[OB] Oathbringer Chapter 1-3

[Ciridae]

9 hours ago, maxal said:

What if once you reach this state, you end up bonding Nearghoul, thus accessing surges, Shardplate, Shardblade, but of a bad kind.

I like this idea a lot, but the champion has all nine unmade as shadows, so I think it's not just about the thrill, though that would probably be a big part of it. 

As @Darkness said, it would be odd if it came down to only one of the nine. 

But the core of the idea is great, I don't remember seeing any speculation on the role of the unmade in relation to the champion so far. Why are they shown as shadows of the champion? They could just as well have been depicted as forms watching or supporting him or her, but instead they for some reason stem from the the figure.

[+ElephantEarwax]

42 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I like this idea a lot, but the champion has all nine unmade as shadows, so I think it's not just about the thrill, though that would probably be a big part of it. 

As @Darkness said, it would be odd if it came down to only one of the nine. 

But the core of the idea is great, I don't remember seeing any speculation on the role of the unmade in relation to the champion so far. Why are they shown as shadows of the champion? They could just as well have been depicted as forms watching or supporting him or her, but instead they for some reason stem from the the figure.

That's an odd thought, would evil shardplate feed on the voidlight stuff possibly?

[Who Sharded?]

Sorry if this was already discussed, but does anyone else think that Dalinar will NOT be a prologue POV?  Instead we will see his version of the night of assassination later on in Oathbringer.  But since he's drunk it will be shorter and not as revealing as the other prologues.

[PunSpren]

34 minutes ago, Who Sharded? said:

Sorry if this was already discussed, but does anyone else think that Dalinar will NOT be a prologue POV?  Instead we will see his version of the night of assassination later on in Oathbringer.  But since he's drunk it will be shorter and not as revealing as the other prologues.

I would be very surprised, He was so drunk he couldn't fight, not a whole lot of information to be gained from there I think.

[Amanuensis]

47 minutes ago, Who Sharded? said:

 

Sorry if this was already discussed, but does anyone else think that Dalinar will NOT be a prologue POV?  Instead we will see his version of the night of assassination later on in Oathbringer.  But since he's drunk it will be shorter and not as revealing as the other prologues.

11 minutes ago, PunSpren said:

I would be very surprised, He was so drunk he couldn't fight, not a whole lot of information to be gained from there I think.

I don't think it'll be a Prologue, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw it in a flashback. Eshonai's Prologue begins quite a ways before the actual ceremony / assassination. We very well could see what happened before / as Dalinar was getting ridiculously drunk. I wouldn't even be surprised of something explicitly happened to drive him that far, and that said thing could be revealing.

[ccstat]

So, thinking about squires...

We know that Windrunners had more squires than other orders, but most of the orders had some. We can only speculate which orders didn't have any (though I suspect the Bondsmiths for one). But the important question I have is whether the Lightweavers went in for squires? Because Kaladin isn't the only current radiant with a loyal following, or with a follower missing a body part. Shallan has her crew of former deserters, including a certain one-eyed gambler.

So will Gaz pull a Lopen and get his depth perception back?

Edited August 31, 2017 by ccstat

[Nymeros]

^Has probably doesn't the same self perception as Lopen as being whole man. I doubt he would regrow his eye just as Kaladin couldn't heal himself of his brand.

And yeah, WoR seemed like obvious setup for Shallan to have her own crew of squires.

[Bcknight2]

2 hours ago, ccstat said:

So, thinking about squires...

We know that Windrunners had more squires than other orders, but most of the orders had some. We can only speculate which orders didn't have any (though I suspect the Bondsmiths for one). But the important question I have is whether the Lightweavers went in for squires? Because Kaladin isn't the only current radiant with a loyal following, or with a follower missing a body part. Shallan has her crew of former deserters, including a certain one-eyed gambler.

So will Gaz pull a Lopen and get his depth perception back?

As far as Shallan's followers becoming her squires, I think it would be possible, but their relationship to Shallan would probably need to change, fundamentally.

As of WoR Gaz and the other deserters were essentially her bodyguards.

Bridge Four isn't made up of people who are simply following Kaladin's orders. It's made up of people who are emulating Kaladin, following in his footsteps.

I'd consider it far more likely for Shallan's research assistants to become her "squires" than her bodyguards.

 

Edit: Though, I suppose Gaz is closer to being her research assistant than the other deserters, since he did track down that copy of Words of Radiance for her...

Edited August 31, 2017 by Bcknight2

[JoyBlu]

I just finished reading all 12 pages of comments in the thread! (I took me three days) They have been so thought-provoking.  Here are some of my thoughts.

Writing Quality

@vividox Initially when I read the Eshoni’s Prologue I was very disappointed with the writing.  After re-reading Szeth’s & Jasnah’s prologues, I realized that all of Eshoni’s POVs are more simple.  The descriptions don’t include random spren hanging out.  Eshoni doesn’t seem to notice the Roshar spren as often – she is too busy attuning her rhythms. Which happen to be called the same names of the spren.  Example Rhythm of Awe and awespren.  – So how are the Rhythms connected to the corresponding spren? I want to go back and reread all of Eshoni’s POVs together to see if they are all the same style.  Has anyone does this?  I’m thinking there is a different intentional rhythm to her writing.  They were interspersed before and so I’m guessing I didn’t notice it. I loved the clues that were dropped in the Prologue too.  5 People meeting with Gavilar.  Things like that.

I felt that Chapter 1) Broken & Divided was familiar because it was a vision we had seen before and that the previous visions also had a distinct style that set the visions apart from Brandon’s normal Stomlight prose. I felt that after the vision ended, the writing was back to normal again. But I loved the surprise ending of the vision. Thanks to @hypatia for pointing out the sun/shin/shadow connections. You need some light to make shadows. The sun makes the shadows. You can't have the shadows without the sun.  Reminds me of Ruin & Preservation

 

On 8/29/2017 at 0:03 PM, hypatia said:

Without the context the obvious answer for something " brilliant, golden, but terrible, bathing everything in heat" would be the sun. This connect also with the Unmade seen as shadows.

Aren't the Shin worshiping the sun?

 

I felt that Chapter 2) One Problem Solved was basically a recap of what we needed to be reminded.  Just the facts with some humor thrown in. Necessary stuff -- that was likely trimmed as @frozndevl already said

On 8/29/2017 at 4:51 PM, frozndevl said:

I know that the entire book is all sorts of huge, so I wonder if things were trimmed that weren't crucial to the story, but added to the 'quality" so to speak.

 

I was really impressed with Chapter 3) Momentum.  This was my first time reading it and I adored the quality of writing and the allusion with the horse.  Having just reread Szeth’s prologue, I was struck by the following lines.

 

Quote

Nearby, the fallen brightlord groaned softly. “Why…” the man said from within his helm. “Why us?”

“Don’t know,” Dalinar said, tossing the poleaxe back to Dym.

“You… you don’t know?” the dying man said.

“My brother chooses,” Dalinar said. “I just go where he points me.”

--Oathbringer Chapter 3

I just wish that brightlord Yezriar had responded to Dalinar with "That makes no sense!"

But even now Dalinar is still going where his brother is pointing him . . . . . .

Quote

The king coughed.  "You can tell . . . Thaidakar . . .that he's too late . . . ."

"I don't know who that is," Szeth said, standing, his words slurring from his broken jaw.  He held his hand to the side, resummoning his Shardblade. 

The king frowned.  'Then who . . .?  Restares? Sadeas? I never thought . . ."

"My masters are the Parshendi, " Szeth said.

"The Parshendi"?  That makes no sense. "Gavilar coughed, hand quivering, reaching toward his chest and fumbling at a pocket.  He pulled out a small crystalline sphere tied to a chain.  "You must take this.  They must not get it."  He seemed dazed.  "Tell . . . tell my brother . . . he must find the most important words a man can say . . . ."

--Way of Kings Prologue

 

The Blackthorn got his name from being shot with Black Arrows!  @Musica had me cracking up

On 8/29/2017 at 3:35 PM, Musica said:

Guess now we know where he got his name from *snicker*

Sadeas: "You look like a thornbush."

Dalinar: "a black thornbush."

Sadeas: "our esteemed commander, the thorn in our enemies' side. I thereby declare you the Blackthorn!"

Good thing those arrows were black lol

 

 

So after finishing Chapter 3 I got a sick feeling in my stomach that I am not going to like the young Dalinar in this book.  Brandon Sanderson has a son named Dallin, right? So he can't make Dalinar be too horrible. I mean he named one of them after the other -- right?  Brandon Sanderson made sure we got to know Shallan before we found out that she was double murderer.  That made her more understandable.  What in Dalinar's past is going to come out in Oathbringer that will make us cringe?  As evidenced the three posts, below, I'm not the only one who is concerned that the Dalinar I adore is seriously flawed.

On 8/29/2017 at 7:04 PM, maxal said:

Chapter 3

Ah young arrogant Dalinar. I have commented on him, so here I'll merely say: he was clueless. He does not know why he is attacking and the people he is killing do not understand why. I do not need more justification as to how wrong Gavilar has been with his war.

Gavilar's armies were also set on looting and raping women: Dalinar stopped them. A glimmer of the man he will eventually be: a monster, but not a rapist. There is that.

 

On 8/29/2017 at 8:44 PM, Calderis said:

He stopped them for a completely selfish reason. There's no positive in that. If the new conscripted had ask to take part in the debauchery he would have let him. He was paying a price and nothing more. 

There's no redeeming qualities shown in young Dalinar. The Thrill made him a sociopath. 

 

On 8/29/2017 at 9:59 PM, Pattern said:

The Thrill made him a junkie in the first place. With all consequences. In WoK and WoR, the Thrill was not described as crass as in the flashback: "It was a fire that filled the pit within"..."Dalinar smiled. Then the smile became a toothy grin". That looks a lot like strong drug addiction.

We know from WoR that Dalinar has a lot of scars that should have diminished his agility significantly. Did the Thrill help him ignoring the wounds and help with the healing, like Stormlight would have done? Well, stormlight heals wounds without scars (as long as you don't think the scars a vital part of your identity), so there is a difference. There is a theory that Dalinar used small amounts of Stormlight before. Now I think he could have used voidlight, somehow drawn from Nergaoul while being under the Thrill.

 

After reading the posts in this thread, I am now convinced that the Thrill -- or whatever is behind the thrill --  Nergaoul  -- is the influence behind Dalinar's deplorable behavior that I am steadying myself to discover in Oathbringer.  @Bcknight2 has almost convinced me that the eyes Dalinar sees at the end of his vision do not belong to a specific person but to Nergaoul and whoever is under his influence. The likelihood that Dalinar will know the person who ends up under the influence of the Thrill is very plausible.

 

On 8/30/2017 at 6:06 AM, Bcknight2 said:

Another thing... a lot of people seem to be freaking out about how Odium's champion must be someone Dalinar knows because of this paragraph:

This doesn't read, to me, like him recognizing a person, it seems more like him recognizing an emotion/feeling or something else...

Spoilers for the flashback chapters in Unfettered 2:

  Hide contents

What this really reminded me of is the fourth flashback chapter in unfettered when Dalinar recognizes the Thrill in his opponent's eyes:

I think this makes way more sense, Dalinar recognizes the Thrill in Odium's champion. Perhaps he's finally realizing that the Thrill is OF Odium and that all of Alethkar has been driven/influenced heavily by the enemy.

 

 

 

 

Now a few thoughts on Color & Numbers

On 8/29/2017 at 1:14 PM, What's a Seawolf? said:

To tie the gold light/Odium discussion into one of my favorite theories, what if that scene is made to represent Odium blocking the Radiants Path to the Spirit Realm?

The theory goes that the secret that broke the Knights Radiant is the discovery that when KR's die they are forced to go to Braize, just like the Heralds.

The scene in Chp 1 COULD be symbolic of that.  Odium and the Unmade standing guard to block the KR's path to peace after death.

-- This kinda goes with the Shin worshiping the Sun theory mentioned above.

 

On 8/29/2017 at 0:49 PM, redbishop said:

Kind of a consolidation, but perhaps there is a numeric link that incorporates 8-9-10.  Unrepentent spitballing follows.

10 - Honor's number.  Rosharan system.  Number of Heralds and Orders.

9 - Odium's Number.  Braize.  The Unmade.

8 - Perhaps Cultivation's number?  Number of Orders in the Outer ring of the Double-Eye of the Almighty.  When combined with 10 (Honor), the number of levels in Uritheru.

 

@redbishop & @What's a Seawolf? I loved your posts.  I want to do a reread of WoK & WoR and watch for numbers & colors.  Has alyone already done this? I know in Jasnah's prologue there are 9 statues -- when there is supposed to be ten -- and I'm guessing there are many more references to support your theory.  I have noticed colors before, -- especially in WarBreaker but now I feel the need to highlight all of them -- in their own colors -- in my copies so they are easy to identify!

 

OK -- now here are a few posts I feel the need to respond to.

On 8/29/2017 at 3:23 PM, Jaconis said:

Yes, I agree. It seems completely reasonable to me. Lots of things seem to be fading with time here. Stormlight from gemstones, Kaladin's light eyes after the Third Ideal, just to name a couple. 

I really like this theory that things are fading without the ability to recharge the Gemstones.  Will the Everstorm recharge the gemstones and restore stormlight? Or will the Everstorm be made of a different kind of power that won't recharge them?  Or recharge them with a different kind of light? A darker light?  Once Kaladin gains back stormlight will his squires be able to draw from him -- no matter the distance?

 

On 8/29/2017 at 4:47 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

He is going to Urithiru. And he might become Sadeas successor as highprince.

I completely agree with @Toaster Retribution  I believe Amaram will pull an Amalickiah and marry Ialai and become a highprince, taking Sadeas's place.  Sadea's death will be in vain, and Ialai will have more reason for animosity towards Dalinar and all the KR. I agree with  @SLNC that Sadeas's death only creates more problems.  But what will happen the the Oathbringer Sword that was thrown out the window? I haven't seen much speculation on that.  I think Ialai will live.  We still don't know why exactly Jasnah was plotting the murder of Elkohar's wife.  For some reason I seem to think that the Queen and Ialai have a relationship, but I don't have any evidence now as to why I think that. I am also looking for people that Dalinar's wife would have know.  Ialai would know things about Shhshshshsh that Dalinar would not remember now. I'm expecting this book to reveal more about her.

 

On 8/29/2017 at 11:31 PM, SLNC said:

Everyone, except Dalinar, seems to agree, that Sadeas death is not something to mourn about. I agree...

...but I don't think it solves any problems. The mention of Ialai actually fortified that idea for me. She will be out for blood. And she will continue whatever Torol started. I'm sure, that she will be convinced, that Dalinar ordered Sadeas to be killed and in turn will try to undermine his efforts of achieving unity and might even try to kill him, as we know, she does have assassins. In the end, nothing will have changed and Sadeas murder by the hands of Adolin was in vain.

I desperately hope, that Adolin doesn't begin to think, that everything can be solved with murders and assassinations, but I can see him beginning to plot to murder Ialai, just to finish, what he started. Or maybe he just snaps again. We don't know.

Ialai also might demand satisfaction and Dalinar will be forced to punish Adolin for the "greater good". But Adolin might understand, that since he also killed Sadeas for the "greater good", by keeping his father secure, who fights for the "greater good"... (Sorry for the snark, but the more I think about it, the more I am shaking my head, about how damnation stupid Adolin was in killing Sadeas. I know why he did it and I understand it and I agree about saying good riddance to Sadeas, but I still can't get over the stupidity of it. It just complicated many, many things for some short-term satisfaction.)

 

 

Another great catch that I missed

On 8/29/2017 at 5:22 PM, Knotai said:

I'm definitely intrigued by May as a possible Radiant/secret society member--I think she'll return, as Brandon doesn't usually name-drop characters and leave them in Jordanian fashion. Also, it's probably nothing, but her name seems surprisingly un-Alethi, especially for a daughter of a highprince.

Great Observation.  I'll watch for May.

 

23 hours ago, dionysus said:

I don't have much to add to the impressions already submitted. I did have a different reaction to the chapter headings.

"I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist."

My first reaction that the simplest thing that would cause those three reactions would be if the record was written by a man. As to the identify of that man, my leading candidates would be the Sunmaker or one of the male main characters.

@dionysus  I thought about "Oathbringer" being penned by a woman but possibly dictated by a man.  If Oathbringer is a book or a journal, then it is likely written by a woman.  If a man was writing it, many would indeed find it threatening.  Perhaps a woman will bond with the Oathbringer sword next and this is her writings.  Maybe Oathbringer previously belonged to a woman.  (possible Shhshshshshsh).  I'm really wanting to learn more about that woman. I also liked the theory someone posted about how Oathbringer could be written by a Kohlin ancestor.

 

Its been fun to collect my thoughts and ramble

@axcellence  Was that enough paragraphs for you? 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by JoyBlu
linked @ I quoted

[Toaster Retribution]

@JoyBlu I like your thought about similarities between spren and rythms. I also admire you for reading through these 12 pages. 

Oh, and the Everstorm most likely contains Odiums investiture. I don't know if we have a name for that, but I guess it is what fuels Voidbinding.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[vividox]

27 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

I just finished reading all 12 pages of comments in the thread! (I took me three days) They have been so thought-provoking.  Here are some of my thoughts.

Writing Quality

@vividox Initially when I read the Eshoni’s Prologue I was very disappointed with the writing.  After re-reading Szeth’s & Jasnah’s prologues, I realized that all of Eshoni’s POVs are more simple.  The descriptions don’t include random spren hanging out.  Eshoni doesn’t seem to notice the Roshar spren as often – she is too busy attuning her rhythms. Which happen to be called the same names of the spren.  Example Rhythm of Awe and awespren.  – So how are the Rhythms connected to the corresponding spren? I want to go back and reread all of Eshoni’s POVs together to see if they are all the same style.  Has anyone does this?  I’m thinking there is a different intentional rhythm to her writing.  They were interspersed before and so I’m guessing I didn’t notice it. I loved the clues that were dropped in the Prologue too.  5 People meeting with Gavilar.  Things like that.

I felt that Chapter 1) Broken & Divided was familiar because it was a vision we had seen before and that the previous visions also had a distinct style that set the visions apart from Brandon’s normal Stomlight prose. I felt that after the vision ended, the writing was back to normal again. But I loved the surprise ending of the vision.

 

My reaction was actually flip-flopped. I liked the Prologue and then felt like the first few chapters dipped in quality. And - just for clarification - I don't mean to poo-poo on the writing quality with my comment. I just meant it read more like a Young Adult novel than a Adult Fantasy novel in several places. Brandon isn't necessarily a big prose guy in the first place, and I have no problem with that, but there were several parts in the first few chapters that seemed jarringly simplistic to me.

[The Technovore]

On 8/29/2017 at 9:02 AM, ccstat said:

Re: Dalinar's authority, it is significant that he doesn't even pretend that the appointments come from Elhokar. Maybe when they announce it they'll do it in the king's name, but for now he doesn't say, "I'll have Elhokar appoint you to the post," he says "I'm naming you for the position." This is a big shift for the man who swore to himself never to take the kingship.

This struck me pretty powerfully too. He seems to have accepted that he's probably going to end up being the Rosharan equivalent of TLR by the end of this. He's definitely the true king of Alethkar, and it seems that he's done pretending he's not. 

The familiarity that Dalinar saw in the champion (I'm going with the assumption that it is, indeed, the champion) also struck me and made me immediately think of Adolin. What if the murder of Sadeas has started Adolin on a dark path? What if he ends up alienating himself from the rest, going down a darker and darker path, until Odium's like "hey, want a ton of power?" and he's like "Sure."

Boom. Tragic turn to the dark side. The worst part is that if this does happen, Adolin will probably accept the power so he can "protect" his loved ones, a la Anakin Skywalker.

Also, can I just say that this whole "episodical releasing" thing is awesome? It's like a book club now! 

 

EDIT:

I'd also like to say that the paragraph addressing the squires was probably the most jarring thing Sanderson's ever given me. Sure, as Sharders, we all knew about that. Sure, for us Sharders, that's nothing but a nice confirmation. But for the people who aren't Sharders, who are just everyday, casual readers, that's going come as a major let down. I mean, you had an awesome, dramatic cliffhanger scene where Lopen started glowing, then in the next book, the fact that he has BOTH arms is addressed in just a couple simple sentences? I mean... it seems like the whole "squires" concept is a bit more important than 2-4 sentences glossing over it in the first chapter. But I'm willing to forgive it. I mean, come on, it's Sanderson people! 

Edited August 31, 2017 by The Technovore

[+Wax]

1 hour ago, JoyBlu said:

Its been fun to collect my thoughts and ramble

@axcellence  Was that enough paragraphs for you? 

Great stuff, Kudos.  I read most of your post.  I guess listening to audiobooks has left me devoid of the patience required.

You can have as many paragraphs as you want.  My main point is that once anyone's paragraph hits 10 lines in length - they should just break it up and continue on the same idea from the next paragraph. Helps make it more visually appealing to read.

[dvoraen]

One thing I will say in passing is that with the confirmation of the Unmade numbering nine, you can probably categorize them in groups of three: Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual forms of destruction.

 

Physical - Yelig'nar, Re'Shephir, ???

Cognitive - Sja'anat? Dai'gonarthis? Nergaoul?

Spiritual - Moelach, ???, ???

[JoyBlu]

37 minutes ago, vividox said:

My reaction was actually flip-flopped. I liked the Prologue and then felt like the first few chapters dipped in quality. And - just for clarification - I don't mean to poo-poo on the writing quality with my comment. I just meant it read more like a Young Adult novel than a Adult Fantasy novel in several places. Brandon isn't necessarily a big prose guy in the first place, and I have no problem with that, but there were several parts in the first few chapters that seemed jarringly simplistic to me.

I agree with your assessment that the first two chapters read more like a Young Adult novel. That is a good way to describe it. I enjoyed reading all the responses your post generated. But that being said, I think I pulled an all-nighter finishing The Rithmatist, and I recently finished Steelheart in a day.  Brandon Sanderson's Young Adult novels are great and hard to put down. I did feel that Chapters 1 & 2 read quickly though.  Similar to my recent experience with Steehleart.  But maybe they only read quickly because I've been anticipating them for such a long time.  Its like when you eat too much too food on Thanksgiving.  I devoured the chapters! I had my appetizer!  Please bring my me meal.  I'm looking forward to November.  (And not for Thanksgiving!) #Oathvember @Toaster Retribution

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, vividox said:

My reaction was actually flip-flopped. I liked the Prologue and then felt like the first few chapters dipped in quality. And - just for clarification - I don't mean to poo-poo on the writing quality with my comment. I just meant it read more like a Young Adult novel than a Adult Fantasy novel in several places. Brandon isn't necessarily a big prose guy in the first place, and I have no problem with that, but there were several parts in the first few chapters that seemed jarringly simplistic to me.

Same. Must say, I enjoyed the Prologue (much more than Jasnah's though much less than Szeths).

What threw me there is just the sheer randomness of the Parshendi stumbling across Szeth juuussst before the king happened to outline his plan to Eshonai. Its too much and the assasination was too last minute....instead of talking to the king the 5  immediately vote to kill and bring war on their people? What about the others in the kings meeting? It left a bad taste.

 

I do agree with the first 3. The writing was subpar compared to WoK and WoR. 

 

I enjoyed Kaladin appointing lieutenants, bridge 4 walking around getting used to Dalinars camp and their new position, trying on their new uniforms, and getting their tattoos...it made Dalinars plan seen feasible and realistic.

Here, we would learn of that transition from slaves to Kingsgaurd in a few lines.

I cannot believe that one of Dalinars men told him he should be sticking his sword in the "squishy parts." This from a hardened professional killer.

[1stBondsmith]

I know a lot of professional killers with clean tongues, quick wits and even some childish language intended to highlight humor. It is a huge battlefield relief. That quote is something I would say for sure.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

I know a lot of professional killers with clean tongues, quick wits and even some childish language intended to highlight humor. It is a huge battlefield relief. That quote is something I would say for sure.

I like you 

[Necessary Eagle]

I think the... unevenness of writing in the first chapter or two was because Brandon was squeezing in a lot of exposition for readers who need to be reminded of what happened in WoK and WoR. So hopefully it shouldn't be a problem for most of the rest of the book.

[+ElephantEarwax]

2 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

I know a lot of professional killers with clean tongues, quick wits and even some childish language intended to highlight humor. It is a huge battlefield relief. That quote is something I would say for sure.

I'm worried that you know a lot of killers in the first place...

[Jaconis]

49 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

I think the... unevenness of writing in the first chapter or two was because Brandon was squeezing in a lot of exposition for readers who need to be reminded of what happened in WoK and WoR. So hopefully it shouldn't be a problem for most of the rest of the book.

That's been what I've been saying. Look at the beginning of all of Sanderson's other sequels (and not just his). They are all like this. I think the problem is that people are expecting it feel like the end of WoR, which it can't possibly be. 

The beta readers, who are not all die hard fans, all seemed to love the book, so I'm not worried. 

[Calderis]

33 minutes ago, ElephantEarwax said:

I'm worried that you know a lot of killers in the first place...

Not uncommon in the military. 

[+ElephantEarwax]

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Not uncommon in the military. 

Ahh. I needed that context...

[maxal]

17 hours ago, Darkness said:

I dont feel like we're reading the same book Maxal. Everybody loves Renarin? Not even close! Zahel feels obvious pride and affection for him and Adolin loves him (just as Renarin loves Adolin), but Dalinar didn't seem to know what to do with him until he came out as a Truthwatcher. From the way Renarin acted around Dalinar, it was clear to me that Renarin knows his father thinks of him as less capable than Adolin, and true or not, that hurts.

Outside of his family, everyone in high Alethi society thinks of him as a cripple, weird, or useless, that was evidenced when Adolin overheard his 'friends' talking about it in the warcamps. Sadeas is the only one who lays it out plain to the Kholins, but Renarin is very aware of how people regard him. He's an outsider to his own society, and he said so when he went to join bridge 4.

I think your annoyance of Renarin and love of Adolin may be giving you a bias in this case. It certainly isn't any kind of personality flaw, but I guess just like in real life, you'll like some people while others dont, and vise versa.

Regarding Odium's champion, I like the idea, but I think it's a little bit too stripped down. There are nine Unmade, and even though we know some aren't as sapient, and some aren't as active in the living host, I would be very surprised if the only prerequisite to being champion was being attuned to just one of the nine unmade. And there is still the minor detail that Tanavast said, "perhaps you can get him to choose a champion" (can't actually remember if he said choose or pick, but still...), which implies a cognizant decision by Odium.

Then who hates Renarin? Who has openly despised him, shunned him, be mean to him? Not many people, not when compared to how many people he meets who just loves him: Zahel, Hoid, Kaladin, Bridge 4. I can't find one single instance where other people actively attempt at making Renarin ill-at-ease. And while yes, Adolin heard some girls say they found Renarin's way of talking unsettling, Acrobacar is said to be fond of him. If Renarin is thought nothing more than a useless cripple, then I did not find the story conveyed it quite well as everyone who matters in it just finds him endearing.

We may have a very different reading of the Dalinar/Renarin interactions because I read a lot of love into those, a lot of care and yes I did read the father not sure what to do with his son, but it never carried any over-bearing nor dismissive streak. Dalinar seems to genuinely want Renarin to find his place, though he is just not sure how to help him. My thoughts are, in wanting to help, Dalinar actually hinder him. He tried to protect him, but by doing so he made him feel useless. 

I don't think my annoyance with Renarin is tied to my love of Adolin: I have try to give more thought to see if it weren't the case. It is true I am annoyed at how everyone seems to readily love Renarin while the same people genuinely dislike Adolin, but the aspects of Renarin's character which bothers me the most has nothing to do with it. I find his defeatism attitude to be hard to enjoy nor relate to. I mean, there are many readers who are annoyed at Kaladin for being depressed, in similar ways, I grow annoyed of Renarin when he says "I can't" before having even started.

To everyone about the Champion idea: I agree the theory is nowhere perfect and it is true Honor said Odium has the ability to choose. I was playing on the idea Honor may not know how this choice is being made. He may not know everything. The way it was phrased, my understanding has always been: there hasn't always been a Champion. Is it because Odium was prevented from choosing one or was it because nobody suitable arose? Odium may only be able to influence a wide array of people waiting for one to fall. Anyway, it's just an idea, it certainly is not perfect

[Nymeros]

 

3 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

I think the... unevenness of writing in the first chapter or two was because Brandon was squeezing in a lot of exposition for readers who need to be reminded of what happened in WoK and WoR. So hopefully it shouldn't be a problem for most of the rest of the book.

Hopefully not. I know Brandon is an experienced and technically skilled dude (hell, I've listened to pretty much all his writing lectures since discovering him) so while I'm not big on the fast paced telling and not showing of the Bridge 4 developments and warcamp movements, I don't expect it to continue. Just a bit lackluster for an opening to what should be a very epic book.