[OB] Oathbringer 4-6

[Toaster Retribution]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

I find Elhokar merely developing his skills, keeping on working with our main crew, learning how to stop being useless is not innovative enough. It is really interesting to have another Kholin bow down to Dalinar? Is it really interesting to have another whiny, "I am not good" character who grows up to develop his natural skills for the greater good? Isn't more interesting to see him grow, yes, but not in the way Dalinar wanted?

I foresee conflict here. I have always wanted to read a Dalinar/Adolin conflicted story arc, but looks like we are getting Dalinar/Elhokar and I feel the outcome would be more interesting if different.

I see your point, and I do like the "antagonistic-Elhokar" route. I think it is really interesting. I just wanted to point out that a "good-Elhokar" story would not, in my opinion, be a bad move. Making him evil isn't the only way to make him interesting.

Elhokar already is average. Keeping on being average, and coming to terms with, would be interesting, and it is a story we don't have in SA. 

[Starla]

The recent discussion of spanreeds has made me ponder the lifts in Urithiru. I assume they also used paired gemstones, like the archer lifts that Navani developed in WOR. They must be super powerful to move multiple people 180 floors. What happens if they run out of stormlight in the weeping? Hopefully there are stairs in the tower, and everyone will be getting plenty of exercise.

Also, from now on I will think of Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" when considering how these paired fabrials work. 

[Elena]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

I agree you with you about "Odium's possessed Elhokar" or "Odium's possessed anyone" unless it is masterfully done and not used as a weak ploy to create antagonists where there are none. I also agree, if Elhokar decides to side with the other side, he will do so willingly, he will do so because he will believe this is the right course of action. I can definitely see Elhokar growing into deciding his uncle's overbearing ways, him being a Radiant, his stance against Vorinism need to be opposed, I can see him choosing to be this man, to finally develop the balls he lacked to stand on his own. People are always thinking more assertive, more courageous and better at leading Elhokar would support Dalinar: I would love to see this assumption being over-thrown. I find it would be more inline with Elhokar's character who likes Dalinar, but does not love him.

I find Elhokar merely developing his skills, keeping on working with our main crew, learning how to stop being useless is not innovative enough. It is really interesting to have another Kholin bow down to Dalinar? Is it really interesting to have another whiny, "I am not good" character who grows up to develop his natural skills for the greater good? Isn't more interesting to see him grow, yes, but not in the way Dalinar wanted?

I foresee conflict here. I have always wanted to read a Dalinar/Adolin conflicted story arc, but looks like we are getting Dalinar/Elhokar and I feel the outcome would be more interesting if different.

First of all much agreement here - I think Elhokar coming into his own probably needs to include some tension/conflict with Dalinar, given the way Dalinar tends to act like the de facto king and not  only isn't called out on it, he actively refuses to acknowledge what he's doing. I think they need to clear that up, Elhokar has to acknowledge that he's left Dalinar take charge of the kingom because it was easier, and Dalinar needs to admit that he's overstepping his role and deal with it one way or the other.

That said. I foresee this conflict having limited impact in the future (except maybe on Elhokar's characterization) because I'm not expecting Dalinar to survive the book. I am reconsidering a bit - now thay he has a growing relationship with the Stormfather it seems more likely he'll stick around a little longer to give us more of that - but as things stand I still think he's going to die. We'll see what the next chapters will bring.

[maxal]

5 minutes ago, Elena said:

First of all much agreement here - I think Elhokar coming into his own probably needs to include some tension/conflict with Dalinar, given the way Dalinar tends to act like the de facto king and not  only isn't called out on it, he actively refuses to acknowledge what he's doing. I think they need to clear that up, Elhokar has to acknowledge that he's left Dalinar take charge of the kingom because it was easier, and Dalinar needs to admit that he's overstepping his role and deal with it one way or the other.

That said. I foresee this conflict having limited impact in the future (except maybe on Elhokar's characterization) because I'm not expecting Dalinar to survive the book. I am reconsidering a bit - now thay he has a growing relationship with the Stormfather it seems more likely he'll stick around a little longer to give us more of that - but as things stand I still think he's going to die. We'll see what the next chapters will bring.

Please check out my brand new Elhokar theory. I posted it within this thread and it can be summarized as follows: How about if Elhokar abdicated and became a Dustbringer? Not was everyone expects, clearly a long shot, but give it try. I think it has potential.

 

[+Wax]

50 minutes ago, maxal said:

How about if Elhokar abdicated and became a Dustbringer?

See, I keep seeing parellals with Mistborn series.

So, Ellend is a regular guy who is protected and then gets some powers.

Elhokar is a central character, who I think will not get powers for philosophical reasons.

Protecting from desolations is a target.  But, who is symbolically being protected? Elhokar is that symbol in the book.  Even Kal notes in WoR that Elhokar is Dalinar's Tien.  No point giving Elhokar powers - because that way - who are the KR protecting?  Themselves?  Coz everyone of them has superpowers.

I think the king has a very different role though.  The champion will be nominated by someone and I think Elhokar will need to endorse it.  My reason is that someone needs to be representing the human side accepting the grand bargain with Odium.  So, think of a larger scale version of King's champion asking for boon of fight with another champion from WoR.  That was rooted in tradition, which I think came from the champion fight for Honor v Odium.

Then there is this bit from WoR

If Kaladin's arrival scared the shadows away, then it doesn't sound like a KR spren like behaviour.

PS only 13 uses of the word champion in WoR.  Most reference the Honor champion, Adolin's championship fight, etc.  Two non-specific ones were Dalinar calling Aladar to be a champion at the shattered plains and the below quote.

Quote

“Elhokar made to leave. He stopped at the door, not looking at Kaladin. “When you came, the shadows went away.”
“The . . . shadows?”

“I saw them in mirrors, in the corners of my eyes. I could swear I even heard them whispering, but you frightened them. I haven’t seen them since. There’s something about you. Don’t try to deny it.” The king looked to him. “I am sorry for what I did to you. I watched you fight to help Adolin, and then I saw you defend Renarin . . . and I grew jealous. There you were, such a champion, so loved. And everyone hates me. I should have gone to fight myself.”

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by axcellence

[djammmer]

On September 5, 2017 at 7:15 AM, ArmbarBanker said:

I respect all oaths, The Stormfather responded.

 

I wonder if this will be used against the "good guys" in some way down the line. Maybe the Oathpact...?

I agree with this 100%.

 

ive always thought that might honor could have this flaw, and the heralds bailed on a promise that wasn't worth keeping.

 

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, djammmer said:

I agree with this 100%.

 

ive always thought that might honor could have this flaw, and the heralds bailed on a promise that wasn't worth keeping.

 

I think it was less about it being worth keeping, and more about them not understanding the promise made. 

Being held to an oath that was beyond their ability to grasp. 

[Nef]

Although immensely satisfying, i feel that Kaladin's punch was ultimately immature and shows how much his character has to grow to be the epitome of an honorable person that I imagine he will be by the end of his development cycle.

I imagine that Kaladin's desire for justice to be served was overwhelming in the moment and his emotions dictated his actions but in the end of the day one of the deadliest warriors on Roshar physically dominated a crippled aging man without direct provocation.

[djammmer]

20 hours ago, axcellence said:

If Kaladin's arrival scared the shadows away, then it doesn't sound like a KR spren like behaviour.

PS only 13 uses of the word champion in WoR.  Most reference the Honor champion, Adolin's championship fight, etc.  Two non-specific ones were Dalinar calling Aladar to be a champion at the shattered plains and the below quote.

Not necessarily.  Patern and Syl are both KR Spren, but the don't like each other, or at least are uncomfortable with each other.  So doesn't necessarily mean the Kings prototype-KR stalkers aren't KR spren.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, djammmer said:

Not necessarily.  Patern and Syl are both KR Spren, but the don't like each other, or at least are uncomfortable with each other.  So doesn't necessarily mean the Kings prototype-KR stalkers aren't KR spren.

We have had quite a bit of Elhokar related discussion lately. Today, something came to my attention. If the sprens trailing Elhokar were KR sprens spying on him with the firm intention to bond him, then it means Elhokar has the beginning of a Nahel Bond. Many readers have gone into this assumption. We even have this one WoB where Brandon was asked if Elhokar could see Kaladin's glowing or his surgebinding during the 4 on 1 duel (I forgot the exact words) which was answered by RAFO.

The problem is, by chapter 6 we are able to see one interesting sign: Elhokar is not healing. All proto-knights, even the most novice ones, even those not having uttered the first oath healed faster and better due to unconscious stormlight intake. Dalinar powered through decades of injuries because he has been drawing in stormlight for years despite not being aware of it. Therefore, if Elhokar had somehow a working Nahel Bond, even a new feeble one, then he would have healed faster whereas the text at hand tells us he is healing slowly. 

I personally take it as a firm sign of Elhokar not currently being a proto-knight. The Cryptics were spying on him, but not because they wanted to bond him.

[Farnsworth]

I have studied MMA for seven years now, and I have to say that the punch scene annoyed me a bit. It wasn't a very good punch.

Quote

Thumb outside of his fist, he connected with the first two knuckles of his hand across Roshone’s cheekbone, then followed through to slide across the front of the face.

Thumb on the outside is nothing special. The trick is to make it go over your first two fingers, and that is pretty easy to get the hang of. I feel like somebody as good as Kaladin would be so accustomed to that he wouldn't mention it. His first two knuckles hitting first is great, but again, not really special if it's a hook punch. You definitely don't want it sliding across the front of his face. That means you missed. The idea is to punch them right around the ear so that it hits them full on in the side of the head. Having your hand slide like that is the mark of a really bad punch. It doesn't mean Kal is a bad fighter to throw a punch like this once in a while, but it certainly isn't great enough to talk about.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Farnsworth

[+Wax]

I think despite BS's and @Farnsworth's efforts - for some of us, the only way we'll know it was a good punch or not is by waking up 1-2 days later 

[djammmer]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

The problem is, by chapter 6 we are able to see one interesting sign: Elhokar is not healing. All proto-knights, even the most novice ones, even those not having uttered the first oath healed faster and better due to unconscious stormlight intake. Dalinar powered through decades of injuries because he has been drawing in stormlight for years despite not being aware of it. Therefore, if Elhokar had somehow a working Nahel Bond, even a new feeble one, then he would have healed faster whereas the text at hand tells us he is healing slowly. 

Yes, but healing in the cosmos seems to to be tricky, or nuanced.  For example, Kalida's shash brand.  If for some reason someone thinks they should not be healed, or somehow their identity is associated with an injury, then it will not be healed.  I'd suggest this is at least partially the case - that elokar at least partially subconciously has a victim mentality around assassination attempts.  And so it's possible he may not subconciously  auto heal.

I'm not claiming it 100% true.  But it's a probably, and because of that I can't use his lack of healing as evidence that he is not proto radiant.

Edited September 11, 2017 by djammmer

[djammmer]

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think it was less about it being worth keeping, and more about them not understanding the promise made. 

Being held to an oath that was beyond their ability to grasp. 

I'm hypothesizing that perhaps the shard honor has a character flaw.  That he'd rather honor an imperfect oath, than break an oath when it is morally better than keeping it.  I don't know if honor is a case of good vs. evil, as much as it is keeping a commitment/oath... I.e. Integrity.

[maxal]

5 minutes ago, djammmer said:

Yes, but healing in the cosmos seems to to be tricky, or nuanced.  For example, Kalida's shash brand.  If for some reason someone thinks they should not be healed, or somehow their identity is associated with an injury, then it will not be healed.  I'd suggest this is at least partially the case - that elokar at least partially subconciously has a victim mentality around assassination attempts.  And so it's possible he may not subconciously  auto heal.

I'm not claiming it 100% true.  But it's a probably, and because of that I can't use his lack of healing as evidence that he is not proto radiant.

I find it doubtful Elhokar's wound would a part of his identity in ways which would prevent unconscious healing were he a proto-Radiant. I am also doubtful stormlight wouldn't heal a mortal wound on a proto-knight nor do I think it is possible for such a wound to become "part of the identity of anyone". 

Of course, it isn't entirely false-proof, but I do think it is a pretty good clue to look at, for now.

[djammmer]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

I find it doubtful Elhokar's wound would a part of his identity in ways which would prevent unconscious healing were he a proto-Radiant. I am also doubtful stormlight wouldn't heal a mortal wound on a proto-knight nor do I think it is possible for such a wound to become "part of the identity of anyone". 

Of course, it isn't entirely false-proof, but I do think it is a pretty good clue to look at, for now.

Yeah, seems like a good place for a friendly wager.  You seem 99%+ convinced he cannot become a radiant . I think there is still a good chance he can and will become one.  I think the shard stalking, as well as the fact that KRs seem to run in the family, and our attackted to broken people outweigh the justification that he hasn't healed super quickly.  I totally honor (ha) that you have a different opinion than me... That's why I think it would be fun to have a friendly wager... I.e the winner gets to pick what the other names one of their children.  (Thinks in my head... "What's a short cute nick name for a baby named Adolin? Al-D?")

 

[maxal]

Just now, djammmer said:

Yeah, seems like a good place for a friendly wager.  You seem 99%+ convinced he cannot become a radiant . I think there is still a good chance he can and will become one.  I think the shard stalking, as well as the fact that KRs seem to run in the family, and our attackted to broken people outweigh the justification that he hasn't healed super quickly.  I totally honor (ha) that you have a different opinion than me... That's why I think it would be fun to have a friendly wager... I.e the winner gets to pick what the other names one of their children.  (Thinks in my head... "What's a short cute nick name for a baby named Adolin? Al-D?")

 

Oh no, you haven't read my latest theory now have you?  It does involve Elhokar becoming a Radiant, but not in the way others have foreseen. What I am convinced about is he currently isn't a proto-knight nor that the Cryptics he saw had for purpose to bond him. The fact his wounds aren't healing any faster than normal wounds heal does give some credence to those claims. 

I however agree sprens are running strong within the family: this was confirmed by WoB. I merely do not think Elhokar has progressed within the right direction to be a Radiant, at the moment.

Friendly wager? Pick a name each other children? Problem is I already have mine: they both have cute names already and none of them are named Adolin  Though I'll admit I once called my son "Adolin"  I was being distracted  If I win, I'll you name yours Kaladin 

[Calderis]

48 minutes ago, djammmer said:

I'm hypothesizing that perhaps the shard honor has a character flaw.  That he'd rather honor an imperfect oath, than break an oath when it is morally better than keeping it.  I don't know if honor is a case of good vs. evil, as much as it is keeping a commitment/oath... I.e. Integrity.

None of the Shards are good or evil. There is no more morality involved in the Shard of Honor than there is in Odium. 

Assuming Good or evil for any shard is a false projection. 

Honor is nothing but the need to follow a chosen code. The morality of that code is irrelevant 

[djammmer]

9 minutes ago, maxal said:

Oh no, you haven't read my latest theory now have you?  It does involve Elhokar becoming a Radiant, but not in the way others have foreseen. What I am convinced about is he currently isn't a proto-knight nor that the Cryptics he saw had for purpose to bond him. The fact his wounds aren't healing any faster than normal wounds heal does give some credence to those claims. 

I however agree sprens are running strong within the family: this was confirmed by WoB. I merely do not think Elhokar has progressed within the right direction to be a Radiant, at the moment.

Friendly wager? Pick a name each other children? Problem is I already have mine: they both have cute names already and none of them are named Adolin  Though I'll admit I once called my son "Adolin"  I was being distracted  If I win, I'll you name yours Kaladin 

Ok.. Kalidin.

but what is you winning?  Elokar becomes a dustbringer?  

Edited September 11, 2017 by djammmer

[maxal]

4 minutes ago, djammmer said:

Ok.. Kalidin.

but what is you winning?  Elokar becomes a dustbringer?  

Elhokar doesn't become a Lightweaver via the Cryptics he has seen in the mirror? The Dustbringer theory is nice and I rather like it, but I am not convince it's got a strong chance of making it to the main narrative.

[djammmer]

30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

None of the Shards are good or evil. There is no more morality involved in the Shard of Honor than there is in Odium. 

Assuming Good or evil for any shard is a false projection. 

Honor is nothing but the need to follow a chosen code. The morality of that code is irrelevant 

Agreed.  So no morality in keeping or abandoning the oathpact.  And the the heralds could have been making a morally good decision when they abandoned the oathpact.

[+Wax]

9 hours ago, djammmer said:

Not necessarily.  Patern and Syl are both KR Spren, but the don't like each other, or at least are uncomfortable with each other.  

They are uncomfortable with each other, but they don't exactly disappear.

Elhokar's wording suggest that the shadows were permanently gone or at least had taken an extended leave.

Pattern doesn't disappear just because Syl happens to be nearby and vice verca.

[djammmer]

50 minutes ago, axcellence said:

They are uncomfortable with each other, but they don't exactly disappear.

Elhokar's wording suggest that the shadows were permanently gone or at least had taken an extended leave.

Pattern doesn't disappear just because Syl happens to be nearby and vice verca.

I got the impression Pattern disappeared (or hid) anytime anyone but Shallan was around.  I need to go reread.

[+Wax]

1 hour ago, djammmer said:

I got the impression Pattern disappeared (or hid) anytime anyone but Shallan was around.  I need to go reread.

Not true.  When he initially appeared in WoR, he appeared when Jasnah was around.

Even Syl notices him during the Adolin duel.  Pattern is also around Kal during the Chasm scenes, it so happens that Syl is not there.

So, they don't interact, but that's about it.

 

[Darkness]

7 hours ago, Farnsworth said:

I have studied MMA for seven years now, and I have to say that the punch scene annoyed me a bit. It wasn't a very good punch.

Thumb on the outside is nothing special. The trick is to make it go over your first two fingers, and that is pretty easy to get the hang of. I feel like somebody as good as Kaladin would be so accustomed to that he wouldn't mention it. His first two knuckles hitting first is great, but again, not really special if it's a hook punch. You definitely don't want it sliding across the front of his face. That means you missed. The idea is to punch them right around the ear so that it hits them full on in the side of the head. Having your hand slide like that is the mark of a really bad punch. It doesn't mean Kal is a bad fighter to throw a punch like this once in a while, but it certainly isn't great enough to talk about.

In all seriousness, this is the kind of subtle detail that team Sanderson might appreciate an email about from you. It adds to the realism with some very minor adjustment.

In tin foil hat land, Alethi simply have different physiology from Earthlings, in such a way that it makes the finger slide become the ultimate strike in hand-to-hand combat