Jump to content

Can't someone explain compounding?


AnonymousFan

Recommended Posts

I don't really understand the concept, not sure how I don't know this by now. I know what compounding does and I know it's effects, just not sure how it works.

 

Mostly I want to know: Does compounding work by burning a metal then filling a metalmind with that metal? Ex: burning pewter to make you stronger which gives you extra strength to put into the metalmind. 

Or does it work by burning a metalmind filled up? Like Vin tried to do. 

 

Or or is there a third option I'm not thinking about?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it works through both of those methods. First an attribute is stored in some metal which is then burned provided extra amounts of that particular attribute. This not only allows for a superboost but also allows for the excess to be stored in another metalminds which themselves can be burned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can store the excess strength from pewter Allomancy but that's not compounding. 

Compounding is what Vin attempted but couldn't do because the power was Identity locked to Sazed. 

You store and then burn the stored attribute and it overwrites the allomantic power with the feruchemical one 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We need to introduce some background information on how Allomancy works to properly explain Compounding.

The simplest definition is that it’s powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. Or it’s end-positive Feruchemy. In opposition to normal Feruchemy, power is gained

How does it work?

First of all, Compounder is a person who has Allomantic and Feruchemical powers tied to the same metal. Compounding itself consists of allomantically burning feruchemically filled metal (metalmind).

How does that work? Let’s take example of iron. Normally burning iron allows to Pull on metals. However, while burning iron metalmind Compounder becomes multiple time heavier. Why?

In normal process of burning metal its molecular structure shapes the Investiture flowing in; but when the metal is also a filled metalmind (that Compounder has access to), the feruchemical charge overwrites the filter.
Then instead of causing an allomantic effect, Investiture causes a burst of feruchemical attribute (it was speculated to be tenfold of what was stored).
At the same time, it’s possible to store that great amount of power in another metalmind, then burn that one repeating Compounding process; as a result one gains an exponential increase of feruchemical power.

Note that metal is normally consumed in the process, as it is burned away.

For purposes of almost all Compounders it means a virtually infinite amount of feruchemical attribute. Why not all? Here we have to explain one of basic limits of Feruchemy.

Law of diminishing returns

Although it’s an end-neutral art, one has to be prepared to deal with losses. A proportional increase of gained power requires to spend more than proportionally greater gathered power.

For example, if Skimmer has stored weight, he could for some time - let’s say an hour - be twice as heavy. Hovever, if he wanted to double the gained weight*, it will last less than half an hour. If he wanted to multiply it sixty times**, it will last much less than a minute.

In other words, the more or the faster you draw from metalmind, the greater the losses. It’s because some of the power is used to “compress” the rest. The more you have to “compress”, the more power is wasted on that.

Usually it’s not really important - how often do somebody needs to weigh few tons or be muscular like a koloss?
However, it’s probably a serious problem for Bloodmakes - they usually need to regenerate multiple times faster, healing serious wounds in a matter of seconds.

Double atium

In the case of prolonging one’s life by Compounding age the problem is very serious. TLR at the end of his life to stay young had to use around a thousand years - energy loss must have been a serious matter.

What’s worse, he had to tap atium all the time to stay alive. Additionaly - in contrast to other attributes - he had to spend more and more of youth because the aging process happened normally (age is written in Spiritweb).
In the end, to maintain his youth, he would have needed to Compound atium constantly, burning metalminds all the time, and then even that wouldn’t suffice. It’s hard to tell when that moment would occur though.

Therefore, double atium does not provide infinitely long life (in opposition to other known to us methods).

* so he would have been three times as heavy: his usual weight + double from Feruchemy
** like above: he would have been sixty one times heavier

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

You can store the excess strength from pewter Allomancy but that's not compounding. 

Compounding is what Vin attempted but couldn't do because the power was Identity locked to Sazed. 

You store and then burn the stored attribute and it overwrites the allomantic power with the feruchemical one 

K makes sense... that's the part I don't understand though, you're constantly losing the metals you use? So why did miles wear visible metalmind a if you need to burn them? (Maybe he didn't and I'm just not paying attention) Or why did the mystical bracers have the power to be refilled by compounding?

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

We need to introduce some background information on how Allomancy works to properly explain Compounding.

The simplest definition is that it’s powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. Or it’s end-positive Feruchemy. In opposition to normal Feruchemy, power is gained

How does it work?

First of all, Compounder is a person who has Allomantic and Feruchemical powers tied to the same metal. Compounding itself consists of allomantically burning feruchemically filled metal (metalmind).

How does that work? Let’s take example of iron. Normally burning iron allows to Pull on metals. However, while burning iron metalmind Compounder becomes multiple time heavier. Why?

In normal process of burning metal its molecular structure shapes the Investiture flowing in; but when the metal is also a filled metalmind (that Compounder has access to), the feruchemical charge overwrites the filter.
Then instead of causing an allomantic effect, Investiture causes a burst of feruchemical attribute (it was speculated to be tenfold of what was stored).
At the same time, it’s possible to store that great amount of power in another metalmind, then burn that one repeating Compounding process; as a result one gains an exponential increase of feruchemical power.

Note that metal is normally consumed in the process, as it is burned away.

For purposes of almost all Compounders it means a virtually infinite amount of feruchemical attribute. Why not all? Here we have to explain one of basic limits of Feruchemy.

Law of diminishing returns

Although it’s an end-neutral art, one has to be prepared to deal with losses. A proportional increase of gained power requires to spend more than proportionally greater gathered power.

For example, if Skimmer has stored weight, he could for some time - let’s say an hour - be twice as heavy. Hovever, if he wanted to double the gained weight*, it will last less than half an hour. If he wanted to multiply it sixty times**, it will last much less than a minute.

In other words, the more or the faster you draw from metalmind, the greater the losses. It’s because some of the power is used to “compress” the rest. The more you have to “compress”, the more power is wasted on that.

Usually it’s not really important - how often do somebody needs to weigh few tons or be muscular like a koloss?
However, it’s probably a serious problem for Bloodmakes - they usually need to regenerate multiple times faster, healing serious wounds in a matter of seconds.

Double atium

In the case of prolonging one’s life by Compounding age the problem is very serious. TLR at the end of his life to stay young had to use around a thousand years - energy loss must have been a serious matter.

What’s worse, he had to tap atium all the time to stay alive. Additionaly - in contrast to other attributes - he had to spend more and more of youth because the aging process happened normally (age is written in Spiritweb).
In the end, to maintain his youth, he would have needed to Compound atium constantly, burning metalminds all the time, and then even that wouldn’t suffice. It’s hard to tell when that moment would occur though.

Therefore, double atium does not provide infinitely long life (in opposition to other known to us methods).

* so he would have been three times as heavy: his usual weight + double from Feruchemy
** like above: he would have been sixty one times heavier

Awesome explanation thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, AnonymousFan said:

K makes sense... that's the part I don't understand though, you're constantly losing the metals you use? So why did miles wear visible metalmind a if you need to burn them? (Maybe he didn't and I'm just not paying attention) Or why did the mystical bracers have the power to be refilled by compounding?

Because when the compounder burns his metalmind he gets far more of the attribute than he needs at the time. Allomancy will give him the attribute at a set rate, whether he wants that much or not.

To take Oversleeps Iron compounder, if he burns a metalmind to get more weight it is unlikely he wants to be that much heavier at the time of burning, so he can store the excess weight to tap as and when it is needed.

Same with Miles, Miles didnt need much healing normally, so he stored it, giving him an insane amount of health to tap when he needed it.

The Lord Ruler also stored it and then tapped it constantly to stay in his prime. Just burning it and becoming a baby was of no use, he needed to be able to tap it at the rate he wanted, not the rate allomancy provided naturally.

Thats why they all carry metalminds to store the attribute, compounding just allows them to fill the metalmind much faster so they have access to more of the attribute. The bands can be recharged the same way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2017-08-30 at 2:51 AM, Jace21 said:

Because when the compounder burns his metalmind he gets far more of the attribute than he needs at the time. Allomancy will give him the attribute at a set rate, whether he wants that much or not.

To take Oversleeps Iron compounder, if he burns a metalmind to get more weight it is unlikely he wants to be that much heavier at the time of burning, so he can store the excess weight to tap as and when it is needed.

Same with Miles, Miles didnt need much healing normally, so he stored it, giving him an insane amount of health to tap when he needed it.

The Lord Ruler also stored it and then tapped it constantly to stay in his prime. Just burning it and becoming a baby was of no use, he needed to be able to tap it at the rate he wanted, not the rate allomancy provided naturally.

Thats why they all carry metalminds to store the attribute, compounding just allows them to fill the metalmind much faster so they have access to more of the attribute. The bands can be recharged the same way.

Ohhh,  think I finally understand, so they eat some metal and wear others? That way they can fill and then burn metal inside them to fill the metal outside. Also that little bit they fill can charge the stuff inside them....

 

Hmm it sure would be nice to be a steel compounder... Say, now that we're onto that subject, some would be pretty useless to compound for example:

Copper (how can you compound memories or knowledge?) and ones like aluminum, duralumin and tin wouldn't be that helpful to compound.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, AnonymousFan said:

Ohhh,  think I finally understand, so they eat some metal and wear others? That way they can fill and then burn metal inside them to fill the metal outside. Also that little bit they fill can charge the stuff inside them....

 

Hmm it sure would be nice to be a steel compounder... Say, now that we're onto that subject, some would be pretty useless to compound for example:

Copper (how can you compound memories or knowledge?) and ones like aluminum, duralumin and tin wouldn't be that helpful to compound.

 

Exactly :) its a cycle that essentially results in a potentially unlimited supply of the feruchemical attribute.

The main exception being Atium as eventually you will reach an upper limit where you cant compound enough to compensate for your spiritual age trying to overwrite the age your Feruchemy has made you.

Difficult to say with Aluminium amd Duralumin as we havent had many exampes of what you can do with Connection or Identity.

There is some debate as to what you get if you compound copper but I dont think we actually know.

Tin could be useful, it might be handy to hyper-enhance 1 or more of your senses sometimes.

Edited by Jace21
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Difficult to say with Aluminium amd Duralumin as we havent had many exampes of what you can do with Connection or Identity.

Just speculation here, but Identity could make you completely invulnerable to soulcasting/or soulstamps (bit of a niche worldhopper use there), and depending on how versatile connection it could be very useful. Instant bonds formed to just about anything you choose. People, places, things. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/9/2017 at 4:10 AM, Calderis said:

Just speculation here, but Identity could make you completely invulnerable to soulcasting/or soulstamps (bit of a niche worldhopper use there), and depending on how versatile connection it could be very useful. Instant bonds formed to just about anything you choose. People, places, things. 

Yeah I was the first to propose the Identity boost as a magic defence but from the time I find some hard to ignore counter to that...So I am not so sure as I was <_<

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Yata said:

Yeah I was the first to propose the Identity boost as a magic defence but from the time I find some hard to ignore counter to that...So I am not so sure as I was <_<

What evidence have you seen against it Yata? Coz I think this WoB gives some support for it. 

Quote

Q: Would a feruchemist actively storing identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day. 
 
A: Yes, if you store identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list. 
 

Now, having extra identity may not protect you just coz having less leaves you vulnerable, but I think there's support there

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Extesian said:

What evidence have you seen against it Yata? Coz I think this WoB gives some support for it. 

Now, having extra identity may not protect you just coz having less leaves you vulnerable, but I think there's support there

I didn't see an actual counterproof but but Identity itself isn't a shield is something that (if it matchs) allows Investiture to work with other Investiture well without make a mess.

But when this not happen probably it's meaningless how far the IdentityA is from IdentityB. Beyond a certain range they interfer each other.

Two different beings are already beyond that range and therefore their Identity-Surplus could be meaningless (well except the standard "having extra kinetic Investiture in you")

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/29/2017 at 4:37 PM, AnonymousFan said:

I know what compounding does and I know it's effects, just not sure how it works.

If you want a very simplified version of it, I've got the shorthand:

  • Fill Metalmind with attribute.
  • Allomantically Burn Metalmind.
  • Burning in Allomancy gives you power from Preservation.
  • That power is filtered through the Metalmind into the Feruchemical Attribute.
  • You receive a massive quantity of Feruchemical attribute and store it for later use.

At it's simplest, all Compounding does is take away the time consuming aspect of Feruchemy, giving you days worth of stored attributes in minutes. There is essentially nothing "unique" that a Compounder could do that a normal Feruchemist could not. The big difference is that a Compounder has enough stored attributes to do those things sooner than a normal Feruchemist would. If I wanted to do something cool that needed five months of stored weight, I could do it(five months from now), whereas a Compounder could do it tomorrow.

At it's most complex, you are hacking Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy. And all the potential implications that brings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2017-09-10 at 6:29 PM, The One Who Connects said:

If you want a very simplified version of it, I've got the shorthand:

  • Fill Metalmind with attribute.
  • Allomantically Burn Metalmind.
  • Burning in Allomancy gives you power from Preservation.
  • That power is filtered through the Metalmind into the Feruchemical Attribute.
  • You receive a massive quantity of Feruchemical attribute and store it for later use.

At it's simplest, all Compounding does is take away the time consuming aspect of Feruchemy, giving you days worth of stored attributes in minutes. There is essentially nothing "unique" that a Compounder could do that a normal Feruchemist could not. The big difference is that a Compounder has enough stored attributes to do those things sooner than a normal Feruchemist would. If I wanted to do something cool that needed five months of stored weight, I could do it(five months from now), whereas a Compounder could do it tomorrow.

At it's most complex, you are hacking Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy. And all the potential implications that brings.

If a feuruchemist tapped things like speed and mental speed could they burn and store the metals faster? (Mostly talking about speed not mental speed)

Edited by AnonymousFan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AnonymousFan said:

If a feuruchemist tapped things like speed and mental speed could they burn and store the metals faster? (Mostly talking about speed not mental speed)

Anything they were tapping would be diminishing their stores... How would this help them store faster? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, AnonymousFan said:

If a feuruchemist tapped things like speed and mental speed could they burn and store the metals faster? (Mostly talking about speed not mental speed)

Probably not. Steel speeds up the body, zinc speeds up the mind. These are not relevant to how magic works.

Hovewer, you can do that by tapping nicrosil and strengthening your magic (note that we only know for sure it makes it possible to burn metals faster, we're not sure what greater Feruchemical Strength implies).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

Anything they were tapping would be diminishing their stores... How would this help them store faster? 

If you were tapping speed, you would be going faster. He was thinking that since you are going faster, you could store something else faster.

At which point I have to agree with Oversleep. I don't think that's how the magic works

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

If you were tapping speed, you would be going faster. He was thinking that since you are going faster, you could store something else faster.

At which point I have to agree with Oversleep. I don't think that's how the magic works

I'm obviously of the same opinion, as that possibility never crossed my mind. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...