered the Honor shard and killed Tanavast, the magic systems powered by the Honor shard seem to be largely working as intended (no chaotic magical mishaps like with the Dor).  I think this implies that Stormfather is now acting as a caretaker/holder of the power of the Honor shard.  As a spren/shadow, he lacks a physical form and thus can't use the shard to its full potential, but he can at least keep the magic from going haywire as Odium would surely prefer.  Sort of like role Preservation's Shadow served.

So, sorry for the rambling, but I think Stormfather is a confusing jumbled mess currently.  He started out as just a large powerful spren personifying the storm, but then became more Honor-like as Honor infused its investiture into the highstorms, got blurred with Honor in the minds of men, and finally got stuck acting as caretaker for Honor's investiture and perhaps containing some element of Honor's shadow.  Poor spren probably has huge identity issues.

I think Sel is scewed up because of the mixing of shards. It may be that since Honor alone was splintered, it isn't as bad. I think some of the investiture also went towards increasing the number of spren but I'm not sure where I read that.

 

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8 minutes ago, nervousnerd said:

I think Sel is scewed up because of the mixing of shards. It may be that since Honor alone was splintered, it isn't as bad. I think some of the investiture also went towards increasing the number of spren but I'm not sure where I read that.

 

Sel is screwed up because the Shards are mixed and trapped in the Cognitive Realm, rather than the spiritual where they belong. 

Honor had no such thing happen. His investiture is splintered, but the Cognitive Realm of Roshar is still a traversable landscape. 

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4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Sel is screwed up because the Shards are mixed and trapped in the Cognitive Realm, rather than the spiritual where they belong. 

Honor had no such thing happen. His investiture is splintered, but the Cognitive Realm of Roshar is still a traversable landscape. 

It's not just Sel though.  Threnody is also a magic mess as a result of Odium heavily wounding the shard of Ambition there.  Honor was splintered on Roshar but surgebinding seemingly proceeds much the same as before.  This implies to me that someone is making certain Honor's investiture is cycling through Roshar in a stable manner.  Likely Stormfather, but Cultivation may also be playing a role too.

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11 hours ago, nervousnerd said:

I think Sel is scewed up because of the mixing of shards. It may be that since Honor alone was splintered, it isn't as bad. I think some of the investiture also went towards increasing the number of spren but I'm not sure where I read that.

 

 

14 hours ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

We know that the majority of Radiants who participated in the Recreance abandoned their Shards, however it's likely that given how crucial the Stormfather is to the Rosharan ecosystem, the then Bondsmith died to allow the bond to dissipate naturally. (That and it's possible the Bondsmith was like Dalinar, and couldn't summon the Stormfather as a weapon)

Whilst the Storm father was originally of Adonalsium, the Shard's arrival changed the system somewhat

“Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”

the stormfather survive the recreance borkening oath, and after the splinering of honor the spren with mind are many more.

Edited by Fulminato
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The name of the book, Oathbringer, being the same as the shardblade Dalinar held seems entirely too coincidental. 

Spoiler

In one of the previously released flashbacks we find out the sword was also held by Sunmaker (led fight against ardents during Heirocracy).  

The epigraphs for the first few chapters seem to indicate the 'person' who wrote the book unexpectedly survived.  What if Tanavast managed to trap himself in a shardblade?  (I have no idea how he'd write a book...)

 

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