[OB] Oathbringer 4-6

[WhiteLeeopard]

13 minutes ago, Lazarus52980 said:

Has anyone ever posited the prediction that Amaram will marry Ialai to become the new high prince?  I'm not sure why, but reading the chapters and the comments leads me to this conclusion.  He is regarded very highly and was a longtime supporter of Sadeas.  He is also a "Ruthless bastard" (per Sadeas IIRC) and that is known by only a few, but I'm sure that Ialai is one of them.  All of this plus the fact that he is a Full Shardbearer should give him the political clout to do so, and the confrontation with Dalinar should give him the motivation to take up the new title.

 

Thoughts?  Any theories on why this would not work?

Thats a popular theory. Alethi becomes highprince if they can convince enough people to call them that. Considering Amaram is really popular, and he said of Sadeas "they had an agreement", its entirely possible he can be "elected" highprince. Ialai is not that important, other than her behind the scenes power (meaning she doesn't have any automatic rights or position by been a highprince widow). But her spy network is considerable, as such an alliance/marriage with Amaram is not impossible.

On that line...I wonder how Sebarial managed to get chosen highprince, considering Alethi just respect brute strength.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

On that line...I wonder how Sebarial managed to get chosen highprince, considering Alethi just respect brute strength.

Most likely he inherited, and has been smart enough to keep it. 

People may not respect his attitude, but he's obviously smart enough to maintain his wealth at a level that paying troops is no issue. He can hire mercenaries whenever he needs. 

[Elena]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

1. Yes Kaladin was the first and an exception......which means that Captain is now the highest rank to be held by a darkeyes in the Alethi army. Surely we agree?

I mean since I didn't take the question "what's the highest rank a darkeye can have" to be a riddle I assumed we'd be talking about the highest rank a darkeye can attain barring any once-in-a-lifetime highprincely intervention. Maybe we just interpreted the question differently? 

@Lazarus52980 there's a WOB somewhere among the lines of "all you need to be Highprince is convince other people to call you that". If Sadeas has no direct heirs/ no relative powerful enough to claim the title he'd have been a strong contender for it, maybe even a natural successor - he's third dahn, a military leader and has a sterling reputation. He wouldn't need to marry Ialai and I don't think that would be something either of them wanted. Amaram seems like he wouldn't want someone that sharp poking around his affairs, and Ialai has just lost a husband she loved so she's probably more concerned with revenge than further legitimizing a man who doesn't really need help on that front.

However post-Kaladin reveal Dalinar will definitely protest his appointment, and as things stand he has enough influence with the other Highprinces that may very well block Amaram from being appointed. Also if word got out that he enslaved a darkeyed man who won a Shardblade fair and square, he would be seriously undermined as a leader. Not  even marrying Ialai would help. Also, I think he's more concerned with his Sons of Honour agenda than politics right now; he'll likely want to stay low for a while and figure out his next move.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, Elena said:

However post-Kaladin reveal Dalinar will definitely protest his appointment, and as things stand he has enough influence with the other Highprinces that may very well block Amaram from being appointed. Also if word got out that he enslaved a darkeyed man who won a Shardblade fair and square, he would be seriously undermined as a leader. Not  even marrying Ialai would help. Also, I think he's more concerned with his Sons of Honour agenda than politics right now; he'll likely want to stay low for a while and figure out his next move.

While I agree that the marriage to Ialai is unnecessary, I disagree with him not attempting it. 

The Sons of Honor want the restoration of the Vorin church. While Gavilar was alive and a member, they had inherent Political clout to aid them in their goals. That was lost when he died. 

A Highprince position is the closest they can come to power and the ability to enact their goals. If they see the opportunity they will try to seize it. 

Dalinar is technically only a Highprince. He has no rights to interfere in the internal politics of another princedom. As much as he believes Kaladin about the Shards, they have no proof. 

I think it's very likely that Amaram will be the Highprince in Sadeas place, and even without a marriage, Ialai will gladly help him just to spite the Kholins. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

15 minutes ago, Elena said:

@Lazarus52980 there's a WOB somewhere among the lines of "all you need to be Highprince is convince other people to call you that". If Sadeas has no direct heirs/ no relative powerful enough to claim the title he'd have been a strong contender for it, maybe even a natural successor - he's third dahn, a military leader and has a sterling reputation. He wouldn't need to marry Ialai and I don't think that would be something either of them wanted. Amaram seems like he wouldn't want someone that sharp poking around his affairs, and Ialai has just lost a husband she loved so she's probably more concerned with revenge than further legitimizing a man who doesn't really need help on that front.

However post-Kaladin reveal Dalinar will definitely protest his appointment, and as things stand he has enough influence with the other Highprinces that may very well block Amaram from being appointed. Also if word got out that he enslaved a darkeyed man who won a Shardblade fair and square, he would be seriously undermined as a leader. Not  even marrying Ialai would help. Also, I think he's more concerned with his Sons of Honour agenda than politics right now; he'll likely want to stay low for a while and figure out his next move

I really enjoy your posts . I hadn't realized how much standing Amaram might lose for having enslaved Kaladin and stealing his Shards. I guess because I'm used to thinking of Alethi laws as sick and twisted, with no real hard lines nor justice. But you brought up a good point, stealing Shards may be the one true taboo they have. Then again, in true alethi fashion, the only reason why they may believe the claims is because Kaladin is a KR now, back when he was thought to be a jumped up darkeyes no-one would have believed a word of it. Now...maybe, guess we'll see.

However, I disagree on Amaram not wanting the princedom, SoH are about power and influence. Its why they stole Kaladin's Shards in the first place. Getting Amaram as highprince would be quite a coup. Ialai, so long as she gets revenge will probably be happy to do anything. 

Edit, your answer to my above questions was the best and most detailed one, thank you.

Edited September 7, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Elena]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

While I agree that the marriage to Ialai is unnecessary, I disagree with him not attempting it. 

The Sons of Honor want the restoration of the Vorin church. While Gavilar was alive and a member, they had inherent Political clout to aid them in their goals. That was lost when he died. 

A Highprince position is the closest they can come to power and the ability to enact their goals. If they see the opportunity they will try to seize it. 

Dalinar is technically only a Highprince. He has no rights to interfere in the internal politics of another princedom. As much as he believes Kaladin about the Shards, they have no proof. 

I think it's very likely that Amaram will be the Highprince in Sadeas place, and even without a marriage, Ialai will gladly help him just to spite the Kholins. 

Dalinar has at least two other highprinces on his side (out of the seven currently in the city - one off a majority) and Amaram confessed in front of witnesses. Sure, he never said 'I stole a Shardblade' but to Dalinar's accusations he said he was sorry. Aldar watched him leave looking shocked. Of course Dalinar has formally no authority over Sadeas's princedom but if he makes what Amaram did public some of his own men may refuse to follow him. Think of the troubles Dalinar was having when people thought he was going insane; making it known that Amaram stole his Shardblade would be way worse - that is one of the main reason darkeyes follow lighteyes into war. Either as rumour or a straight up charge is damning, and some other highlord from Sadeas's princedom may seize the chance and the position. 

ETA: I don't want to imply that Highprinces have a say in how their peers are chosen with that 'majority' comment, I mean that if you want people to recognize you as Highprince then having some of your peers thinking you're a fraud is not a good start.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Elena

[Calderis]

Amaram has cultivated his sterling reputation very very well. 

This one rumor will be rejected, especially coming from Highprinces of another princedom. The opportunity to claim it as a political ploy is far to obvious. Amaram is well loved by his people. He's responsible for much of Sadeas's success himself. 

[Frostlander]

So, this is a very, very speculative theory based on the quotes below, including the text of the Oathbringer Prologue. I'd be pleasantly surprised if 20% of it is remotely accurate, but it's fun to think about.

Quote

I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist. I needed to write it anyway. I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims. I can point to the moment when I decided for certain this record had to be written. I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond. I thought that I was surely dead. Certainly, some who saw further than I did thought I had fallen.--Oathbringer Prologue

1

Quote

“The problem, bright one,” Kadash said, “was mysticism. The priests claimed that common men could not understand religion or the Almighty. Where there should have been openness, there was smoke and whispers. The priests began to claim visions and prophecies, though such things had been denounced by the Heralds themselves. Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future…

When the priests of the Hierocracy were cast down, the Sunmaker made a point of interrogating them and going through their correspondences with one another. It was discovered that there had been no prophecies. No mystical promises from the Almighty. That had all been an excuse, fabricated by the priests to placate and control the people.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 285). Macmillan. Kindle Edition. 

1

Someone, perhaps a (genuine) prophetic ardent living during the last days of the Hierocracy, had a particularly significant experience glimpsing the future in the Spiritual Realm through the Cognitive Realm. They returned fully to the Physical Realm with the knowledge that a history or chronicle had to be written. Given all this talk about the Sunmaker and the parallels with Dalinar uniting Roshar, I suspect that we’ll learn that some of the visions Sunmaker “investigated” and found to be false were actually true.

The book is a chronicle detailing Honor’s time on Roshar and his death or future death. As it is likely that Honor is responsible for instituting Roshar’s system of bonds after the shattering of Adonalsium, Honor is Oathbringer. The author believed that publishing the information was necessary, perhaps for a future when people lacked information but would need to better understand Roshar and Honor in order to save it. 

Some people would feel threatened by the implications of what Honor is/was or what Honor’s death meant for Roshar. Most people would see the book as heretical or even of the Voidbringers, rejecting it as evil, particularly if it involved visions of the future. (I’m not sure who would feel liberated…maybe those opposing the Sunmaker?) Perhaps the author had seen things about Honor already and shared those things, earning the label heretic.

At some point, our characters will discover in-world Oathbringer. The book will give us and them more information about how Roshar functions, about Honor, and about the importance of oaths and bonds within that system. It may also tell us more about Odium at a time when people have almost no idea how do fight a shard (or its champion).

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 minute ago, Frostlander said:

So, this is a very, very speculative theory based on the quotes below, including the text of the Oathbringer Prologue. I'd be pleasantly surprised if 20% of it is remotely accurate, but it's fun to think about.

Someone, perhaps a (genuine) prophetic ardent living during the last days of the Hierocracy, had a particularly significant experience glimpsing the future in the Spiritual Realm through the Cognitive Realm. They returned fully to the Physical Realm with the knowledge that a history or chronicle had to be written. Given all this talk about the Sunmaker and the parallels with Dalinar uniting Roshar, I suspect that we’ll learn that some of the visions Sunmaker “investigated” and found to be false were actually true.

The book is a chronicle detailing Honor’s time on Roshar and his death or future death. As it is likely that Honor is responsible for instituting Roshar’s system of bonds after the shattering of Adonalsium, Honor is Oathbringer. The author believed that publishing the information was necessary, perhaps for a future when people lacked information but would need to better understand Roshar and Honor in order to save it. 

Some people would feel threatened by the implications of what Honor is/was or what Honor’s death meant for Roshar. Most people would see the book as heretical or even of the Voidbringers, rejecting it as evil, particularly if it involved visions of the future. (I’m not sure who would feel liberated…maybe those opposing the Sunmaker?) Perhaps the author had seen things about Honor already and shared those things, earning the label heretic.

At some point, our characters will discover in-world Oathbringer. The book will give us and them more information about how Roshar functions, about Honor, and about the importance of oaths and bonds within that system. It may also tell us more about Odium at a time when people have almost no idea how do fight a shard (or its champion).

Don't believe it much, but nice theory. Have an upvote.

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Amaram has cultivated his sterling reputation very very well. 

This one rumor will be rejected, especially coming from Highprinces of another princedom. The opportunity to claim it as a political ploy is far to obvious. Amaram is well loved by his people. He's responsible for much of Sadeas's success himself. 

On normal times I'd agree. But Urithiru and KR don't count as normal times. Yes, I know highprinces are still politicking, but come on, they are entirely dependent on the KR to get supplies, and their people in and out of there. When Dalinar starts finding his powers...the faction opposing him will either dwindle or get very desperate. Probably both. (I'm just talking of those directly inside Urithiru at the moment).

Just thought, maybe Shallan hasn't said a peep so far as she is really tired since she will most likely be on perma-oathgate duty. We saw in Adolin pov people keep coming from the SP. And lending out Pattern, while possible may not be something to be done lightly.

[Nathrangking]

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Most likely he inherited, and has been smart enough to keep it. 

People may not respect his attitude, but he's obviously smart enough to maintain his wealth at a level that paying troops is no issue. He can hire mercenaries whenever he needs. 

To build on that I would not be surprised at all if some in the inner circle of the previous highprince selected him for the job due to the potential that they saw in him. He may not go out to fight wars, but he proved to be quite capable in the arts of deceit and and administration. These traits could make and in fact have made for a stable and powerful princedom which would lessen the possibility of a coup from within.

 

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Amaram has cultivated his sterling reputation very very well. 

This one rumor will be rejected, especially coming from Highprinces of another princedom. The opportunity to claim it as a political ploy is far to obvious. Amaram is well loved by his people. He's responsible for much of Sadeas's success himself. 

You are quite correct. However, the rumor is no longer coming from one who is an ordinary highprince it is coming from 2 KR 1 of whom bound the stormfather. The other who saved the king from multiple assassins and stopped the assassin in white which makes Kal very powerful. Add the fact that Amraam snuck away in the middle of the night while everyone else was trying to get to Urithiru. Add to the fact that he was caught colluding to steal from said highprince/ KR who bound the stormfather. Despite his reputation he cannot help , but take a hit from these things compounding. Add to that the fact that he is devoid of allies, any attempt to take the princedom might just prove fatal for him should he try. From a tactical point of view it would do little at this point to help the sons of honor considering that currently this princedom is far from the central sphere of influence. It would be far easier and more effective for them to regroup and try to take advantage og the chaos on Roshar than to try and obtain a nearly powerless princedom!!

[Calderis]

16 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

On normal times I'd agree. But Urithiru and KR don't count as normal times. Yes, I know highprinces are still politicking, but come on, they are entirely dependent on the KR to get supplies, and their people in and out of there. When Dalinar starts finding his powers...the faction opposing him will either dwindle or get very desperate. Probably both. (I'm just talking of those directly inside Urithiru at the moment).

Not all of the Alethi went to Urithiru. The return of the KR in conjunction with the Everstorm and the Vorin Church's opposition with Dalinar that Kadash foreshadows...  I don't think everything is just going to magically fall in to a place. Dalinar is likely to lose standing. Not gain it. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Calderis

[Elena]

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Amaram has cultivated his sterling reputation very very well. 

This one rumor will be rejected, especially coming from Highprinces of another princedom. The opportunity to claim it as a political ploy is far to obvious. Amaram is well loved by his people. He's responsible for much of Sadeas's success himself. 

The thing is, is in human nature to enjoy building people up to tear them down. There's always someone ready to believe a damning rumour, the worse the better, and I don't think Amaram would deny it were he pubblicly accused. Also we know from Kaladin's chapters in WoK that the enlisted darkeyed men (the ones most likely to be really upset after hearing something like that about Amaram) aren't shown to have particular loyalty to their princedom/ to resent and think the worst of their neighbours. Alethi unity is a nice story darkeyes are told; understanding how fragile that unity is is mostly reserved for lighteyes or in general people who are exposes to the scheming on a daily basis, like the troops on the Shattered Plains. Most people in Sadeas's princedom don't know Amaram, they have heard good things about him but they may just as inclined to believe the next bad thing they hear.

That's not to say I don't agree that him becoming Highprince could happen, for storytelling reasons, and I definitely think it would be entertaining to read. If only to get Kaladin's reaction -  I'm picturing him coughing discretely every time Amaram speaks and muttering 'liar' not-so-softly into his hand.

49 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I really enjoy your posts .

Aww thank you ❤ I finished my exams yesterday, don't have to work and start classes on Monday in the meanwhile I have absolutely aaaaall the time in the world to speculate endlessly on here

ETA:

Quote

Not all of the Alethi went to Urithiru. The return of the KR in conjunction with the Everstorm and the Vorin Church's opposition with Dalinar that Kadash foreshadows...  I don't think everything is just going to magically fall in to a place. Dalinar is likely to lose standing. Not gain it. 

(I was *sure* I had included this but post did not save??)

Anyway @Calderis I agree! Dalinar's got plenty of opposition coming his way. However, I think it will be a more gradual proces rather than overnight, and the matter of Sadeas's heir is going to be settled rather quickly - his men need a leader and the future Highprince needs to make his move before a rival gets there first. So, while I believe Dalinar will be discredited through the books, he will still be in a position where an eventual accusation against Amaram would carry plenty of weight by the time the succession is settled.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Elena

[WhiteLeeopard]

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Not all of the Alethi went to Urithiru. The return of the KR in conjunction with the Everstorm and the Vorin Church's opposition with Dalinar that Kadash foreshadows...  I don't think everything is just going to magically fall in to a place. Dalinar is likely to lose standing. Not gain it. 

I think Dalinar will gain standing in some areas, lose it in others. But he will have to learn to pick his battles and his path fast.

 

14 minutes ago, Elena said:

That's not to say I don't agree that him becoming Highprince could happen, for storytelling reasons, and I definitely think it would be entertaining to read. If only to get Kaladin's reaction -  I'm picturing him coughing discretely every time Amaram speaks and muttering 'liar' not-so-softly into his hand

Kaladin never had patience for lighteyes politics (he avoided them like the plague in WoR, even assigning others for guard on parties and political meetings with anyone not of the inner circle). I don't foresee him having any extra patience after accepting his Radiant position. Add in that Windrunners can't even lie much (Syl frowns even at simple misdirection from him) and I doubt he would hang around Amaram much. Specially as it would be like playing Russian roulette for Amaram, considering Windrunners are not constrained by laws, just by "what is right".

[king of nowhere]

25 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Kaladin never had patience for lighteyes politics (he avoided them like the plague in WoR, even assigning others for guard on parties and political meetings with anyone not of the inner circle). I don't foresee him having any extra patience after accepting his Radiant position. Add in that Windrunners can't even lie much (Syl frowns even at simple misdirection from him) and I doubt he would hang around Amaram much. Specially as it would be like playing Russian roulette for Amaram, considering Windrunners are not constrained by laws, just by "what is right".

It would be nice to see amaram's reaction to seeing kaladin always around him. add the mysterious circumstances of sadeas' murder, i would not be surprised if he just run away screaming at some point

[Elena]

14 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

It would be nice to see amaram's reaction to seeing kaladin always around him. add the mysterious circumstances of sadeas' murder, i would not be surprised if he just run away screaming at some point

He can pretend he's 'guarding' Dalinar. From what? "From thieves, Amaram". Everywhere he turns, Kaladin is there. Bumping him in the shoulder in doorways, always staring, looking at Amaram like he's picturing him getting eaten by a Chasmfiend. Brooding in that special way only Kaladin knows. Playing with a dagger very similar to the one they found into Sadeas's eyesock. Attracting deathspren. Smiling.

 

Now, on a slightly less ridiculous note. I was rereading the chapters for like the 6th time, and

Quote

“Hesina,” Lirin said, throwing his hands into the air.

“Yes?”

“Write a letter to the highprince’s administrators,” Lirin said. “Explain the situation; see if we can get a forbearance, or at least an explanation.” 

This sounds to me like they have working spanreeds because he is expecting a quick response (though writing to Sadeas's capital to ask questions about Kaladin sounds like it might backfire) and that made me wonder - how do spanreeds work exaxtly? Do they also run on stormlight? If yes, how do so many people across Roshar have them so far into the Weeping?

[WhiteLeeopard]

20 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

It would be nice to see amaram's reaction to seeing kaladin always around him. add the mysterious circumstances of sadeas' murder, i would not be surprised if he just run away screaming at some point

That would indeed be fun . But unless Kaladin grows up a lot in OB, not sure he has the control and patience to pull it off. Although according to Syl his glares are already perfected, so 1 tool down.

1 minute ago, Elena said:

He can pretend he's 'guarding' Dalinar. From what? "From thieves, Amaram". Everywhere he turns, Kaladin is there. Bumping him in the shoulder in doorways, always staring, looking at Amaram like he's picturing him getting eaten by a Chasmfiend. Brooding in that special way only Kaladin knows. Playing with a dagger very similar to the one they found into Sadeas's eyesock. Attracting deathspren. Smiling.

I believe you mean (Mistborn era 1)

Spoiler

Kelsier with that comment  

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Elena]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I believe you mean (Mistborn era 1)

  Hide contents

Kelsier with that comment  

 

That's a world hopping I'd be down to see!

[Nathrangking]

6 minutes ago, Elena said:

He can pretend he's 'guarding' Dalinar. From what? "From thieves, Amaram". Everywhere he turns, Kaladin is there. Bumping him in the shoulder in doorways, always staring, looking at Amaram like he's picturing him getting eaten by a Chasmfiend. Brooding in that special way only Kaladin knows. Playing with a dagger very similar to the one they found into Sadeas's eyesock. Attracting deathspren. Smiling.

yes please!! "Don't trip on your shardblade amraam!!" @WhiteLeeopard wouldn't you just love to see Kal and Kel team up to tee off on Amraam?

[WhiteLeeopard]

12 minutes ago, Elena said:

That's a world hopping I'd be down to see!

Totally. Will drop this part of the conversation in mistborn spoilers just in case. 

Spoiler

But considering how insanely powerful Kelsier is now, and the little love he has for nobles, added to the incredibly skewed Vorin system I wouldn't be surprised if he took up where Szeth left off. Except for maybe some of the more honorable ones, as he generally did a bit of research before murdering.

Back on topic, I did also snort when I heard of Hesina writing to Sadeas administrators about Kaladin. 

"Yes! He is a runaway slave! Return immediately or you will be executed on the spot. And no, not even 100 diamond spheres is enough of a price"

"Storms son, why are the highprince Sadeas administrators so obsesed with you?"

"..."

7 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

yes please!! "Don't trip on your shardblade amraam!!" @WhiteLeeopard wouldn't you just love to see Kal and Kel team up to tee off on Amraam?

Kel is my favorite character. I'd love it forever, might even cheer up Kal with his insane cheerfulnes. Unfortunately a sociopath and a windrunner might have some issues. 

I kind of have a dream that Kel could be the God-Priest of Tukar. Because...religion+god+fanatics-Shard= Kelsier

Alas, its very unlikely.

Edited September 7, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[king of nowhere]

32 minutes ago, Elena said:

He can pretend he's 'guarding' Dalinar. From what? "From thieves, Amaram". Everywhere he turns, Kaladin is there. Bumping him in the shoulder in doorways, always staring, looking at Amaram like he's picturing him getting eaten by a Chasmfiend. Brooding in that special way only Kaladin knows. Playing with a dagger very similar to the one they found into Sadeas's eyesock. Attracting deathspren. Smiling.

 

I am just trying to picture how kaladin can trim his nails with a knife identical to the one who killed sadeas while smiling and looking at amaram and staring at the same time. the smile+stare is really difficult to pull off. Ah, well, you can't have perfection. Either smiling or staring is already enough

[maxal]

17 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I'm not giving those guys a free pass so much as they've been more fleshed out so that they're easier to relate to. Kaladin was too much of a coward to contact his parents after failing his promise....but he's also tormented by his failures.

.....unlike Adolin. 

"Well whoops, let me go to work. Oh, they found the body? About time! Now let's get this wedding going boyyyssss."

I think you are not reading enough into Adolin's short POV. He is not coping. Remember how Shallan refused to even acknowledged she had killed her parents? Adolin is similar. He did not forget, but he is not coping, he is not processing. In shorts, he is in denial and denial is a protection mechanism. And yes, we have spent a lot of time insight Kaladin's head, so we know the extend of his torments, we are barely starting to get to know Adolin better. Why not wait until the story unravels before saying he is a one-dimensional coward?

As for the wedding, Adolin rides on emotions: his reaction was... big. We can either read it as a mere testimony as to how happy he is for his father or we can read it as a testimony as to how unhinged he really is. When your fuse has been cut short, you react more strongly, to everything, including happiness. I think we might have seen that: Adolin has no more buffer, hence when emotions kick in, they take all the place. 

16 hours ago, Pattern said:

Are we sure this writ still exists? I could imagine Dalinar destroying that as the visions turned out not to be madness (when Navani was able to identify his mumbles as the dawnchant). At least that is what I would do in his position, and I don't think Adolin would have been unwilling to get rid of the responsibiity.

Well, it wasn't mentioned after WoK, so we have to assume it still exists. Also, the writ was made after the visions were proven true, as a safety measure. As far as we know, it remains a loose canon.

16 hours ago, SLNC said:

We all have a certain bias towards our favorite characters and tend to turn a blind eye to their faults and idolize their strengths. While I don't think, that Adolin is a coward for not bringing up his involvement with Sadeas' death immediately, hell, I don't think you can fault him for a certain interest of self-preservation, I would be very disappointed, if this whole thing just got ignored, should Adolin get found out or confess.

I mean, let's face it. If it would have been Kaladin, who killed Sadeas, well, for one thing, he would probably have lost Syl again, but more importantly he would have been held to a different standard, despite Sadeas still being the same evil man, because of him being a darkeyes. I can't stand double standards and if Adolin somehow gets away unscathed, because he is a lighteyed prince, I would probably get pretty angry. But we will see.

Maybe, but then again, the fandom can have an overly negative bias towards any characters not currently being a Radiant... Adolin certainly is not perfect, but he is not a coward which is something we both agree on. I personally do not think the reason he didn't bring it up is linked to an instinct of self-preservation, I think he is just not coping, not dealing. He is in complete denial: he refuses to sit down and think about it, he makes sure he will never have one free moment where he might inadvertently start to think about it. So far, within the story, this is how Adolin has dealt with his internal issues: by ignoring they even exists, by keeping on trying to be the one he thinks they all need. His reaction is very consistent with his character, but he is over-compensating and, eventually, something will make him trip and the mask will fall. We just have to wait.

I honestly do not think Adolin will be help to a different standard because he is a prince, I think the opposite, actually. Because he is a prince, they will demand he is made an example. They go harsher on him because of his status, not despite it.

16 hours ago, SLNC said:

Interesting... I do think, that Adolin has enough integrity to form his own opinions, but his emotional state obviously isn't the most... stable right now. I mean, like you said in a later post, I was just as surprised to see his reaction during the wedding. It's nice, that he is happy for his father and, I guess now, step-mother, but I think it was just another exaggerated reaction to distract him from his guilt.

I do think, that hearing the truth about Dalinar's past could break him to a point of turning against him and using the writ, especially considering that Dalinar is saying stuff like the Almighty is dead, which could be a way to prove his so-called insanity.

I think Adolin's emotional state is fragile enough that hearing his father has murdered his mother in blood rage while actually trying to save her could be enough to make him trip. His pain might be enough to have him agree with nefarious plans, just as Kaladin's anger was enough to agree to assassinate Elhokar but, just like Kaladin, I have good confidence Adolin would get cold feet and realize his mistake.

Currently, I am leaning towards the fall down, in between Dalinar and Adolin, to not happen because Adolin murdered Sadeas, but because Adolin learns the truth about his mother. After the danger is passed, then Adolin admits his guilt to his father s accepting his father is no hero and has made terrible mistake may be what he needs to start accepting he is not perfect. Maybe this is how it will play out, ultimately, but something will happen. If I am to believe the words on the street, Adolin is not supposed to disappoint within this book, so more will obviously come.

14 hours ago, Elena said:

I saw his drunk moods more about feeling self-pitying after he heard his own guards call him a bad king/ implying nobody really cares about him than "wanting to be an object of worship". The last time we saw him before the assasination attempt he was asking Kaladin to teach him how to become a beloved leader, in a very sulky, very roundabout way. Kaladin, a darkeyed soldier, told him that yes, he is a bad king. Elhokar's answer? "Well, I did ask". When Kaladin rescues him from Graves and Moash and tells him he is doing it because Elhokar keeps trying even if he always screws up, Elhokar thaks him. That doesn't sound particularly arrogant to me; it sounds like he got knocked down a peg or two and may begin to learn from his mistakes. I'm not saying Elhokar is going to turn humble all of a sudden but acting like his only concern is being a hero and doesn't care about becoming an effective king is a disservice to his character. 

Elhokar has yet to state he has any intentions into becoming a good king for the right reason. All he said is he wished for his people to revere him, to see him as a strong king: he never utter one word of care towards how his decision making may impact the life of those he is supposed to rule. When he does this, when he states he wants something for reasons other than himself, I will revise my opinion of him. Right now, nothing has indicated he was able to move pass his own selfishness.

11 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

We're still at chapter 6, give it time. It would be very anticlimatic if it was never discovered. And if adolin confessed now, it would risk undermining all of his father's work.

Yes, this is right. Having only three chapters per week to read may give us the impression the story is not moving forward fast enough, but it is moving forward. So far, we have had 1 chapter dealing with visions, 1 chapter dealing with the wedding, 2 chapters dealing with Kaladin, 1 flashback and 2 overall chapters dealing with the murder, one of them merely being them finding it out about it.

We can expect more, soon.

Edit: Also, on Amaram being the next Highprince, I am totally on-board with it. Dalinar has no word into what happens into another princedom and very few people will give any credence to the accusations against Amaram. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by maxal

[Fulminato]

Amaram reached up and undid it, then dropped it to the rock. He turned and started to walk away.
“No!” Kaladin said, stumbling after him.
“Let him go, son,” Dalinar said, sighing. “His reputation is broken.”
“He is still a murderer.”
“And we will try him fairly,” Dalinar said, “once I return. I can’t imprison him—Shardbearers are above that, and he’d cut his way out anyway. Either you execute a Shardbearer or you leave him free.”

WoR Chapter 76: the hidden blade

I don't think should be room for amaran to exit clean to the situation.

[Steeldancer]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

I think you are not reading enough into Adolin's short POV. He is not coping. Remember how Shallan refused to even acknowledged she had killed her parents? Adolin is similar. He did not forget, but he is not coping, he is not processing. In shorts, he is in denial and denial is a protection mechanism. And yes, we have spent a lot of time insight Kaladin's head, so we know the extend of his torments, we are barely starting to get to know Adolin better. Why not wait until the story unravels before saying he is a one-dimensional coward?

As for the wedding, Adolin rides on emotions: his reaction was... big. We can either read it as a mere testimony as to how happy he is for his father or we can read it as a testimony as to how unhinged he really is. When your fuse has been cut short, you react more strongly, to everything, including happiness. I think we might have seen that: Adolin has no more buffer, hence when emotions kick in, they take all the place. 

Well, it wasn't mentioned after WoK, so we have to assume it still exists. Also, the writ was made after the visions were proven true, as a safety measure. As far as we know, it remains a loose canon.

Maybe, but then again, the fandom can have an overly negative bias towards any characters not currently being a Radiant... Adolin certainly is not perfect, but he is not a coward which is something we both agree on. I personally do not think the reason he didn't bring it up is linked to an instinct of self-preservation, I think he is just not coping, not dealing. He is in complete denial: he refuses to sit down and think about it, he makes sure he will never have one free moment where he might inadvertently start to think about it. So far, within the story, this is how Adolin has dealt with his internal issues: by ignoring they even exists, by keeping on trying to be the one he thinks they all need. His reaction is very consistent with his character, but he is over-compensating and, eventually, something will make him trip and the mask will fall. We just have to wait.

I honestly do not think Adolin will be help to a different standard because he is a prince, I think the opposite, actually. Because he is a prince, they will demand he is made an example. They go harsher on him because of his status, not despite it.

I think Adolin's emotional state is fragile enough that hearing his father has murdered his mother in blood rage while actually trying to save her could be enough to make him trip. His pain might be enough to have him agree with nefarious plans, just as Kaladin's anger was enough to agree to assassinate Elhokar but, just like Kaladin, I have good confidence Adolin would get cold feet and realize his mistake.

Currently, I am leaning towards the fall down, in between Dalinar and Adolin, to not happen because Adolin murdered Sadeas, but because Adolin learns the truth about his mother. After the danger is passed, then Adolin admits his guilt to his father s accepting his father is no hero and has made terrible mistake may be what he needs to start accepting he is not perfect. Maybe this is how it will play out, ultimately, but something will happen. If I am to believe the words on the street, Adolin is not supposed to disappoint within this book, so more will obviously come.

Elhokar has yet to state he has any intentions into becoming a good king for the right reason. All he said is he wished for his people to revere him, to see him as a strong king: he never utter one word of care towards how his decision making may impact the life of those he is supposed to rule. When he does this, when he states he wants something for reasons other than himself, I will revise my opinion of him. Right now, nothing has indicated he was able to move pass his own selfishness.

Yes, this is right. Having only three chapters per week to read may give us the impression the story is not moving forward fast enough, but it is moving forward. So far, we have had 1 chapter dealing with visions, 1 chapter dealing with the wedding, 2 chapters dealing with Kaladin, 1 flashback and 2 overall chapters dealing with the murder, one of them merely being them finding it out about it.

We can expect more, soon.

 

Uh oh someone got Maxal started 

[maxal]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

Uh oh someone got Maxal started 

I merely responded to people who responded to me today. A hard task considering all the talk these days. I wish I had more time to answer to other posts as well. Later.

[Elena]

6 minutes ago, maxal said:

Elhokar has yet to state he has any intentions into becoming a good king for the right reason. All he said is he wished for his people to revere him, to see him as a strong king: he never utter one word of care towards how his decision making may impact the life of those he is supposed to rule. When he does this, when he states he wants something for reasons other than himself, I will revise my opinion of him. Right now, nothing has indicated he was able to move pass his own selfishness.

I understand Elhokar is contoversial but him being selfish and spoiled doesn't automatically mean he's going to become a bad guy. BTW I was referring to the bit where he tells Kal that he feels he doesn't know how to run a kingdom even though he was 'born for it', and references screwing up every time he tryes to take charge and trusting all the wrong people. I wouldn't say he only cares about looking good - he sounds like he wants to be a good king. So that other people will like him, definitely, but he wants to be a good and beloved king instead of going the Amaram route.