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[OB] Oathbringer 4-6


Steeldancer

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5 minutes ago, lookupwards said:

I found it odd that Syl wouldn't have wanted to introduce herself to Lirin/Hesina right away but I guess she could be waiting for an opportunity to do so in private later.  

I don't think that Lirin/Hesina are able to actually SEE Syl -besides in her form as shardweapon-, so how can she introduce herself? 

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14 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

Yeah, I don't really believe what I wrote, but worth a discussion since apparently she isn't defending herself!

At least in the Part One header we were promised POVs from "Dalinar * Shallan * Kaladin * Adolin", so we should be seeing some of Shallan soon. IIRC Part One was said to be quite short.

Not much to go on really, except the events at the end of WoR. Not a single description of how she looks, reacts, interacts, anything - just that she exists in the scene. Is this foreshadowing by lack of foreshadowing? :P

(I probably won't comment too much more on this since there's much more meaty things to discuss...)

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1 hour ago, redbishop said:

I can only assume that this is pretty much his plan, since he discovered things are largely intact.  His initial warn-them-and-help seems to be overcome by events, so...  now he can right a few wrongs.  He has seen a lot of maltreatment by Roshone, and there were quite a few comments where his scorn for the local soldiers is apparent.  Punch the Citylord out, summon a lambent shardspear, defeat the guard - bona fides established.

I wonder if his reunion with his parents - and the fact that they don't seem to hold ill-will regarding Tien's death - will lead to him no longer seeing himself as a slave, and the brands being healed in the first gasp of post-Weeping Stormlight?

Am I the only one here who doesn't like the idea of Kaladin summoning Syl as a shardblade to 'prove his credentials'.

That just seems cheap to me, I can't picture Kal wanting his parents to see him as a lighteyes moments after their reunion, he's still not comfortable with the change. And the idea of him using Syl to fight a guard, that he could likely beat with both arms tied behind his back, and who is just doing his job seems ludicrous to me.

And since punching out Roshone didn't read to me like Kal losing control and lashing out, it seemed like a decision he made quite knowingly, I can't imagine him backing it up by brawling with the guards.

All-in-all, I imagine someone in Urithiru will have prepared some kind of writ for Kaladin while they were requisitioning gemstones for his flight (fall). I don't think Kaladin will summon Syl as a weapon until he needs a weapon.

I am very curious about what Hesina got cut off from saying, I'm guessing it has something to do with some one from her side of the family being in Hearthstone

 

Edit:

Quote

At least in the Part One header we were promised POVs from "Dalinar * Shallan * Kaladin * Adolin", so we should be seeing some of Shallan soon. IIRC Part One was said to be quite short.

Actually I believe it has been said that part 1 is roughly 26% of the book, and that we'd be getting all of part 1 in the sample chapters

Edited by Bcknight2
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51 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

She was mentioned as being one of the people in the elevator with Dalinar right before the wedding. She is mentioned in chapter two as well, as one of those who Dalinar speaks to. He tells her and Renarin to practice with their powers so that they can help lead the other Radiants later.

Oooh I didn't catch that small detail! I guess it's because she was mentioned in passing, my mind moves on. I'm going to read the chapters one more time haha. And I remember her being there in chapter two. 

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2 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Mentioning Shadesmar so soon seems like too obvious a hint for Jasnah, so it's probably a head fake.

Navani was revealed as the author of the Words of Radiance book pretty early on, though, with no efforts to hide or fake out with it. There are so many clues already pointing to Jasnah (heretic, shadesmar, thought to be dead) that having it be someone else would be kind of having a twist for the sake of a twist.

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13 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

I don't think that Lirin/Hesina are able to actually SEE Syl -besides in her form as shardweapon-, so how can she introduce herself? 

If Syl wishes, she can reveal herself to whomever she wants (like she has done in the past to Sigzil).  I mean I also imagine Kaladin might actually introduce Syl himself, but in a more private setting most likely. My guess is Kaladin will probably summon his sword to protect people from something shortly, and he might introduce his shardblade in private to Lirin/Hesina afterwards.

If I were Kaladin I would want to bring my parents back to Urithiru but from what we know of Lirin, he would never abandon the townspeople unless they can all go together as a group and because Hearthstone is no longer safe.

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My first impression of what Hesina got cut saying was a new sibling. But of course could be totally wrong, and I imagine they would have been around if it were so. I don't think Kaladin did anything stupid in punching Roshone. He evaluated the situation, he saw the Voidbringers were not an immediate threat, so he enjoyed home for a short time, before deciding to fix some past wrongs/baggage. 

Roshone seems surprisingly "nice". Just typical arrogant lighteyes, but almost nice. If he had behaved like in Kaladin's flashbacks he would have demanded Kaladin arrested on sight, to gloat to Lirin, and would have never let the filthy darkeyes into his home. Instead he actually addressed Kal as a human -_-

I seriously doubt Kaladin would ever use Syl to fight a poor guard, if he summons her it would be just to stop a fight before it starts. Also not sure the requisitioners would have given Kaladin his slavery writ. Why bother? Just summon Syl and questions fixed. 

I'm glad his eyes turn brown again, oh, and change from first draft. Before said his eyes were blue when he used Stormlight or used Syl. Now just says Shardblade, no mention of light. Wonder if this will be said later or was a change in "abilities". Personally I'd prefer if it was just with Shardblade, as Kaladin always keeps some Stormlight inside him when he has access, except when he sleeps, and the lighteyes need reminders of darkeyes running around more important than them. 

Also, poor Vorinism is going down. How sad. Their options are acclaiming Dalinar as a prophet (or something), which they won't do, or become insignificant within a decade. Sadly, they may do a lot of damage between now and then. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Bcknight2 said:

All-in-all, I imagine someone in Urithiru will have prepared some kind of writ for Kaladin while they were requisitioning gemstones for his flight (fall). I don't think Kaladin will summon Syl as a weapon until he needs a weapon.

I doubt they would have provided something, same reason as noted above, a flying, glowing, shardblade wielding person doesn't need much.

11 minutes ago, kiapet said:

Navani was revealed as the author of the Words of Radiance book pretty early on, though, with no efforts to hide or fake out with it. There are so many clues already pointing to Jasnah (heretic, shadesmar, thought to be dead) that having it be someone else would be kind of having a twist for the sake of a twist.

Say what? I don't think that was the case, and a quick browse of the Coppermind doesn't suggest that at all. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Words_of_Radiance_(in-world)

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10 minutes ago, Bcknight2 said:

Am I the only one here who doesn't like the idea of Kaladin summoning Syl as a shardblade to 'prove his credentials'.

That just seems cheap to me, I can't picture Kal wanting his parents to see him as a lighteyes moments after their reunion, he's still not comfortable with the change. And the idea of him using Syl to fight a guard, that he could likely beat with both arms tied behind his back, and who is just doing his job seems ludicrous to me.

He may very well have a copy of the writ of emancipation that the tattoos (that never held for him) were supposed to be a backup for. 

This wasn't the way I expected Kal's return to go, but it is pretty believable.  He still hasn't gotten over his disdain for lighteyes, and Roshone was the one that kindled it.  He is a good soldier, and sees inept soldiers acting self-important.  He very recently overcame his fear of showing himself to be a KR.  Also, he is in Sadeas' territory, and has little love lost for Sadeas' soldiers.

Overall, I think it is entirely in character for Kaladin to opt for brute force rather than finesse in his opening negotiations, especially since time is of the essence.

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It's a small detail, but I'm really glad that Adolin is acting normally and seemed happy during the wedding. After his chapter last week I was scared he's gonna be nervous and grumpy all the time. And if his father didn't notice something is off about him, then maybe he will be fine and he won't be a suspect.

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2 minutes ago, redbishop said:

He may very well have a copy of the writ of emancipation that the tattoos (that never held for him) were supposed to be a backup for. 

This wasn't the way I expected Kal's return to go, but it is pretty believable.  He still hasn't gotten over his disdain for lighteyes, and Roshone was the one that kindled it.  He is a good soldier, and sees inept soldiers acting self-important.  He very recently overcame his fear of showing himself to be a KR.  Also, he is in Sadeas' territory, and has little love lost for Sadeas' soldiers.

Overall, I think it is entirely in character for Kaladin to opt for brute force rather than finesse in his opening negotiations, especially since time is of the essence.

I don't think anything that's happened so far can be seen as out of character, coldly decking Roshone in place of a greeting seems perfectly reasonable to me. 

But summoning a shardblade in front of a group of terrified townsfolk, after he's already recognized that he must look like dangerous vagabond to them, does seem out of character for a Kaladin with his rage under control... and he seemed in control while slugging Roshone.

If he does go that route I imagine his reunion with Lirin will take a sour note...

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24 minutes ago, Bcknight2 said:

Am I the only one here who doesn't like the idea of Kaladin summoning Syl as a shardblade to 'prove his credentials'.

That just seems cheap to me, I can't picture Kal wanting his parents to see him as a lighteyes moments after their reunion, he's still not comfortable with the change. And the idea of him using Syl to fight a guard, that he could likely beat with both arms tied behind his back, and who is just doing his job seems ludicrous to me.

There's lots of smart reasons for summoning Syl though. It's also "cool". It also makes a certain flashback scene in tWoK rather poetic - Laral had suggested to a young Kaladin that he could try to win a Shardblade and marry her (or something like that).

Anyway, with regards to more practical reasons: one, it stops any fighting right there. Two, it puts him in control of the immediate situation and the bigger problem - it would actually prove he outranks Roshane automatically. Three, it would give him believable grounds to explain what the heck he's been up to until now. He needs to do all that very quickly either way and I don't see another way to achieve that.

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10 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Words of Radiance wasn't written by Navani. It was written long ago, soon after the Recreance. BUT WoR had some chapter's headlines with sentences from Navani's journal, may be why the confusion. 

 

Yes, I was referring to the fact that parts of WoR had chapter headings from Navani's journal.

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10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

There's lots of smart reasons for summoning Syl though. It's also "cool". It also makes a certain flashback scene in tWoK rather poetic - Laral had suggested to a young Kaladin that he could try to win a Shardblade and marry her (or something like that).

Anyway, with regards to more practical reasons: one, it stops any fighting right there. Two, it puts him in control of the immediate situation and the bigger problem - it would actually prove he outranks Roshane automatically. Three, it would give him believable grounds to explain what the heck he's been up to until now. He needs to do all that very quickly either way and I don't see another way to achieve that.

As I alluded to in my other reply, summoning a shardblade to prove his 'superiority' and gaining control of the situation by terrifying everyone in the room, likely including Lirin and Hesina, would read more like him becoming one of the arrogant lighteyed a-holes, than a controlled Radiant...

Justifying his actions by declaring himself the highest rank in the room seems exactly like what Kal has been fighting against.

Edited by Chaos
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10 hours ago, Bcknight2 said:

As I alluded to in my other reply, summoning a shardblade to prove his 'superiority' and gaining control of the situation by terrifying everyone in the room, likely including Lirin and Hesina, would read more like him becoming one of the arrogant lighteyed a-holes, than a controlled Radiant...

Justifying his actions by declaring himself the highest rank in the room seems exactly like what Kal has been fighting against... 

It all depends on how it is done.  I can't see a circumstance where "Seize him!" aren't the next words uttered - can you see Kaladin allowing himself to be caged again under those circumstances?  I could see him summoning Syl and just telling them to step away - Lirin will attend to Roshone presently.  He doesn't have to pull rank, he can just ignore it altogether.

I agree with your allusion, though - the likelihood of a "This is my boomstick"-esque scene is unlikely and not befitting Kaladin's journey.  Of course, Kal also has a history of being rash at times when he should be patient, and pensive when he should be decisive.

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13 minutes ago, kiapet said:

Yes, I was referring to the fact that parts of WoR had chapter headings from Navani's journal.

And those headings were all tagged with "from the journal of Navani Kholin." 

The Oathbringer excerpts are obviously meant for us to be unaware of the author, where those were not.

On the current Kaladin discussion. He's in a tough spot unless he has his writ of freedom and something written from Dalinar. 

Breaking out his Shardblade has all the problems shown. Any Radiant powers have plenty of fear inspiring consequences as well. 

Without doing either of those things, he's just a darkeye slave/deserter. Nothing he says will be believed by anyone outside of Lirin and Hesina. 

He has to have something from Dalinar. Without it, there's no calm resolution to this problem. 

Edited by Calderis
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Ok, it is as I feared...Some hours late and already 4 pages of comments. Without reading any comments I'll put my own first impressions here and then go to a slow reread - work interfered.

1.) Epigraphs
The new epigraphs read as if the could have been written by Jasnah, though that would not fit to the assumption "Oathbringer" is an old in-world book.

2.) Wedding
Concerning Dalinar and Navani's wedding there are some remarkable points. First, ardents being unwilling, Dalinar circumvents the Vorin church and uses the Stormfather as "priest". Brilliant, but also dangerous in two ways: The Oath by the Stormfather I imagine to be very binding, no going back there, I guess. On the other hand, I guess the devotaries will cause trouble because of the slight in the future. The second point was Adolin's true happiness (joyspren around him) for his father and his aunt. Not really surprising, but very endearing.

Edit:
I totally missed the dishwasher. And I am fairly sure that this phrase was just to show how desperately Navani wanted to marry Dalinar, really no matter who performed the ceremony. As someone mentioned before, Zahel would have been an easier choice, he probably wouldn't have minded the opinion of the ardentia at all. Of course, using the Stormfather is just epic.
As for Navani showing gloryspren: She has been seducing Dalinar in the open for at least one and a half books now (I really don't know how much time that refers to inworld, I imagine about half a year), and she secretly coveted Dalinar at least since Gavilar's death 6 or 7 years ago, if not longer (Coveting Dalinar while still married to Gavilar would be counted as Oathbreaking by the Stormfather, I guess). I don't see anything sinister in her showing gloryspren after this long struggle against Dalinar's thickheadedness (some would call it orthodoxy), when she finally succeeds.

3.) Kaladin in Heartstone
After summoning a gloomspren (as mentioned a rare and severly hunted type of spren), Kaladin decides at last not to let the rain determine his mood. The meeting with his parents is perfect in my opinion. Though Lirin states that Kaladin should not have joined Amaram's army in the first place (a small reprimand), Kaladin is recieved by loving parents. Also a nice note: Kaladin returns home and nearly falls back into childhood. His parents treat him like he didn't change at all though he sees how everyone around him got older and a lot of things have changed. Oh how I recognize this feeling. Being with your parents and grandparents, you are always the child again - and have to work hard not to fall into old behaviour...It is not a bad thing, though.
I am eagerly looking forward to the situation with Roshone. I guess, finally Kaladin will kick chull and won't let himself be pulled down again. Another chapter would have been nice here, I can't wait for the next weeks!

Edit:
After having read the comments up to my posting from yesterday (bugger, over night there popped up 6 more pages), I can only say that Kaladin's punch was the most satisfying scene I've read in a long while. I don't see the need for him to pull Syl in the probably following brawl with Roshone's guards. They were described as wannabes, Kaladin can bring them down unarmed.
For the lack of stormlight: What happened to Lirin's bowl of spheres? He is tending to the wounded, so it might be near, if unmentioned until now. And at least some of those broams would still hold stormlight - even in the second half of the weeping (the Everstorm was summoned on Lightday, I think).

4.) New(?) Spren Types
Passionspren - romance during the Everstorm
Joyspren - Adolin is really happy for his father
Gloomspren - Kaladin attracts them first and wonders why they don't appear more often (that made me somehow laugh out loud!). Here we get an example that there are rare spren, who have to be near in the CR to be attracted to a quite common emotion. Perhaps a species in danger of extinction, they are hunted by Honorspren after all.
Starspren - not sure whether they are new or not.
Shockspren -  I think we haven't seen them before

5.) Dalinar doubts the Godliness of Honor
Another point of conflict with the devotaries, I would say. And he refers to his "vision" with the warm light as from something beyond. Do we really have something from what we call The God Beyond here, or does Dalinar assume too much?

Some more facts and questions:

- The Stormfather has been bonded before: "YES. THE FIRST IN MILLENNIA TO BIND ME" =>this also confirms the Recreance having happened at least two thousand years ago.
- There are baskets to lower spheres into Highstorms in Urithiru. Stormlight reserves shouldn't be a big problem after all (as soon as the Weeping ends)
- Dalinar confesses to Navani that he has no memories of Shshshsh (Evie) at all.
- The behaviour of the non-willing Ardent at the wedding makes me looking forward to more Dalinar flashbacks. What happened in the Rift?
- Spheres in the Everstorm are neither charged with Stormlight nor with Voidlight
- What does Syl's "Besides, there was... another voice. Pure with a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding..." mean? Any ideas?
Edit:
The suggestions I like most are Tien or Cultivation. I tend to prefer Cultivation (crystal, distant and demanding). Time she showed up, don't  you think?
- Honorspren used to hunt other spren (or still do in the CR?)
 

Edited by Pattern
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Kaladin doesn't have to summon a shardblade, he has to call for Syl.

She can show herself as a blade, but also as a Shardspear, a Shardfork or even as herself.

He must control the situation after the punch and to bring forth a writ without danger for anyone there should be a pause.

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1 hour ago, hypatia said:

I think the death of shshsh as a hostage and Dalinar full of hate and Thrill is connected with what had happened in Rathalas.

 

Yea I highly suspect based on Dalinars conversation with Kadash I suspect that Dalinar either killed or was involved with Shshshss death.  Which would fit with Dalinar getting his memories erased from the NIghtwatcher. I also suspect that  Kadash does not want Dalinar not to remarry not because of the sister in law thing but because of what he witnessed when Shhhshsh died. 

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Quote

“I let Tien die. I’m sorry. It’s my fault.…”

“Oh, Kaladin,” Hesina said, kneeling down beside him and pulling him into an embrace. “We got your letter, but over a year ago they told us you had died as well.”

“I should have saved him,” Kaladin whispered.

“You shouldn’t have gone in the first place,” Lirin said. “But now… Almighty, now you’re back.” Lirin stood up, tears leaking down his cheeks. “My son! My son is alive!”

Did anyone else feel all through the previous 2 books that Kaladin was the favorite kid? Tien was deeply loved, but with Kaladin...it seemed more. Specially for Lirin.

Also, so TWoK and WoR took roughly 4 months together? That seems fast.

On previous posts saying summoning Shardblade would incite panic...he can just summon it for a second then let it go. It may not be perfect, but its a lot better than wasting time that he knows they don't have. Plus, if these 2 chapters showed us anything, its that he has embraced the Radiant identity. He is not thrilled to have light eyes, but he is not ashamed of what he is. 

And when you say Kaladin is rash and impulsive, give him a break he is 20 years old :P. (Although sometimes I want to throttle him too). Just on my WoR reread though, he explicitly says Stormlight makes him more impulsive than normal. His most impulsive moment (4v1 duel) he was practically high on Stormlight. (Which has already been shown as a slight drug).

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I think it's also notable that the author of Oathbringer begins with, "I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims" (emphasis mine). This suggests to me the book is being written for a scholarly audience, rather than a general one as someone like Dalinar would be addressing. While men can't read they can be read to, while women are the predominant audience for the more scholarly account someone like Jasnah would produce.

As for Kaladin, I do think he would pull rank if it was for the right reasons, such as ensuring he has the authority to do what he can to protect the town. And I think that wouldn't be, in his mind, showing himself as a fourth dahn lighteyes but as a Radiant. How the town would react to that is a whole other issue, of course.

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