[OB] Oathbringer Chapter 1-3

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, retrorocket1 said:

I kinda figured dalinar would be the leader and kalidin not the leader but honor's champion. @WhiteLeeopard

Can a splintered Shard have a champion? 

[Darkness]

We've been inferring all along that getting Odium to choose a champion would mean that champion would battle honor's champion to a proxy, but binding outcome. It makes sense that, given we know Tanavast posthumously wanted Odium to choose a champion, Honor would organize a system in which that champion would be made to fight his own. In order for Tanavast to believe that strategy would have a chance at success, he would have to somehow ensure the result of the contest will be binding. Being Honor, I trust that he can arrange things so that can happen even post-his-own-mortem. Having Odium choose a champion doesn't make any logical sense to me if there is no one he/she has to confront. Especially since this whole scenario was (again, only apparently) dreamed up by Honor.

So in conclusion, no. We have no idea if a splintered shard can have a champion, be that Honor, Odium, Harmony, Devotion, whatever. We've never seen it onscreen, and Honor has never mentioned his own champion (to my knowledge), only Odium's, and Odium isn't currently splintered.

[Calderis]

@Darkness I wasn't aware of this inference.

I thought the entire reason for getting Odium to appoint a champion, Was to make him believe he could lose otherwise, while making him vulnerable. 

A champion can be beaten by humanity, and the rules binding Odium to that champion means he would lose as well. Whereas if he doesn't... What can the Knights do to a Shard? 

[Pattern]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

What can the Knights do to a Shard? 

Send him Nightblood - oh wait, that is somehing Hoid would do, since it probably had the destruction of Roshar as consequence. I suppose that won't happen in the first nine books, at least.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Pattern

[WhiteLeeopard]

10 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Send him Nightblood - oh wait, that is somehing Hoid would do, since it probably had the destruction of Roshar as consequence. I suppose that won't happen in the first nine books, at least.

Nightblood isn't strong/powerful/invested enough to destroy Odium. But it could maybe hurt him.

[+eveorjoy]

Dalinar is the headquarters leader. Kaladin is the front line leader. If the KR were the Xmen, Dalinar would be Professor X and Kaladin would be Cyclops. I think Bondsmiths fall into this role naturally with so few in number even though their herald was not King.

Dalinar needs to use Alethi laws and government structure for the time being, but this will change as more knights come. For starters, they already have former slaves with glowing light eyes and it won't be long until women are showing up with various shardweapons and they are not all going to be scholars like Shallan. That will upset the social structure at Urithru. Dalinar will need to adapt to new norms. However, implementing the Alethi codes in Urithru could be a natural progression back to the old laws of the KR. Alethela, Alethkar in the time before the Recreance, is the country that nurtured the warrior knights and seemed to be where the knights would live when not in Urithru. Likely the warrior culture of Alethkar developed from the distance memory of the history.

[Darkness]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Darkness I wasn't aware of this inference.

I thought the entire reason for getting Odium to appoint a champion, Was to make him believe he could lose otherwise, while making him vulnerable. 

A champion can be beaten by humanity, and the rules binding Odium to that champion means he would lose as well. Whereas if he doesn't... What can the Knights do to a Shard? 

my bad then I definitely took for granted in my head canon that we would see both an Odium champion and an Honor champion. But yeah, that's not mentioned officially at all.

[Nathrangking]

Hopefully we will learn more about the creation of a potential champion which will in turn teach us a little about the rules which bind shards.

[redbishop]

3 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Dalinar needs to use Alethi laws and government structure for the time being, but this will change as more knights come. For starters, they already have former slaves with glowing light eyes and it won't be long until women are showing up with various shardweapons and they are not all going to be scholars like Shallan. That will upset the social structure at Urithru. Dalinar will need to adapt to new norms. However, implementing the Alethi codes in Urithru could be a natural progression back to the old laws of the KR. 

It seems to me that the Vorin kingdoms already have a construct in place that will fit this new situation well enough - elevation of Shardbearers.  We saw a darkeyes obtain shards and catapult to the 4th dahn.  I suspect that, in the short term, KRs will be treated equivelently, because there may not need to be any change in the near-term.  Totally speculating, but we may also see higher dahn placement for principles and other ranks within the KR as they re-establish.

I'm interested in how Squires will be regarded.  I would expect dark-eyed squires to rise in nahn, because that seems in keeping with advancing darkeyes via military service.  Likewise, it should be interesting to see what becomes of a lighteyes of a higher dahn who chooses to become a squire, as that will likely occur at some point.

There is always the possibility of a new additional caste system arising that will incorporate both Knights and Squires, although the ardentia and many lighteyes will likely argue against a fundamental change, as they have a great deal to lose by upsetting the existing system too much.

[ccstat]

Two minor thoughts after rereading the Tower scenes from WoK:

Regarding squires, the first evidence for squire abilities comes immediately after Kaladin swears his second ideal. Teft watches Kaladin land on the other side of the chasm, and notices "his wounded arm didn't seem to hurt as much as it should." That's a pretty clear indication of how soon a KR can empower squires, at least with passive abilities like healing.

Dalinar's apparent habit of acquiring talented people and paying the price they name adds extra dimensions to the way he buys the bridgemen from Sadeas with Oathbringer. The exchanges are framed differently, especially in how Dalinar thinks of them (his purchase of Kaladin and company being explicitly made in gratitude, rather than in expectation of further service) but the parallels are unavoidable. I'm interested in reanalyzing Dalinar's conscious and subconscious motivations in light of what we'll learn from the flashbacks.

[Calderis]

56 minutes ago, ccstat said:

Regarding squires, the first evidence for squire abilities comes immediately after Kaladin swears his second ideal. Teft watches Kaladin land on the other side of the chasm, and notices "his wounded arm didn't seem to hurt as much as it should." That's a pretty clear indication of how soon a KR can empower squires, at least with passive abilities like healing.

Yep. And Skar was fighting on a foot that walking on should have crippled him. 

That's not suspicious at all. 

[+eveorjoy]

It's officially less than a day to the next three chapters. It's Oathbringer Chapters 4-6 eve. 

[OathKeeper]

I haven't seen any speculation about who the archer in black is. Sorry if it's out there and I've missed it. Any chance he's someone we've seen already? Or someone whose name we've read?

I think if he was just another member of Dalinar's elite squad, Brandon would have given us a name for him. That said, I can't come up with a theory that I actually believe is likely. 

[maxal]

56 minutes ago, OathKeeper said:

I haven't seen any speculation about who the archer in black is. Sorry if it's out there and I've missed it. Any chance he's someone we've seen already? Or someone whose name we've read?

I think if he was just another member of Dalinar's elite squad, Brandon would have given us a name for him. That said, I can't come up with a theory that I actually believe is likely. 

The archer is Teleb.

[Toaster Retribution]

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

The archer is Teleb.

May he rest in peace.

[OathKeeper]

Geez that OathKeeper...what a newb am I right?

[Michael Portz]

I was a bit surprised about the number of people complaining about the not top-of-the-notch writing in the first chapters.

Don't you think, you underestimate Brandon and the importance of "Point of View" for him? A point of view is per definition subjective to the person holding it. The language used to transport what is going on is subjective to the person and the current circumstances.

If there is a change in the language used for a certain POV, then it has to do with a change in the person or with a change in the circumstances.

The emerging question is: What is going on, that the language changed?

[Pattern]

4 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

The emerging question is: What is going on, that the language changed?

I guess in a few hours we will see whether the style will change with the POV. But perhaps the quick pace in the first three chapters is a result of trimming the book under 500k words.

[king of nowhere]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

The archer is Teleb.

In a previous version of the chapter, he was referred to as Teleb, and the same name identified one of dalinar's officers who died either at the tower or at narak, I'm not sure. But this final version doesn't have the name, so it is slightly possible that brandon has decided to retcon it and give the archer another identity. Not very likely, but still possible

[WhiteLeeopard]

I think Tor are secret Odium agents, practicing for Herald time by releasing the chapters at a time when most of the world is awake and constantly looking at the clock.

[Musica]

Do we know when exactly today the chapters are supposed to be released?

 

[Pattern]

NOW

[Advanthera]

Here we go!

[The One Who Connects]

On 8/29/2017 at 9:51 AM, Calderis said:

And why is everyone surprised by the squires losing abilities by distance? The Nahel bond itself requires proximity between the Radiant and spren. I think it just means there's a Cognitive element to the bond as well as spiritual.

This makes me wonder if Dalinar's Squires(if he has any in the future) will be limited by distance, given that Dalinar isn't limited by distance from his Spren.

On 8/29/2017 at 10:02 AM, ccstat said:

I am curious, though, where the 18 comes from. That doesn't really fit with our 10-obsessive Rosharans.

Your "reasonable estimate of 1,000 meters high" gave me an idea. 1000 is 10*10*10. There's no reasonable way to split 10 by 18 into "nicer" numbers, so perhaps they just decided the height is what needed to be a 10-centric number.

Or this is Brandon being funny and we'll think it's actually significant that we have 10(Honor) by 18( 9(Odium) * 2(?Cultivation?) ).

On 8/29/2017 at 11:15 AM, ccstat said:

Thanks for the link. I'd missed that thread. The quote referenced there (from one of the Unfettered flashbacks) lists the same three conquests but in a different order: Shin, Sunmaker, Hierocracy, rather than Shin, Hierocracy, Sunmaker. I'm going to conclude that we haven't learned anything about chronology yet.

The Sunmaker is on record for having toppled the Hierocracy.

Quote

War of Loss

Main article: War of Loss

Before the Hierocracy could spread to western Roshar, the Hierocracy became embroiled in the War of Loss, a conflict spearheaded by the man later known as the Sunmaker.^[2] The Sunmaker united together the ten princedoms of Alethkar for the first time since the fall of Alethela into one nation.^[8] It is unknown if any other factions joined them, but working together the Alethi forces fought the Hierocracy in truly epic battles, whose like has not been seen on Roshar since then.^[9] The Sunmaker managed to cast down the Hierocracy.^[2] Its fall led to much chaos and destruction, many eastern cities were sacked and destroyed, with the notable exception of Kholinar.^[10]

This description implies that the Sunmaker uniting the Highprincedoms happened during the Hierocracy. Concurrent events, especially ones as intertwined as these two, are.. difficult to put in a solid "which came first" order.

The Sunmaker unified the Highprinces to battle the Hierocracy, so his conquest could be considered "first" since the massive battles of the Hierocracy happened after he united them. His conquest could be considered "second" since he ended the Hierocracy. It depends on the perspective of who wrote the histories, and intertwined events are bound to have conflicting reports, even with history being written by the victor.

I think the thing to note is that the Shin Invasions are ordered first either way. Brandon puts the Hierocracy at about 700ish years before the books, and my/our estimates on here put the Recreance at 2200-2500 years before the books. I think Shin invasions would be during a time without the KR, so there's a good chunk of time for it to have happened.

On 8/29/2017 at 5:31 PM, the_archduke said:

Also interesting was that Dalinar was lamenting losing so many highlords.  He indicates that he only has so many men of that rank.  Apparently he can't just promote men of lower dahn.  How do people move up in dahn?

WhiteLeeopard is more than likely right that it's primarily a matter of trust. Highlords are 3rd Dahn, making them higher rank than Shardbearers & Battalionlords(4th Dahn) and equal rank to Renarin(3rd). Given the "assassin" debacle with Elhokar in book 1&2, would you promote people you previously suspected of high treason(attempted assassination of the King) to high ranks?

But to actually answer your question, people can be promoted to higher Nahn/Dahn. Getting assigned to be a citylord for instance implies a certain rank, so you would gain that Dahn with the job. Darkeyed soldiers can rise in Nahn by getting promotions in the Alethi military, etc..

I get the sense that Highlord isn't as.. defined as say "Highprince," "Citylord," or "Captain." Who/What/Where are they gonna be Highlord of? Captain of 200 men, Citylord of Hearthstone, Highprince of "insert name's" Princedom, etc...

On 8/31/2017 at 8:47 AM, Who Sharded? said:

Sorry if this was already discussed, but does anyone else think that Dalinar will NOT be a prologue POV?  Instead we will see his version of the night of assassination later on in Oathbringer.  But since he's drunk it will be shorter and not as revealing as the other prologues.

We know Eshonai's Prologue PoV takes place earlier than Szeth/Jasnah's did, so Dalinar's could be an early entry too, maybe discussing with Gavilar and Sadeas before they go off to: get drunk/meet with Eshonai/to disguise as Gavilar.

On 8/31/2017 at 7:11 AM, Ciridae said:

I like this idea a lot, but the champion has all nine unmade as shadows, so I think it's not just about the thrill, though that would probably be a big part of it. 

Maybe the Thrill is the "gateway drug," to coin a poor analogy. Once you get consumed by the Thrill, you start to.. connect with the others. Being "bonded" in some way to all 9 Unmade would make you an dangerous individual, likely giving you access to some impressive powers. Also, if we do have said proto-champion be one of the PoV cast, that could be our in for learning about the other Unmade, the way we got casual Hemalurgy tidbits from Ruin's Champion in HoA.

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Your "reasonable estimate of 1,000 meters high" gave me an idea. 1000 is 10*10*10. There's no reasonable way to split 10 by 18 into "nicer" numbers, so perhaps they just decided the height is what needed to be a 10-centric number.

Or this is Brandon being funny and we'll think it's actually significant that we have 10(Honor) by 18( 9(Odium) * 2(?Cultivation?) ).

Don't we know all Shards have a number? 10 for Honor, 9 for Odium, 16 for Preservation, 5 for Endowment. Could be 8 is Cultivation. Honor+Cultivation does have a certain simplicity for KR headquarters.