+Extesian Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Quote He glanced to the side, where Sadeas’s soldiers had rounded up some weeping women for Sadeas to pick from. “I was looking forward to tonight,” Sadeas noted. A thread to discuss how disgusting Sadeas was. Over to you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Are we really surprised? Hoid wouldn't make a prostitute joke at his expense if it weren't true. I feel bad for the prostitutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Hmmm lets not beat around the bush. Sex slaves. Not prostitutes. And I'm not surprised but reading it is...harder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, Extesian said: Hmmm lets not beat around the bush. Sex slaves. Not prostitutes. And I'm not surprised but reading it is...harder I was trying to avoid the more sensitive topic. That's apparently an issue for me lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Apart from the sex slaves thing in the flashback... The Tower. That betrayal is completely disgusting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ravioli Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 I mean sure Sadeas was a pig, but let's not forget that our now-hero Dalinar was totally cool with it happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Ravi said: I mean sure Sadeas was a pig, but let's not forget that our now-hero Dalinar was totally cool with it happening. Absolutely. I have never seen Dalinar on a pedestal, and there are many many things about him I don't like or disagree with. But at least Dalinar changed his ways. Sadeas was happily continuing on his debauchery, all the while honestly believing he was a good highprince, and that the world owed him everything. Its why I want to throttle everyone saying Adolin is going evil. ADOLIN DID SOMETHING GOOD, HE DESERVES A MEDAL. Edited August 30, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pammie Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said: Its why I want to throttle everyone saying Adolin is going evil. ADOLIN DID SOMETHING GOOD, HE DESERVES A MEDAL. I totally agree, AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES THE SITUATION SO INTERESTING. Sadeas was a sociopathic bastard who definitely would've tried to use the situation with the Everstorm and Desolations for personal gain. Adolin's actions saved them a lot of pain in the future, but a lot of characters won't be happy with him, especially Kaladin and Dalinar. (Kaladin because of his new protect-those-I-hate thing, and Dalinar because of his sense of honor/The Codes.) It is kind of weird how Dalinar remembers his 'old friend Sadeas' so fondly, has he forgotten instances like this? Maybe thinking about Sadeas' past crimes remind him of his own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 14 minutes ago, Pammie said: It is kind of weird how Dalinar remembers his 'old friend Sadeas' so fondly, has he forgotten instances like this? Maybe thinking about Sadeas' past crimes remind him of his own? It's really not that odd. Dalinar was no better. He's remembering the feelings of comraderie(sp?), separated from the actions they were involved in. Admitting that Sadeas was always a monster means admitting he was too. And yes Dalinar's changed but I don't really think he's admitted how disgusting he was to himself. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amended Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Dalinar is no longer the person he was, at all. From Gavilar's assassination to WoK he spent so time rehauling himself to live up to Gavilar's final words that I doubt he thought too much about his past, and during WoK he made peace with his past in regards to how it led him to who he now is. He'll regret the actions of his past, sure, but he's learned from it, moved on, and is trying to save the world, which certainly a good way to say sorry for actions of the past. I think many people forget with all of the Moses parallels that Dalinar has that Moses was an Egyptian prince and warlord for a long time before his turn as a prophet, with all the implications and abuses that the position carried. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 @Amended the changes in Dalinar are obvious. I don't disagree. All I'm saying is that he hasn't truly faced his past actions. His thoughts in the tWoK show that pretty clearly in his battle moments where he talks about needing to be the Blackthorn once again. He associates his past with bloody action and drunkenness. He hasn't admitted how callous and sociopathic he was though. Accepting that the past helped make him into who he is now does not mean acknowledging the depths of depravity he reached. Frankly, I feel less for Navani because she had feelings for him back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, Calderis said: Frankly, I feel less for Navani because she had feelings for him back then. I never thought of this before, but its true. She chose between two pillaging, blood-covered warlords, one who wanted to bring the end of the world, and one who just wanted to kill things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Yeah the prologue made me hate Sadeas even more and love Dalinar even more. Seeing how much he has changed for the better is refreshing while Sadeas was the same conceited pig. However, the fact that Dalinar feels pity for Sadeas is at the peak of his character development imo. To look past a person's mistakes and think of their good side takes so much character its almost impossible(especially when the person has personally wronged you) This is what separates him from the rest of the characters like Kaladin who cant look past their hatred. I'm honestly pretty surprised people are not taking Dalinar's side in this issue. Sure we feel sympathy for Adolin but I fell awe for Dalinar who stands for what's right despite all of the pressure he goes through etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) I'm not sure Dalinar stands for what is right in this situation. I think he is just blind and refusing to see the facts. "Sadeas was a brilliant general". Whose brilliancy consisted of his sociopathic ability to use people's lifes like cannon fodder. Something that would have likely made Kaladin kill him if he had tried it again. And on that line, people saying "Kaladin will be furious at what Adolin did". Kaladin swore the third oath! He didn't get a brain transplant! "I will protect those I hate, so long as it is right". Highly doubt he would have ever seen protecting Sadeas as something right. Sadeas had zero qualities to give the new world, he wasn't going to be anything but an impediment, and he would just cost lifes in the future, only question is how many. Dalinar just doesn't want to accept this. Probably, because as Calderis said, it would mean taking a long hard look at what he himself really was like in the past. Dalinar's blindness cost 6k lifes in WoK, and since he showed no sign of changing that part of himself, he might very well have cost all of Roshar due to his inability to see the truth in front of him. Fortunately he has a great son who saved him from himself. Edited August 30, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 @StormblessDave in order for Dalinar to look past anything to Sadeas's good qualities, he'd have to have had them. Sadeas was remarkably intelligent, and he used that intelligence to manipulate people. As a strategist, as @WhiteLeeopard pointed out, his brilliance relied on winning with no regard for the cost in life. He took any positive traits he had an used them to sate his greed, lust, and fear of being forgotten. Looking past the way someone uses their traits in order to find the good isn't admirable, it's blind and naive. Sadeas was completely despicable, and the unification of Alethkar shows that Gavilar and Dalinar were as well. I honestly think that at some point in this book, Dalinar us going to have to truly face who he was, and I don't think it's going to be pleasant for him at all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathrangking Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 SADEAS WAS A SPINELESS PIG!! He saw the world burning and all he could think about was how to spin it to his advantage. Forget about the fact that all life on the planet may come to an end , but that's no problem I'll kill the guy who is trying to stop it and rebuild a soon to be non existent kingdom in his image. He had the audacity to say that Adolin would in time see that he was doing the right thing!! The man was an extreme narcissist, a sadist, and a hypocrite. The almighty/ stormfather found someone to take the role of saving humankind and he defies him in the same breath that he uses vorinism as a justification for throwing away thousands of lives. The fact that to him the Ideal was a return to the Blackthorn is sickening! He wanted a sociopathic monster to return simply because he was very much the same. Dalinar cannot write him off because had the circumstances been different that is exactly how he would be. Had he not changed he might well be everything that Sadeas is and more to say nothing of how he might have raised Adolin and Renarin. He may not just be in denial I think that there is something far more psychologically profound going on here. He sees himself in Sadeas and knows full well that he could have been as bad or worse in the current day if events had played out differently. He can hide behind Sadeas's tactical genius and not condemn him, because I believe that Dalinar is both sympathetic towards the man that could of been and very much frightened that the Blackthorn lurks within him. He could well fear the monster within and that causes him to perhaps doubt the evil of the man. If it still exists within him can he then condemn a man who held similar violence and darkness. He may have been able to suppress it, but is it gone. I believe that that fear haunts him and denies him the ability to offer up a condemnation of who in fact he may still be. His sympathy is also a factor that plays off of his fear and makes the blinding factor even worse than the fear alone could be. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Calderis said: I honestly think that at some point in this book, Dalinar us going to have to truly face who he was, and I don't think it's going to be pleasant for him at all. I would love to see this, specially as I feel it would push him past many of the things that irk me about him. But at the same time...while Shallan faced and accepted her past, she did it becuase thats how her order works. Did Kaladin really face and accept his past? Not entirely... Although hopefully Hearthstone will be closed on this book. Edited August 30, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 25 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: He may not just be in denial I think that there is something far more psychologically profound going on here. He sees himself in Sadeas and knows full well that he could have been as bad or worse in the current day if events had played out differently. He can hide behind Sadeas's tactical genius and not condemn him, because I believe that Dalinar is both sympathetic towards the man that could of been and very much frightened that the Blackthorn lurks within him. He could well fear the monster within and that causes him to perhaps doubt the evil of the man. If it still exists within him can he then condemn a man who held similar violence and darkness. He may have been able to suppress it, but is it gone. I believe that that fear haunts him and denies him the ability to offer up a condemnation of who in fact he may still be. His sympathy is also a factor that plays off of his fear and makes the blinding factor even worse than the fear alone could be. Um, that's exactly what denial is. It's subconscious and deeply rooted, but he doesn't think about it because he can't face it. It's denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 In such a racist society, I don't believe the treatment Sadeas gave those women would have been frowned upon asmuch which doesn't make it any better, just more understandable. The fact that Dalinar had both lighteyes and darkeyes in his elite force was pretty cool. Dalinar was a soldier who liked killing, not the worst thing ive seen. What exactly is his horror? In a warfilled society that glorifies the life of a soldier isn't this normal? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathrangking Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 I did not argue that he was denying himself or what he had done @Calderis. I argue that he fears in a real way that he is still the kind of man that Sadeas was and that he had been. While denial is subconscious I do not believe that that is what he is doing. I think it is all very deliberate on his part and he recognizes the root of the problem. He is being driven by something which may or may not still exist within him. That I think is what he grapples with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 If he feared it, and were aware of it, I don't think he'd have casually considered needing the Blackthorn early in the books. So I'll just disagree and drop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Calderis said: He associates his past with bloody action and drunkenness. He hasn't admitted how callous and sociopathic he was though Doesn't bloody action and violence(in excess) make you callous? I'm talking about the general cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stBondsmith Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) Didn't any of you notice the part where Sadeas asked Dalinar "Not again. Who did you promise this time?" Dalinar has stopped the spoiling and slaving before. Looks to me like he uses these promises as an excuse to stop the practice more than once. He proposed the terms to the archer, and enforced them quickly without the archer's approval. Edited August 30, 2017 by 1stBondsmith typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 48 minutes ago, StormblessDave said: Doesn't bloody action and violence(in excess) make you callous? I'm talking about the general cases. Not in alethi society. Those things were glorified. 47 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said: Looks to me like he uses these promises as an excuse to stop the practice more than once I honestly wouldn't look for excuses to make Dalinar seem better then. He was a monster through and through, any good things came from carelessness or practicality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said: I honestly wouldn't look for excuses to make Dalinar seem better then. He was a monster through and through, any good things came from carelessness or practicality. Yeah. "if you join me, we'll spare you're friends and family" doesn't come across to me as "how can I stop this rape and pillage thing?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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