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[OB] Oathbringer 4-6


Steeldancer

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I just re-read the chapter headings in the "voice" of each of the characters.  (Mistborn Series 1 Spoilers)

Spoiler

While I suspect we'll be led along for awhile much as we were we were regarding the Hero of Ages' identity,

I suspect we will probably be misled a few times before we lock on.  I like the idea of Jasnah, but that doesn't feel right anymore - partially because I think she'll end up as the Vessel of between one and three Shards before this is all over.  I think it's Shallan, as she is associated with Jasnah and so could bear the mark of heresy and could also be thought lost in Shadesmar, or may later become so.

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16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He has to have something from Dalinar. Without it, there's no calm resolution to this problem. 

I'm not sure how much good something like that would do him to be honest.

From the perspective of Roshone's guards, Kaladin's just a dangerous deserter/slave who's attacking their Brightlord. Even if they were able to read, they wouldn't wait to check such a document: they'd immediately attack Kaladin, and wouldn't be concerned whether they killed or injured him.

At this point, Kaladin's only options are to fight them or to summon Syl.

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There were some other things I wanted to discuss... specifically about the rift probably being the climax of Dalinars flashbacks. 

I'm also really curious if Dalinar will sort of end up being ruler of roshar, and elkohar will answer to him as king of alethkar. That would probably be the best way to resolve the whole authority issue. 

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@WhiteLeeopard

Lirin was more connected with Kaladin, he was his apprentice, the stolen broms were for his studies.

And I feel there will be more than one conflict between father and son - one here, one with Dalinar and Renarin.

Lirin perhaps expects Kaladin to follow him anew as a surgeon, Dalinar wants Renarin as a fighting Radiant like Kaladin

Edited by hypatia
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2 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

At this point, Kaladin's only options are to fight them or to summon Syl.

I don't doubt he's going to put that single guard down quickly because he has to. 

Immediately follow that with "I'm here under order from Dalinar Kholin, Highprince of War" and break out the paperwork and viola, problem solved. 

5 minutes ago, Flash said:

There were some other things I wanted to discuss... specifically about the rift probably being the climax of Dalinars flashbacks. 

I think it will probably be the climax, but not the end. I think think after those events we'll see him go to the Nightwatcher and get some answers. 

So I think we'll have a climax point, followed by an actual resolution. 

6 minutes ago, Flash said:

I'm also really curious if Dalinar will sort of end up being ruler of roshar, and elkohar will answer to him as king of alethkar. That would probably be the best way to resolve the whole authority issue. 

I hope not. I hope the Knights grow in numbers and he takes his proper role there, and works to unite the kingdoms themselves in an ambassador role, while the kingdoms remained autonomous but united, like they were during the silver kingdoms. 

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8 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

I'm not sure how much good something like that would do him to be honest.

From the perspective of Roshone's guards, Kaladin's just a dangerous deserter/slave who's attacking their Brightlord. Even if they were able to read, they wouldn't wait to check such a document: they'd immediately attack Kaladin, and wouldn't be concerned whether they killed or injured him.

At this point, Kaladin's only options are to fight them or to summon Syl.

If Kal fights them, it won't be a fight. They've alluded to it during his walk into the residence that he just brushes the guards aside without even thinking about it. He'll just push them all aside and when they won't give up, whip out Syl and say "I've tried being nice, now will you all please just STOP!" He's always been a great fighter, and being a KR makes him even better, even without stormlight.

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Okay. I’m going to share my thoughts without reading your comments. Then I will go back through and read your comments. I will make edits if your comments affect my opinions.

*Oathbringer is written by Jasnah! Here is where I squealed. :lol:

*Dalinar has the first four chapters? In TWoK and WoR the focus character had stepped back by now and allowed another POV chapter. (Adolin’s short reminder scene doesn’t count.) So I skipped ahead and saw Kaladin had the next two chapters without reading the content. Satisfied, I returned to Dalinar’s chapter.

*I knew the Everstorm didn’t renew stormlight from Edgedancer. Still, that is going to make things hard for our heroes until the first Highstorm of the year comes. Everstorms are bad, but they are survivable. This will upend civilization, but if handled the right way the humans can at least fight this war.  

*Navani is going gloveless. Even touching Dalinar’s face with her bare safehand. :wub: They are going to need to do something about that soon.

*Dalinar told Navani about his memory loss of Shshshsh. (Sadly, I did read the Thrill and I can’t recall her name either at the moment. I do remember she was an awesome character. I wonder how much we will read about her in part one.) So Dalinar did something awful the night his wife died and that led him to seek the Nightwatcher. I have a feeling the night his wife died or his visit to the Cultivation is going to be the end of Dalinar’s flashback sequence.

Quote

Navani said. “I’d let a confused dishwasher marry us.

*LOL. I love Navani. So we are getting a wedding already. :D Awesome.

*So Bridge Four is too high in status to guard even their Bondsmith? Have they all been raised in nahn? Are they considered to have a dahn like Kaladin had before Syl became his shardblade? Technically Kaladin wasn’t of the fourth dahn, but he had the same authority in the army and was paid nearly as much as a soldier of that rank.

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“You always are, Uncle,” Elhokar said. “It doesn’t stop you, but I don’t suppose that it should. Your life is defined by deciding what you want, then seizing it. The rest of us could learn from that, if only we could figure out how to keep up.”

* Elhokar is very incompetent, but I storms I like him. I hope he realizes his spren soon as well.

Quote

SO BE IT.

Well of Ascension spoiler.

Spoiler

*Reminds me of the simple ceremony Vin and Elend had when Sazed married them. The latter became a God so that makes Dalinar and Navani’s ceremony even more similar being married by a piece of another God.

 

*LOL all the awespren. Then glory and joy spren too. Cool. :D Nothing is going to bring this moment down. :D

*And here comes Kadesh to bring this moment down. <_< I think Dalinar and anyone who follows him will be branded a heretic soon. I wonder if ardentia will side with the Sons of Honor and try to seize power again.

*Okay on to the Kaladin chapter I read before. Nothing new here to comment on other than it feels tighter than the earlier draft.

*So Hearthstone’s people gathered at Roshone’s manor. Good to see so many made it.

*:o  Lirin and Hesina are there!?! :o Well, that is one theory I got wrong. Oh, they are so happy to see Kaladin. :lol: What a beautiful moment for him. So what if I am crying? Shut up.

*Kaladin’s regression is not surprising. It’s even healthy. For the first time in years, someone takes care of him. It was only for half an hour, but I hope it gave Kaladin some relief. He has suffered so much and it is good to see him taken care of for once.:)

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 He reached over and held up the hair in front of Kaladin’s forehead. “Storms, boy. What did you do? Hit a lighteyes?”

“Yes,” Kaladin said. Then punched him.

 

* :o ROFLOL. Yeah, that was just for Moash, Kaladin. Sure it was. ;)

Edited by eveorjoy
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“Don’t worry about that,” Hesina said. “We’ll deal with it, whatever the… trouble is. With all these wounded pouring in from the villages around, Roshone will need your father’s skill. Roshone won’t go making a storm and risk Lirin’s discontent—and you won’t be taken from us again.”

Poor parents. Shock incoming. Soon to learn their baby is (if still considered Alethi) probably on par of importance with a highprince, if not closer to the king. 

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His parents had never met Captain Kaladin, bodyguard to the most powerful man in Roshar.

I'm curious, my first instict was obviously Dalinar, but did that mean Elhokar? Real power vs theoretical power.

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Five years had passed. And four lifetimes.

And 3 of those lifetimes in 1 year. Could give anyone whiplash.

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“Write a letter to the highprince’s administrators,”

Have I said already how much I love Adolin?

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Perhaps it was time, for once, to stop letting the rain dictate his mood. 

Yes! Out of the depression.

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Roshone wore a lighteyes’ coat that was several seasons out of fashion—Adolin would have shaken his head at that

BFFs :wub:

Quote

“Storms, boy. What did you do? Hit a lighteyes?”

And thats enough to make a man a slave and destroy their life. Nothing new, but reminder of messed up country/religion.

Quote

Roshone dropped like a felled tree.

I thought he just fell to the floor, but now I wonder, is he unconscious?

Quote

“That,” Kaladin said, “was for my friend Moash.”

Hmmm, so much in 1 statement.

1. Calls him friend still, no resentment, just a kind of pity it seems

2. I expected the first hit to be for his family, or Tien.

p.s. sorry by so many posts, doing a reread and putting all my ideas as I go.

 

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@JoyBlu I also found the gloryspren around Navani to be quite odd. I don't want to believe that Navani is a "bad guy," but sometimes things feel off about her. And I get that she would feel victorious after trying for so long to "win" Dalinar. It makes sense logically why gloryspren would be there, but it still felt weird to me. That and how quickly she understood how he couldn't remember his former wife. She didn't even attempt to explain or answer anything about her. And yes, she could have just caught on really fast that he wasn't going to remember anything she said so she didn't waste her breath. But it still feels very off... I can't even place exactly why, but something has been bugging me about her, especially knowing that she had feelings for Dalinar back when he was a monster. He is so different than he used to be that it is odd that they are acting like their feeling haven't changed. Wouldn't feelings have to change when a person faces such a major transformation. Did she also just happen to change for the better?


Like I said, I don't want Navani to turn out to be an antagonist. I want her and Dalinar to be happy with each other. We know we are going to learn things about Dalinar that we aren't going to like. But, I definitely get the feeling that we are also going to learn something about Navani that we aren't going to like. 
And the overly suspicious part of me wonders if Navani played a role somehow in Dalinar's wife's death.

Either way, the wedding scene has set up the importance of the wedding vows, and I think this may be foreshadowing future struggles with keeping them. Now the real question is what could come in the way of them keeping their vows? I have a feeling something about the Rift will be a factor in this.

Edited by Spicker
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7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't doubt he's going to put that single guard down quickly because he has to. 

6 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

If Kal fights them, it won't be a fight. They've alluded to it during his walk into the residence that he just brushes the guards aside without even thinking about it. He'll just push them all aside and when they won't give up, whip out Syl and say "I've tried being nice, now will you all please just STOP!" He's always been a great fighter, and being a KR makes him even better, even without stormlight.

I agree that that one guard wouldn't be a problem for Kaladin, but I'm sure that Roshone has others. Without Stormlight, Kaladin would be at a major disadvantage against a group, especially if he's trying to avoid hurting them.

And the problem with paperwork, who's nearby who's in the room that could actually read it? The only person I can think of is Hesina, and, for obvious reasons, she might not be trusted on that matter.

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1 minute ago, BlackYeti said:

And the problem with paperwork, who's nearby who's in the room that could actually read it? The only person I can think of is Hesina, and, for obvious reasons, she might not be trusted on that matter.

Laral comes to mind pretty quickly. 

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Looks like I'm a little late, but initial reactions...

Chap 4

Preface writer sounds like Jasnah.

In the process of resolving a minor issue, Dalinar reveals interesting info (1st wife was hostage? Dalinar takes vengeance ... alone? The Rift and Rathalas - is that related to his wife being taken hostage? Is it the 'There' that Kadash mentions?) and opens up a bigger can of worms (the ardentia will be pissed!). Stormfather gives the OK in front of a big group - gonna be hard to deny Dalinar anything. And he finally acknowledges to himself that he's usurped Elhokar - will Dalinar attempt to become emporer of all Roshar with Elhokar still as king of Alethkar? That's a lot to take in for a chapter that's putatively about Dalinar marrying Navani.

 

Chap 5

Preface writer sounds even more like Jasnah.

Syl still doesn't understand so much - why are other bonded spren seemingly more capable in that regard? At least this time Kaladin's gloominess seems a little more justified because his parents may be dead.

 

Chap 6

If the preface writer isn't Jasnah, then Brandon is trolling us hard.

That reunion was more emotional for me than I was expecting. What did happen to the voidbringers - weren't there some parshmen in Roshone's household? When will Kaladin speak up to at least tell his parents what's going on? That punch - symbolically satisfying, but ultimately an empty gesture likely to cause more trouble for his family.

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I didn't find Navani's gloryspren to be strange. She has been since TWoK trying to snatch Dalinar, now she did, any woman would be smug of having finished the hunt. And I mean that in a positive way :P. I don't know if she will be an antagonist, not my gut feeling, but I have a feeling she holds secrets, or depths we have yet to see.

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Just now, BlackYeti said:

Yes, but unless I've missed something, she's not in the room. Could she get there faster than the rest of Roshone's guards?

I honestly don't think Roshone has enough guards for it to be an issue. And as long as Kal is standing back without attacking anyone while claiming authority granted by a Highprince with paperwork to be verified, I'm fairly sure that things would fall back into a standard operating procedure fairly quickly. 

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3 hours ago, Pammie said:
Quote

He bashed Roshone right in the face. A solid hit, exactly like Hav had taught him. Thumb outside of his fist, he connected with the first two knuckles of his hand across Roshone’s cheekbone, then followed through to slide across the front of the face. Rarely had he delivered such a perfect punch. It barely even hurt his fist.

Roshone dropped like a felled tree.

“That,” Kaladin said, “was for my friend Moash.”

This was, by far, the most satisfying thing I've ever read.

What I'm taking from this passage is that there's hope for Moash yet. Kaladin mentions him twice (once in his thoughts, once out loud), thinks of what happened to Moash's family and not once of the fact that Moash tried to kill him. He thinks of him as his friend first and as a betrayer second - I'm guessing he sees him as someone who ended up way over his head and did stupid things because of hatred and thirst for revenge, something Kal definitely can relate to an extent, given his own storyline in WoR, both with Amaram and in the assasination plot. He sounds like he would forgive Moash if he showed himself worthy of forgiveness.

I've never particularly cared much for Moash as a character beside thinking his story was rather tragic, but this reads to me like the narrative is setting up some possible redemption arc.

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I think Dalinar's making a lot of trouble for himself, and courting a strong response from reactionary elements in Alethkar.

- First, his dismissal of traditional Vorin religion (while understandable and based in fact in many cases) is going to alienate a lot of people who would otherwise be sympathetic to him. He's trying to introduce a lot of new ideas at once, and he needs a source of legitimacy more secure than his personal reputation for integrity.

- Second, he's not even maintaining the forms of submission to the throne anymore, which is going to be a constant source of humiliation for Elhokar. Aside from Elhokar's personal feelings, there's something inherently unstable about reserving real authority for Dalinar while Elhokar is nominally in charge of everything. It turns the king into a potential rallying point for anybody who wants to attack the status quo.

- Third, quite by accident his behavior immediately after learning of Sadeas' death could not be more suspicious. He alerts only his own cronies to have a secret conference, and appoints his biggest loyalist among the Highprinces to handle law enforcement for Urithiru. Aladar can't credibly promise to investigate Dalinar and his people seriously after everybody knows that he would follow Dalinar "to the end of the storms" if necessary, so any result that he comes to (short of calling for Adolin's head) is going to look tainted as a result.

One can easily imagine the story that Ialai will tell: Dalinar has usurped the throne in all but name so that he can impose his radical new ideas on Alethkar, and he'll murder anybody who gets in his way. All true Alethi need to rally around our true king and our one true (and definitely living) God.

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19 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think it will probably be the climax, but not the end. I think think after those events we'll see him go to the Nightwatcher and get some answers. 

So I think we'll have a climax point, followed by an actual resolution.  

both WotK and WoR have two different 'attraction point' in the regard of the flashback.

- WotK: the climax is the tien death, the 'resolution' is the amaran's betrayal

- WoR: the climax is the death of the shallan mother, the 'resoution' is the father's murder

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1 minute ago, Fulminato said:

both WotK and WoR have two different 'attraction point' in the regard of the flashback.

- WotK: the climax is the tien death, the 'resolution' is the amaran's betrayal

- WoR: the climax is the death of the shallan mother, the 'resoution' is the father's murder

Interestingly, according to your analysis the 'climax' in both of these cases actually takes place later in the book than the 'resolution'.

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4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I honestly don't think Roshone has enough guards for it to be an issue. And as long as Kal is standing back without attacking anyone while claiming authority granted by a Highprince with paperwork to be verified, I'm fairly sure that things would fall back into a standard operating procedure fairly quickly. 

I don't think it would be a long term problem, but I doubt anyone's going to take him seriously enough to bother reading it in the sort term.

He's a shash branded slave who just punched a Brightlord, and now he's claiming to have the support of one of the most powerful men in the world. He'd be regarded as insane, why would they bother to check any document that he produced, at least initially?

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2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm having severe Shallan withdrawal symptoms here. I can't imagine her quietly hanging out in the background is by accident though, so I can't help but wonder what's going on in Shallan-land.

I am in full agreement that Shallan's silence is intentional and mysterious, a way for Brandon to make us suspicious. Then I read this comment by @sooyangi

2 hours ago, sooyangi said:

I don't think she was there at the wedding. ...Maybe she's out exploring via a disguise? 

While unlikely given how little stormlight is available, what if the Shallan we've seen so far is actually a lightweaving attached to Pattern? It would explain her silences. If so, what is she actually off doing?

Quote

 “Was that real?” he whispered.

Yes, the Stormfather said. The enemy rides this storm. He’s aware of you, Dalinar.

This is concerning. Is it true of all Radiants or is Dalinar special? Kaladin hid underground, but didn't mention being noticed.

 

Finally, while this conversation has been great fun, carefully reading last week's thread and trying to meaningfully contribute to the discussion has been a huge time sink for me, and I am sorry to say that I will not be able to keep this up. I'll be skimming the discussion threads and commenting where I can for the rest of the preview chapters, but I won't be nearly as active. Props to all those who keep the conversation going!

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4 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I didn't find Navani's gloryspren to be strange. She has been since TWoK trying to snatch Dalinar, now she did, any woman would be smug of having finished the hunt. And I mean that in a positive way :P. I don't know if she will be an antagonist, not my gut feeling, but I have a feeling she holds secrets, or depths we have yet to see.

Like I said, it makes sense for the gloryspren to be there.  And I can't even argue why it felt weird to me, because I don't know myself. Maybe it was only a humorous nod to her finally "winning" Dalinar. Maybe the reason she feels off to me is because sometime's its hard for me to relate to her. I do like Navani for the most part. I don't want her to be an antagonist, and I definitely don't feel like she would be a major one. I just feel like there is something more going on with her relationship with Dalinar that we don't know, and I think that could possibly be a point of contention for their marriage. 

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13 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

I think Dalinar's making a lot of trouble for himself, and courting a strong response from reactionary elements in Alethkar.

- First, his dismissal of traditional Vorin religion (while understandable and based in fact in many cases) is going to alienate a lot of people who would otherwise be sympathetic to him. He's trying to introduce a lot of new ideas at once, and he needs a source of legitimacy more secure than his personal reputation for integrity.

- Second, he's not even maintaining the forms of submission to the throne anymore, which is going to be a constant source of humiliation for Elhokar. Aside from Elhokar's personal feelings, there's something inherently unstable about reserving real authority for Dalinar while Elhokar is nominally in charge of everything. It turns the king into a potential rallying point for anybody who wants to attack the status quo.

- Third, quite by accident his behavior immediately after learning of Sadeas' death could not be more suspicious. He alerts only his own cronies to have a secret conference, and appoints his biggest loyalist among the Highprinces to handle law enforcement for Urithiru. Aladar can't credibly promise to investigate Dalinar and his people seriously after everybody knows that he would follow Dalinar "to the end of the storms" if necessary, so any result that he comes to (short of calling for Adolin's head) is going to look tainted as a result.

One can easily imagine the story that Ialai will tell: Dalinar has usurped the throne in all but name so that he can impose his radical new ideas on Alethkar, and he'll murder anybody who gets in his way. All true Alethi need to rally around our true king and our one true (and definitely living) God.

I agree. But at the same time, when the world is ending, you move and do what you have to do to save it, or you watch it all get lost. If the alethi grumble too much Dalinar can just kick them out of Urithiru (try to open the Oathgate without a Radiant). Enough alethi have enough brains to know the end of the world has come.

The ardentia is most likely going to go down the chasms like crem-water. Doubt they will be able to survive the rise of the KR, what with the masculine and feminine arts, the spren, the almighty, lighteyes above darkeyes, appart from their own reputation within the church. Maybe Vorinism can drastically change and survive, but I doubt a religion is that flexible, specially when it shatters all their power without fast thinking. Much better to be chull heads, risk humanity and oppose the change. Ending with either destroyed world and no church, or succesful KR and no church.

I'm a great proposer that Alethi and KR need to separate sooner rather than later. Elhokar can accept Dalinar above him for the moment, then they separate or risk Roshar. It been Elhokar, not sure which he will pick.

Ialai, I'm sure we haven't seen the last of her, but the time for politicking is over, at least among the alethi. With other kingdoms, maybe there is still some diplomacy to do. The Alethi have had 2 books of their pettiness, and they have seen first hand it all come to a head. Get with the program or die.

12 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

Did he do something that I'm not remembering about proof?

Ah no, that was just me reminiscing over Adolin having killed Sadeas. (Hearthstone's highprince). Honestly, I'm just not too worried about the proof. It can be showed nicely, or it can be shown more harshly, but he has living proof just a thought away.

Edited by WhiteLeeopard
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