[OB] Oathbringer 4-6

[Ansalem]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

I believe that's basically how most Worldhopping is meant to be done in the Cosmere, no? Traveling in the Cognitive Realm from and to the Physical Realm via Shardpool singularities?

Yeah as far as I understand it, I just never thought much about the implications I guess. I have a lot of little tidbits of information about the CR but I never really put them together.

@Calderis I have read Secret History but I think I need to read it again. I've forgotten most of the CR information from it. You've given me a lot to think about.

[JoyBlu]

I have read every post in this thread now.  An entire 18 pages.  It was a time-sucker for sure, but I learned so much from so many of you. Thank you all for taking the time to post your ideas.  I want to specifically thank those that *Spoiled* or *Hid Contents* for the Thrill.  I haven't read those chapters yet and was shocked to see Shshshshsh's name on this thread without being spoiled.  But I suppose that is a risk I took getting online.  If you haven't already done so, please go back and edit your Shshshshsh posts in this thread to be *Hidden* so others can choose to see her name or not.

Many of my reactions to posts have already been explained or echoed by others so I won't repeat them.  I ran out of upvotes during my 3 day read of this thread, but if I really liked what you said I may drop you a message if I have time.

Here are a few points that either I want to be on the record for agreeing with, that I wanted to clarify, an perspective to share, or questions that I still have.  (I have read all of the cosmere now, but probably not in the right order -- My first experience with Edgedancer was at a book signing where Brandon read parts of it.  I hadn't even finished part one of WoK yet.  Obviously I didn't understand the implications of Lift's story and how it connected to Stormlight when I heard it.  So some of my questions may be naive)  I multi-quoted on my phone, but I'm typing this on my computer now and they didn't carry over so I apologize in advance for not using direct quotes. If you want me to add your quote to this afterwards send me a message and I can edit it in later.

• Navani's Red Wedding Dress -- thanks to everyone who explained that a red wedding dress was traditional for some cultures. I was more concerned about how her dress was the same color as the "evil" storm.  Red Lighting.  Red for Luck.  Red Eyes.  If the storm was orange and her dress was orange, it would have told me that her marriage is going to be stormy.  My take away from Navani's red dress and the red storm that was going on during their ceremony was an indication that their marriage was going to be a stormy marriage and that only a bit of luck with get them through. Its a great use of literary allusion.
• Shallan  I think that she is studying and reflecting and exhausted.  Maybe a bit in shock still. Maybe hiding out and while she is quiet around others -- still talking to Pattern quiet a bit off screen.  Navigating her relationship with Adolin.  I like who ever said she was tired from operating the oathgates. And as for Dalinar not noticing her much -- he was getting married!  His mind was on other things.  He was anxious that the Stormfather would show up and I bet was looking forward to Husband/Wife time.
• Moash & Sadeus  I am seeing a parallel between the relationship between Dalinar & Sadeus and Kaladin & Moash.  They both consider the other a friend, even though they were both betrayed by them.  Dalinar & Kaladin both value friendship.  I think that just as the idea of murdering Sadeus was an impossible idea for Dalinar, it will be for Kaladin as well.  They know the good traits of their friends and even betrayal doesn't blind them to the good that they still perceive in them.
• Kaladin  The more I re-read these chapters the more I am struck by the name of chapter 6.  Four Lifetimes.  These are the 4 lifetimes that he has had since he left home. He doesn't even mention his lifetime as a child or a surgeon's apprentice.  These lifetimes will all converge as he tells his parents his story.  (Which I hope I get to hear how Kaladin describes/sums up his experience to him).  I am in the "please don't pull out your shardblade now" camp. Kaladin has always disdained others when they pulled rank on him.  Just because Kaladin has rank now, he is not going to use it. That is not who he is.  He is not a bully.  He is a protector.  Now as for Kaladin's slave brands.  I can't help but draw a parallel to Jesus Christ in the Christianity religion on this topic.  Christians believe that when Christ was resurrected that his body was made perfect/whole/healed.  However, he still retained the spear mark on his side and the wound marks on his hands.  Christ had the power to heal those wounds but chose not to because it *proved* who he was.  I'm not so sure that Kaladin's slave brands are going to heal. If they did -- it would make his story less memorable to those who would meet him in the future.
• The Letter 

  Quote

  “Oh, Kaladin,” Hesina said, kneeling down beside him and pulling him into an embrace. “We got your letter, but over a year ago they told us you had died as well.”

  Does anyone have a quote as to where I can find this letter.  I have some vague memory of it but can't seem to find it.  Do we know what it said?  I think I remember Kaladin paying someone to write and send it.  I have another memory of Tarah sending letters for Kaladin but I can't find that either.  I don't think that Kaladin had met Tarah when Tein had died but I don't think we know yet exactly when they met yet either. <time for my tin foil hat> What if Tarah remembered where Kaladin had lived and came to visit his parents? What if Tarah was the person occupying the space in his house? That would be fun.  I am looking forward to hearing more about their love story. I hope it is in this book so I don't have to wait till book four! /<tin foil>

• Shshshshsh and the Curse/Boon.  I think that the Thrill is also connected somehow to the Curse/Boon. I hope we find out soon.  I love to hear other peoples ideas on this.

• Single Glass Pane  So Awesome! again -- loved reading all the theories on that.

 

I'm out of time for now.  I still have more thoughts and a question or two.  I'll try to get them posted later while they are still somewhat relevant.

 

 

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

Hey, he's written this book paced for reading as a novel. It's on you (meaning, "us"), not him, for reading these narrow bandwidth, time released dribs and drabs of preview passages over three months! If you can't deal with it, just wait until November 14th. (I didn't think so. Otherwise why are you here in this thread?)

 

I can't deal with waiting until novemeber 14 to start reading, and I can't deal with having kaladin's cliffhanger last until novemeber 14. I am sure I'm not the only one.

2 hours ago, Pattern said:

Spanreeds transmit the movement of writing, being accellerated in the process and gaining own velocities. The problem of the rotating planet I see is not the spanreeds keeping the same distance to each other but that the velocities differ greatly due to that rotation. Easiest situation is sitting on the equator with one spanreed and the second spanreed is also on the equator but on the other side of the world. Then both spanreeds move with opposite velocities to each other - viewed from an "inert frame of reference", say one resting with regard to the Roshar star. The spanreed on the receiving end would be catapulted away quite spectacularly.

Spanreeds must have a mechanism to compensate for accellerated frames of reference.

Thinking about it for a while and going a bit realmatic, perhaps it is enough on Roshar that the spanreeds are percieved/thought to be resting

I see, you are using a normal cartesian reference system. However, if you instead use a polar coordinate system centered on the planet, spanreeds work fine without needing any realmatic fix.

Makes me wonder what would they do on a spaceship.

10 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

• Moash & Sadeus  I am seeing a parallel between the relationship between Dalinar & Sadeus and Kaladin & Moash.  They both consider the other a friend, even though they were both betrayed by them.  Dalinar & Kaladin both value friendship.  I think that just as the idea of murdering Sadeus was an impossible idea for Dalinar, it will be for Kaladin as well.  They know the good traits of their friends and even betrayal doesn't blind them to the good that they still perceive in them.

 

It would be good closure if it will be adolin to kill moash too. Maybe while saying "must I really deal with all the lloose ties by myself??"

[JoyBlu]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

It would be good closure if it will be adolin to kill moash too. Maybe while saying "must I really deal with all the lloose ties by myself??"

Indeed!  Now that would be an interesting parallel if that happened. Adolin the Assassin!

[WhiteLeeopard]

35 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

Navani's Red Wedding Dress -- thanks to everyone who explained that a red wedding dress was traditional for some cultures. I was more concerned about how her dress was the same color as the "evil" storm.  Red Lighting.  Red for Luck.  Red Eyes.  If the storm was orange and her dress was orange, it would have told me that her marriage is going to be stormy.  My take away from Navani's red dress and the red storm that was going on during their ceremony was an indication that their marriage was going to be a stormy marriage and that only a bit of luck with get them through. Its a great use of literary allusion.

Brilliant idea. Or another alternative is a reminder of how absolutely prevalent Odium is in alethi culture. Those who should have been closer to Honor are the ones further from him. Opposite the parshendi, who should have been furthest from Honor, but are the ones to carry him most in their culture and traditions. 

35 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

I don't think that Kaladin had met Tarah when Tein had died but I don't think we know yet exactly when they met yet either

If I remember right, Tien died, and Kaladin ran himself ragged, until he met Tarah who forced him to rest as he was going to kill himself at that rate.

20 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I can't deal with waiting until novemeber 14 to start reading, and I can't deal with having kaladin's cliffhanger last until novemeber 14. I am sure I'm not the only one.

Aw, nice to hear I'm not the only one to sound like a junkie when it comes to books. I need my fix! Most people don't understand or think I'm exagerating .

20 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

It would be good closure if it will be adolin to kill moash too. Maybe while saying "must I really deal with all the lloose ties by myself??"

Read my mind. Adolin the Problem Fixer. Who does what everyone else balks at doing, even when it means their dooms. But I don't think he would do that, unless Moash had either killed someone close to him (not necesarily family, his men count too), or if he intended to. I guess if he keeps obsessed with Elhokar that works.

Edited September 8, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Azul]

2 hours ago, Ansalem said:

What if the spanreeds work through the Cognitive Realm and the Cognitive Realm doesn't move as the planet does? It would still make sense that you can't use them while moving on a ship since moving along Roshar has an equivalent motion through the CR, but the CR itself doesn't necessarily need to be attached to the motion of the planet in that sense. In other words, is the CR version of Roshar like a shadow planet that moves in the same way as the physical planet or is it merely a representation that is fixed in CR space? Does it rotate and orbit a CR sun? The brief visuals we've had of Shadesmar would suggest to me that it doesn't, because the clouds are always pointed at the sun which tells me that the sun is in a fixed spot in the sky. Though since our viewings so far have been brief, it could simply be that the clouds move to keep track of the sun. But I also wonder if Shadesmar is even spherical, since the sun always seems to be visible.

It may be a bit of a stretch since I just now thought it up, but worth considering I think.

I agree that spanreeds work through the cognitive realm but I've always pictured the cognitive as a mirror.  Planetary movement would not affect spanreeds because of relative movement.  Both are moving through space at the same speed at the same time.  We have been told spanreeds won't work on a ship but not if that means they won't activate or not.  Its possible you could activate it but the reed would lock in place while the ship would continue moving, thus making it impossible to function properly.  If so you could in theory make them work, if you had them both on ships moving at the exact same speed in the exact same direction.  Highly unlikely with the current technology but theoretically possible.

[Ansalem]

6 minutes ago, Azul said:

I agree that spanreeds work through the cognitive realm but I've always pictured the cognitive as a mirror.  Planetary movement would not affect spanreeds because of relative movement.  Both are moving through space at the same speed at the same time.  We have been told spanreeds won't work on a ship but not if that means they won't activate or not.  Its possible you could activate it but the reed would lock in place while the ship would continue moving, thus making it impossible to function properly.  If so you could in theory make them work, if you had them both on ships moving at the exact same speed in the exact same direction.  Highly unlikely with the current technology but theoretically possible.

I was addressing @Pattern's point that different points on a planet are moving at different speeds and directions relative to a fixed position in space. If one is on the equator and another is on a pole, the one at the equator is moving significantly faster than the one at the pole regardless of whether they're sitting still relative to the planet. Pattern made the example of two on opposite sides of the planet at the equator, which would mean they're moving in opposite directions from one another (if you look at a spinning ball from above, if the top part is going left the bottom part is going right). So a moving ship shouldn't make any difference, the speed of a ship is inconsequential compared to the speed of planetary rotation, and yet the movement of a ship does seem to matter. This problem wouldn't be solved through the Cognitive Realm if the CR version of Roshar acts the same as the physical version. You're just moving the same problem to another location that way.

In short, relative movement is actually the problem not the solution.

[Pattern]

56 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I see, you are using a normal cartesian reference system. However, if you instead use a polar coordinate system centered on the planet, spanreeds work fine without needing any realmatic fix.

The polar coordinate system on a rotating planet is an accellerated one, so virtual forces are at work. And how to tell the spanreeds which system to choose?

Edit:

Also, if you are at the equator and the recieving end is, say 60° north, a given change in azimutal angle will result in a much shorter line at the recieving end, transmissions would be funnily distorted...
To fix those distortions, the spren in the spanreeds would have to do some advanced math.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Pattern

[frozndevl]

Just now, Pattern said:

The polar coordinate system on a rotating planet is an accellerated one, so virtual forces are at work. And how to tell the spanreeds which system to choose?

I would say that going with the 2D cognitive realm interpretation would work best since Spren are Cognitive beings. However, if I am remembering right, the Spanreed needs to be placed in a special spot (or corner) before it writes what the other side sends. That to me implies that any sort of movement, even as little as slowly carrying the table carrying it across the room, will interrupt its functioning. It could also be that the two halves of the spanreed "know" their relative position to one another, so it doesn't matter if it's curved or flat and the way the reason that they end up "writing" the correct way is they have a common alignment with gravity of the planet so they know how they would align. I would wager that a a pair of spanreed tables (since they need a surface to write on) are oriented in the same cardinal direction since when one draws a line, it would need to have corresponding space / paper to write on the receiving end

[Azul]

7 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

I was addressing @Pattern's point that different points on a planet are moving at different speeds and directions relative to a fixed position in space. If one is on the equator and another is on a pole, the one at the equator is moving significantly faster than the one at the pole regardless of whether they're sitting still relative to the planet. Pattern made the example of two on opposite sides of the planet at the equator, which would mean they're moving in opposite directions from one another (if you look at a spinning ball from above, if the top part is going left the bottom part is going right). So a moving ship shouldn't make any difference, the speed of a ship is inconsequential compared to the speed of planetary rotation, and yet the movement of a ship does seem to matter. This problem wouldn't be solved through the Cognitive Realm if the CR version of Roshar acts the same as the physical version. You're just moving the same problem to another location that way.

In short, relative movement is actually the problem not the solution.

location on the planet shouldn't matter since their relative positions to each other would never change.

[Ansalem]

2 minutes ago, Azul said:

location on the planet shouldn't matter since their relative positions to each other would never change.

Right but I guess what I'm saying is, how does the spanreed know which frame of reference to use? My answer was that the CR version of Roshar doesn't act like a planet in space and so there is only one possible frame of reference in Shadesmar. Shadesmar doesn't move relative to anything.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Ansalem

[Yata]

The Spanreed's problem is lesser or fixed at all with Roshar as all the knowed world is a single pangea like continent and therefore every point is relative near to another one

[Pattern]

16 minutes ago, Yata said:

The Spanreed's problem is lesser or fixed at all with Roshar as all the knowed world is a single pangea like continent and therefore every point is relative near to another one

We are still lacking the scale of Roshar (the continent). Since Highstorms are not periodical and lose speed over land, we have to await the passing of the Everstorm, assuming it moves with constant speed. Then we can determine how big the continent is compared to the planet: Compare the time moving over the ocean from New Natanatan-Shinovar to the time it takes to move over the continent. (Of course that is only possible if the Everstorm turns out to appear periodical, and something tells me the focus concerning the Everstorm will not be on the exact timing...)

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Pattern

[Azul]

@Ansalem I think i see what you are saying.  The problem comes from trying to apply mechanics in the physical plane to the cognitive.  From my understanding the CR is more like a flat map, with only the parts people really think about appearing on it.  With spanreeds I feel the link is made cognitively but their movement in the cognitive isn't that important.  Not sure if you have read Kingkiller by Rothfuss but how some sympathy works in that feels the same here.  I believe these two things are actually the same thing so when I move one the other moves as well.

[Pattern]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

I believe that's basically how most Worldhopping is meant to be done in the Cosmere, no? Traveling in the Cognitive Realm from and to the Physical Realm via Shardpool singularities?

Well, you go to the CR, walk to the end of the planet in the CR, then hop over the gap in the CR to the next planet (that was my idea of worldhopping when I read about it the first time, quite long ago now)

9 minutes ago, Azul said:

Not sure if you have read Kingkiller by Rothfuss but how some sympathy works in that feels the same here.  I believe these two things are actually the same thing so when I move one the other moves as well.

I am thinking more of something like quantum entanglement - magically stabilized and enhanced.

Oh, another thing...

I feel like we are highjacking the thread with theorizing about spanreeds. Perhaps a mod could move our contributions about spanreeds to another thread?

Edited September 8, 2017 by Pattern

[Azul]

4 minutes ago, Pattern said:

I am thinking more of something like quantum entanglement - magically stabilized and enhanced.

From my very limited understanding of quantum entanglement that is pretty much the same thing isn't it ?  Like the Ansible in Ender's Game.

[king of nowhere]

38 minutes ago, Pattern said:

The polar coordinate system on a rotating planet is an accellerated one, so virtual forces are at work. And how to tell the spanreeds which system to choose?

Edit:

Also, if you are at the equator and the recieving end is, say 60° north, a given change in azimutal angle will result in a much shorter line at the recieving end, transmissions would be funnily distorted...
To fix those distortions, the spren in the spanreeds would have to do some advanced math.

damnation, you're right. I was thinking on the lines of "move by a hundredth of a millionth off a turn around the planet westward", but that would mean a different line length at different latitudes.

This only leaves one other possible interpretation if we don't want to call realmatics into it: the spanreeds use the center of the planet as a reference system. in that reference system, a spanreed at the equator and one at the pole are both stationary. Yes, it is an accelerated reference system, but why should that be a problem?

In that frame of reference, motion would always be motion relative to the center of the planet. Consider, in fact, two writers standing at the equator at opposite sides of the planet

1 | (planet) | 2

If the spanreed moves in a cartesian rreference system, then when writer 1 lifts his spanreed (i.e. moves it towards the left in this page) then the spanreed of 2 would also move towards the left, burying itself into the page. It can onluy work if the movement is relative to the planet, i.e. when writer 1 moves his spanreed away from the planet, spanreed 2 moves away from the planet too.

6 minutes ago, Pattern said:

We are still lacking the scale of Roshar (the continent). Since Highstorms are not periodical and lose speed over land, we have to await the passing of the Everstorm, assuming it moves with constant speed. Then we can determine how big the continent is compared to the planet: Compare the time moving over the ocean from New Natanatan-Shinovar to the time it takes to move over the continent. (Of course that is only possible if the Everstorm turns out to appear periodical, and something tells me the focus concerning the Everstorm will not be on the exact timing...)

 

The first scholars to calculate the size of earth were ancient greeks, they had only traveled a small part of it, and they did it making calculations of sun's height over the horizon using the lenght of shadows. They got a surprisingly accurate result. So, I expect rosharan scholars know the size of their planet pretty well already, they do not need the everstorm.

[Pattern]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

They got a surprisingly accurate result. So, I expect rosharan scholars know the size of their planet pretty well already, they do not need the everstorm.

I am not talking about them, I am talking about us.

Unfortunately I am not able to worldhop to Roshar to make the measurements myself.

[Nathrangking]

When it comes to Elokhar I neither love him nor hate him. In fact even though he is only a minor character I feel as though I should genuinely care about him. The fact is I am apathetic towards him. I think that his demand for respect really killed any glimmer of feeling post the assassination attempt. He is stuck in a rut of his own creation which he makes no attempt to change. Instead of taking the fact that he is the king and as was pointed out possibly a capable duelist and channeling what little he has towards something constructive he whines about how he is not respected and how Dalinar is usurping his power. He is an overgrown manchild who seems incapable of doing anything about the situation that he and Alethkar find themselves in. It was pointed out that he could have been a diplomat, a duelist, an administrator or anything that he wanted really, but he did none of those things. Instead he uses his title as an excuse to demand that which he has done nothing to earn he has almost literally no redeeming qualities. I would not be surprised if he only let the darkeyes into the arena in a vain attempt to win them over. To me he is all about personal vanity and childish demands. Redemption in my eyes will not come easily. Become a squire to Kaladin pull yourself up and maybe just maybe redemption is possible.

[maxal]

16 hours ago, Darkness said:

Upvoted this is the first time i remember seeing you do a decently sized post without mentioning Adolin even once haha.

Ah come on, I have written great many posts which didn't revolve around Adolin's character nor mentioned his name, some of them had decent sizes too  While it is true I love Adolin and if the discussion is about him, chances are I will pop in, but he hasn't been my only topic of discussion but hey thanks for liking the post 

16 hours ago, Darkness said:

I dont think the only options for his story are bow to Dalinar or oppose him. We've seen what happens when Elhokar and Dalinar butt heads, and I'm sure Elhokar will keep that in mind. I cant see him just rolling over and giving the throne to Dalinar (nor do I think Dalinar wants that), but he is certainly cowed by his uncle (step-father?) to a large degree.

I think Dalinar will realize what his politicking is doing to the throne and, once the moment is ripe, set himself up in Urithiru, abdicate to Adolin, and remain in an advisory role to Elhokar. Navani would probably also set up some kind of scholarly cadre in Urithiru to research magical means of withstanding a desolation. Big ties between Alethkar and the city-state of Urithiru, but I think Dalinar will eventually ease himself out of his power spot in order to give Elhokar's kingship actual legitimacy. Depending on Elhokar's personal character progression, he might even be trusted enough to do it before the desolation ends.

The major issue with Elhokar's character is how is he even relevant to the story as his own character. What might he do which would be original, nor redundant with other character arcs, interesting and befitting the fact he just isn't, until further notice, a main protagonist? What is his purpose? Why is he within the story? None of is entirely clear, at the moment. I am among those who feel watching Elhokar grow into a capable leader while becoming a Radiant clashes too heavily with Renarin's story arcs. I don't see the need for it: it doesn't stand out on its own enough, not within the canvas we have been given.

My thoughts have always been Elhokar's purpose was to highlight one specific weakness within Dalinar's character, so we'll see about that within OB. If I am right, then antagonist seems the most interesting path. We are running short on those as they keep on redeeming themselves, so to see Elhokar take an opposite stance from Dalinar might be interesting. By opposite, I do not mean "evil", just not wanting to follow, even if I am all for Odium possessed Elhokar.

Bottom line is, as a character, I have always struggled to find him a purpose. I may even go as far as to say he could be removed from the story and it wouldn't be changed much from what we currently have. This never is a good position to be for a character, though in retrospective, he had to exist for Kaladin's downfall to happen.

I am also one of those readers who do not get the Highprince vibe from Adolin. I also really, really, really do not want him to become the next Highprince. Adolin's character is SO MUCH more interesting if he loses his heirloom as a consequence for murdering Sadeas, but YMMV.

8 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I agree abdication is sounding better the more we go on. Technically Adolin is already in charge of the armies, and Dalinar would likely continue using his clout as having the Kholin princedom behind him in politics. Basically would be usurping some of Adolin's authority instead of Elhokar's. But Adolin will mind a lot less than Elhokar, and he has no wish to deal with the political side of highprince in any case. Or could just be one more reason to send Adolin to deal with Kholinar as highprince, while his father stays in Urithuru so the power usurping is not that obvious. 

Except it does not allow for Adolin any downfall: it basically positions him exactly where we were told he would end up on page one of WoK. It turns what has been an interesting character potentially going onto a different arc into.. a static character. I am really against Adolin as the next Highprince. I do not find it an interesting story arc. 

To all, on Kaladin not having anymore PoV within Part 1: COME ON. Of course he does. Part 1 has 32 chapters, it won't be 26 more chapters of JUST Dalinar.

Edited September 8, 2017 by maxal

[Hero-of-Pages]

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

To all, on Kaladin not having anymore PoV within Part 1: COME ON. Of course he does. Part 1 has 32 chapters, it won't be 26 more chapters of JUST Dalinar.

To be fair, both Shallan and Adolin are both viewpoint characters, and flashbacks are their own thing, so it would be shared among the four of them.

 

Nonetheless I agree with you. Brandon wouldn't leave his readers with that sort of "cliffhanger" for 26 or more chapters, especially this early in the book. Furthermore all the other viewpoint characters are in Urithiru and all should be interacting on a relatively consistent basis. I think it would be a really weird move for Brandon to not give us more Kaladin chapters in part 1.

[Walker]

Why wouldn't the reference frame of the two span reeds be the span reeds themselves?  One span reed is the fixed origin with an orientation representing up/forward.  The position and orientation of the other span reed is in relation to this origin.  Uniform translations to them both have no effect on the frame. 

This is the standard reference frame for pairing objects in computer graphics/simulations.

[Siaun Sanche]

17 hours ago, Darkness said:

I dont think the only options for his story are bow to Dalinar or oppose him. We've seen what happens when Elhokar and Dalinar butt heads, and I'm sure Elhokar will keep that in mind. I cant see him just rolling over and giving the throne to Dalinar (nor do I think Dalinar wants that), but he is certainly cowed by his uncle (step-father?) to a large degree.

I want to jump on that thought for a second, because I think it gets at the heart of the issue between Dalinar and Elhokar. Dalinar doesn't want to take Elhokar's throne, I agree. What he does seem to want is to exercise all the powers of the king without bothering to hide that he's the real authority. It's not that he wants to be the power behind the throne--that was Sadeas. These days Dalinar seems to want to be the power in front of the throne. And sometimes he feels guilty about this but he keeps doing it because ultimately it's still what he wants. Dalinar's character growth over the course of the series to date has come at Elhokar's expense to a fair degree, but he hasn't really had to confront that this is true. To some degree he's been able to have his cake and eat it too.

Dalinar has a lot of good reasons for behaving this way, and I don't mean to imply that he's a bad guy--but this is a tension that I feel like the story should address.

And it's true that Elhokar's been pretty cowed, but repeated humiliation (which is what he confesses to Kaladin) can create some powerful resentments so there's no reason to think that he can't find his courage. And he wouldn't necessarily be alone in opposing Dalinar either, since there are a number of highprinces that haven't become Kholin loyalists yet.

18 hours ago, Elena said:

In my experience, the best stories end up being those that are character-driven within given plot constrains, instead of plot-driven with the characters just along for the ride, and Stormlight is definitely a character-centred story. Elhokar's arc will be about himself just as much as it will be about needing to serve plot reasons or furthering someone's plot.

Okay, fair enough. When I read books I predominantly read for character and theme and in some cases narrative voice, and less the sort of plot structure stuff that I've been talking about here. I often am surprised in books by very obvious mysteries and twists because I'm not looking for them. It's only when I'm on a message board developing theories about where a story might go that I start to think about how the plot is structured.

[Toaster Retribution]

Odium possessed Elhokar... no thanks. If Elhokar goes evil/becomes an antagonist, it should be because of Dalinars mistakes, and his general situation, not because of random possession. That has rarely been an interesting storyline. The most interesting villains are the ones you feel symphaty for, and the ones who acts for understandable reasons. Elhokar is a character who could be such a character. Making him Odium-possessed would be a waste of time. 

Furthermore, I disagree with @maxal. Elhokars "becoming a better king" arc wouldn't be the same as Renarins arc. Especially if Elhokar doesn't become a Radiant. Learning to be king, confronting his mistakes, and finally overcoming the fact that he is the average joe, would be a good arc for Elhokar. He could be in charge of holding stuff together at home while the Radiants are out killing things. And this would allow Elhokar to show character growth by seeing everyone but him becoming KR, but deciding not to whine and instead focus on improving and cultivating the skills he already has. Having Elhokar finally deciding that he can be himself, and be good because of it, instead of wishing that he was someone else would be a good arc.

[maxal]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Odium possessed Elhokar... no thanks. If Elhokar goes evil/becomes an antagonist, it should be because of Dalinars mistakes, and his general situation, not because of random possession. That has rarely been an interesting storyline. The most interesting villains are the ones you feel symphaty for, and the ones who acts for understandable reasons. Elhokar is a character who could be such a character. Making him Odium-possessed would be a waste of time. 

Furthermore, I disagree with @maxal. Elhokars "becoming a better king" arc wouldn't be the same as Renarins arc. Especially if Elhokar doesn't become a Radiant. Learning to be king, confronting his mistakes, and finally overcoming the fact that he is the average joe, would be a good arc for Elhokar. He could be in charge of holding stuff together at home while the Radiants are out killing things. And this would allow Elhokar to show character growth by seeing everyone but him becoming KR, but deciding not to whine and instead focus on improving and cultivating the skills he already has. Having Elhokar finally deciding that he can be himself, and be good because of it, instead of wishing that he was someone else would be a good arc.

I agree you with you about "Odium's possessed Elhokar" or "Odium's possessed anyone" unless it is masterfully done and not used as a weak ploy to create antagonists where there are none. I also agree, if Elhokar decides to side with the other side, he will do so willingly, he will do so because he will believe this is the right course of action. I can definitely see Elhokar growing into deciding his uncle's overbearing ways, him being a Radiant, his stance against Vorinism need to be opposed, I can see him choosing to be this man, to finally develop the balls he lacked to stand on his own. People are always thinking more assertive, more courageous and better at leading Elhokar would support Dalinar: I would love to see this assumption being over-thrown. I find it would be more inline with Elhokar's character who likes Dalinar, but does not love him.

I find Elhokar merely developing his skills, keeping on working with our main crew, learning how to stop being useless is not innovative enough. It is really interesting to have another Kholin bow down to Dalinar? Is it really interesting to have another whiny, "I am not good" character who grows up to develop his natural skills for the greater good? Isn't more interesting to see him grow, yes, but not in the way Dalinar wanted?

I foresee conflict here. I have always wanted to read a Dalinar/Adolin conflicted story arc, but looks like we are getting Dalinar/Elhokar and I feel the outcome would be more interesting if different.