[OB] Oathbringer Chapter 1-3

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The part of the sample chapters that I found the least interesting by far was the light and "champion". I am doubtful the vision showed the champion himself, at least the current one. If it was, I am almost certain it was not someone Dalinar knows. I don't know if the vision came from Honor, Cultivation or Odium, could be any of them. I don't know if the vision was sent from the past or the present. But for some reason none of these questions really engage me. Probably because I'm nearly sure it wasn't a person, at least not from the present, and that's what the discussion is focusing on. I got more the impression it was familiar because of the influence Dalinar has had from Odium/unmade in the past.

This is a replay of one the visions Dalinar has already experienced in "The Way of Kings", so you know exactly what it is.

The visions come from Honor by way of the Stormfather. Unless you think the Stormfather (and Syl) was lying about what he is (a Splinter of Honor).

The visions were sent from the past, by Honor, at the time of his Splintering, to recruit a Bondsmith (we don't know if other Bondsmiths would see the same visions) to Keep Up The Fight Without Me.

The new twist is that he's basically zooming and freezing on the corner details of the vision on replay, and has learned that the nature of Odium's destruction of Kholinar comes not from the Everstorm but from forces led by some kind of champion in black Shardplate and glowing red eyes with "nine shadows" associated with him (The Unmade?), and that Dalinar feels something terribly familiar when he looks into the eyes of that champion.

I don't think it's meant to be literally personal recognition of someone from Dalinar's life and times - more like realizing what The Thrill was all along - but that's just my interpretation.

 

 

 

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

This is a replay of one the visions Dalinar has already experienced in "The Way of Kings", so you know exactly what it is.

The visions come from Honor by way of the Stormfather. Unless you think the Stormfather (and Syl) was lying about what he is (a Splinter of Honor).

That is not guaranteed, do we really think its so implausible for Cultivation or Odium to stick a piece at the end of the vision he is already having? Specially since the Stormfather didn't see it, and he should be able to see anything Honor put there. 

[redbishop]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

That is not guaranteed, do we really think its so implausible for Cultivation or Odium to stick a piece at the end of the vision he is already having? Specially since the Stormfather didn't see it, and he should be able to see anything Honor put there. 

I like this, especially the way you articulated something that had been itching in my brain about the scene.

Alternatively, I got the impression that Brandon wants us to think that the Stormfather had stopped watching for some reason.  Whether he didn't see it or couldn't see it may become clear later.

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

That is not guaranteed, do we really think its so implausible for Cultivation or Odium to stick a piece at the end of the vision he is already having? Specially since the Stormfather didn't see it, and he should be able to see anything Honor put there. 

Hmm, I see your point. The "golden light" that Dalinar saw at the end that showed him the "dark figure in black Shardplate" with red eyes and casting nine shadows, that the Stormfather did not know about. Just as the Stormfather did not send the vision Dalinar had in Urithiru after bonding the Stormfather, of his happy childhood.

Seems more to be something of Cultivation than Odium, but it does suggest that Dalinar is getting touched by more than just Honor.
 

[Harbour]

Im really excited by that Odium's Champion. The more exciting is the fact that Dalinar found something familiar in his eyes. That opens so much possibilities, one better (or worse) than another:

-Gavilar or Amaram, who fell into the trap of blind good intentions;

-Moash, led by his own understanding of the world order;

-Dalinar himself, led by his good intentions and infinite tenacity to the Odium's camp;

-Adolin, forsaken by his father and friends, torn by guilt, doubts and despair;

-Kaladin, the fallen hero, disappointed by humankind and Herald's secret sins.

 

Kaladin has the least chances to become Odium's champion imo, so ill try to look at potential conflict of the Hero (Kal) with his Nemesis.

I find Kaladin and Dalinar conflict the most interesting if it will happen. Kaladin and Adolin is too cliched, Kaladin and Moash has already happened and will happen again, on a more private level, Kaladin and Amaram conflict was in fact decided in WoR, and Kaladin-Gavilar has nothing to share to become an interesting conflict.

Yep, id look at Kaladin vs Dalinar global conflict.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Harbour

[PunSpren]

Something i just picked up on,

 

Quote

 

“We’ve been looking for him,” said the officer in green. “Looking for him? You lost your highprince?”

“The tunnels are confusing!” the man said. “They don’t go natural directions. We got turned about and…”

 

The tunnels dont go in natural directions.... why wouldn't they...

We are in the home of the Knights radiant 

My mind conjures up ideas that the floor plan of ten of the levels is the glyph representing each order. The floors where the orders made their home might be the symbol for that order.

Might explain the convoluted tunnels....

If that is the case, and there are 18 floors, 10 floors could be the orders symbols, what could make up the other floors? 

 

 

Edit: the more I think about this the less sense it makes to me.... carry on

Edited August 30, 2017 by PunSpren

[+Wax]

Interestingly, Dalinar had called for Ialay on seeing Sadeas's body.

I wonder if Ialay will ask Dalinar to set a punishment in advance or reward for the capture/killing of Sadeas's killer.

So, I am guessing that's what will come out in the following chapters in the next week or two.

And a request for some posters: I love your stuff and want to read all your words, but please break your text into multiple paragraphs.  Once a paragraph hits 8-10 lines, it requires more concentration to read...

Edited August 30, 2017 by axcellence

[FollowYourMuse]

39 minutes ago, PunSpren said:

Something i just picked up on,

 

The tunnels dont go in natural directions.... why wouldn't they...

We are in the home of the Knights radiant 

My mind conjures up ideas that the floor plan of ten of the levels is the glyph representing each order. The floors where the orders made their home might be the symbol for that order.

Might explain the convoluted tunnels....

If that is the case, and there are 18 floors, 10 floors could be the orders symbols, what could make up the other floors? 

Or the Tunnels are designed for Radiants ... for Edgedancers and Dustbringers to slide along, Windrunners and Skybreakers to fall down ....  

 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Or the Tunnels are designed for Radiants ... for Edgedancers and Dustbringers to slide along, Windrunners and Skybreakers to fall down ....  

 

So are the Elsecaller floors solid rock with rooms carved in and no doors or hallways? 

Their powers would both work best in straight lines, which would be less confusing. 

[FollowYourMuse]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So are the Elsecaller floors solid rock with rooms carved in and no doors or hallways? 

Their powers would both work best in straight lines, which would be less confusing. 

True, I was thinking with  that curved halls without straight corners would work better.

[soyperson]

5 hours ago, robardin said:

Regarding the "familiarity" Dalinar sensed when seeing the vision of Odium's champion...

Elhokar?

It's widely assumed that the "shadows" he saw in mirrors "that went away when [Kaladin] appeared" are some kind of Cyptic, like the ones that Shallan sees, but perhaps they're actually something of the Unmade, playing on his paranoia and insecurity. What better way to finally measure up to Dalinar and Kaladin than to become a Champion of equal or greater stature?

It's also widely assumed that Odium's intent is to destroy Roshar, but what if Elhokar is told - and truly believes - that if Odium prevails in whatever contest the Oathpact specifies he'll just leave Roshar alone, with all Desolations done with, and Elhokar would be the "Champion who brought peace"?

Ooh. I like that.

 

Also, @PunSpren, that's a good point. Perhaps the top floor was the Windrunners?

Edited August 30, 2017 by bleeder

[dionysus]

I don't have much to add to the impressions already submitted. I did have a different reaction to the chapter headings.

"I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist."

My first reaction that the simplest thing that would cause those three reactions would be if the record was written by a man. As to the identify of that man, my leading candidates would be the Sunmaker or one of the male main characters.

[PunSpren]

@bleeder Thats kind of what i was thinking at first. But the text states that it was a tower of ten tiers, each with 18 levels . As fun as the symbolism might be it doesn't seem realistic  the more thought i put in it. 

[Storyspren]

Little help here guys? Who have we already seen having a shadow point the wrong direction besides Jasnah while not totally in shadesmar? Might be a foreshadowing clue there as to who is the red-eyes-golden-glowy-9-shadow-haver, presumed champion of something or other.

[Nymeros]

Boring opening. It felt like so much was brushed over. It didnt feel as....substantial as I have come to expect from Stormlight.

Lopen already had his other arm? No one cares that the Kingsgaurd betrayed the king or a renegade shard bearer?

I would rather have seen a chapter of Dalinar dealing Elokhars condition, the logistics of such a large move, and finding out about Sadeas come the chapters end. 

Opium has some cool imagery though. Someone get on that black knight asap!

[frozndevl]

25 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

Little help here guys? Who have we already seen having a shadow point the wrong direction besides Jasnah while not totally in shadesmar? Might be a foreshadowing clue there as to who is the red-eyes-golden-glowy-9-shadow-haver, presumed champion of something or other.

I believe you are referring to Axies, one of the Aimians. And I have no clue how to search for WoB about shadows, but I recall one mentioning something about a connection to the Cognitive realm being able to do strange things to a shadow; either that or I am imagining things.

[Storyspren]

53 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

I believe you are referring to Axies, one of the Aimians. And I have no clue how to search for WoB about shadows, but I recall one mentioning something about a connection to the Cognitive realm being able to do strange things to a shadow; either that or I am imagining things.

Thanks! I think that points me in the right direction. 

[FiveLate]

3 hours ago, PunSpren said:

Something i just picked up on,

 

The tunnels dont go in natural directions.... why wouldn't they...

We are in the home of the Knights radiant 

My mind conjures up ideas that the floor plan of ten of the levels is the glyph representing each order. The floors where the orders made their home might be the symbol for that order.

Might explain the convoluted tunnels....

If that is the case, and there are 18 floors, 10 floors could be the orders symbols, what could make up the other floors? 

 

 

Edit: the more I think about this the less sense it makes to me.... carry on

Now my imagined view of Urithiru is a 180 level Escher drawing....

[Emerald101]

My first impression was absolute elation. I didn't notice anything being off about his writing but that might just be my excitement showing. My first though on the vision was Odium's champion being silhouetted by Odium. I really don't know why Brandon would write a scene like that only to go 'Oh that was just symbolic, Odium's champion doesn't actually look like that', or the person in the armor is secretly just Odium's avatar. This isn't a tricky plot twist building or hidden meaning scene. It's purpose is straightforward: make the reader scared for what's coming. Too much is being read into this. Dalinar being reluctant to be happy about Sadeas's death feels dead on to me. I for one am happy he died, but it feels right for Dalinar's character. Other stuff is mostly a blur, except cool worldbuilding things. I'm going to have to read this again soon.

About how other people know about the Everstorm - there are cities east of the shattered plains, on the eastern coast of Roshar. Specifically, Dawn's Shadow and New Natanatan as seen on the map, as well as who knows how many other settlements that aren't large enough to be on the map. Spanreeds are a thing guys.

About Honor not being able to have information about the current state of events - that vision in particular was of what Honor feared happening in the future, via shardic future sight and the spiritual realm. I definitely doubt that the familiarity Dalinar sees is referring to a specific person - more likely he recognizes the thrill or something similar, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

About the gold light being similar to that at the end of WoR - I highly doubt there is a connection there. Here's the quote from WoR

Quote

"Warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping, piercing warmth. A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He stared at that light, and was not blinded. The source was distant,but he knew it. Knew it well. He smiled. Then he awoke."

-WoR ch. 89, pg 1065

The light in this vision is described as being "[a] golden light, brilliant yet terrible", and "'It was brilliant and golden, but terrible,' Dalinar whispered. 'It bathed everything in its heat'". The first is never described as golden, and is something enjoyable. The second is overwhelming and terrible. Further, if they were similar I'm sure Dalinar would comment on it.

[maxal]

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

He stopped them for a completely selfish reason. There's no positive in that. If the new conscripted had ask to take part in the debauchery he would have let him. He was paying a price and nothing more. 

There's no redeeming qualities shown in young Dalinar. The Thrill made him a sociopath. 

Well... You can't blame me for trying to find one... I know what is to come.

22 hours ago, sooyangi said:

I can see that! I have a slightly different opinion though. Renarin was always told he was "sick" and people basically viewed him weak and unfit to be a fighter, which in his eyes makes him feel and think others feel as if he's useless. If I were to grow up that way, I wouldn't feel confident either. And personally, as someone who doesn't feel confident in her abilities, it's really easy to doubt yourself than it is to believe in yourself. I also don't think he ever bothered with his powers because he probably didn't even consider the possibility that he could be a radiant (in-training). 

Which makes me excited to see his character growth! Especially now that he has a purpose.

Who cares if he can't be a soldier? Everyone loves Renarin! He has the most important thing in the world: a supporting very loving family eager to obey to his every whim. They support him, no matter what he does, but it is not enough. I can't find sympathy for someone having gotten so much and yet thinking he has so little. Maybe it is a personality flaw within myself, but I just don't find Renarin endearing, not when he behaves this way.

21 hours ago, Pattern said:

Perhaps Renarin knows that he can't because of something we and nobody else know. And something is off with him being a Proto-Radiant? He somehow became suspicious for me during that scene and I am thrilled to read more.

Despite my obvious annoyance over Renarin's character, I am curious to find out more about him. A lot of people have theorized something is wrong with his Radianhood. 

21 hours ago, Pattern said:

I really don't see Adolin keeping his cleaning action (I won't call it murder, though it technically was) secret for much longer. I've got the impression that he is nearly bursting with guilt, already showing in his deteriorating mood and quick temper.

I have re-read the Adolin viewpoint and I have to agree with you. I do sense a vibe of nervousness within Adolin, he seemed very on edge and his temper was short. He fears being alone, he refuses to be alone as he wants to avoid thinking over what he has done. My take is he hasn't yet accepted his action: he hasn't even move to the point where he can feel guilt, he is in denial. I wonder, has he slept at all? If he fears to be by himself, then he ought to fear the one moment where we are utterly alone with our thoughts: the bed.

20 hours ago, SLNC said:

I desperately hope, that Adolin doesn't begin to think, that everything can be solved with murders and assassinations, but I can see him beginning to plot to murder Ialai, just to finish, what he started. Or maybe he just snaps again. We don't know.

Ialai also might demand satisfaction and Dalinar will be forced to punish Adolin for the "greater good". But Adolin might understand, that since he also killed Sadeas for the "greater good", by keeping his father secure, who fights for the "greater good"... (Sorry for the snark, but the more I think about it, the more I am shaking my head, about how damnation stupid Adolin was in killing Sadeas. I know why he did it and I understand it and I agree about saying good riddance to Sadeas, but I still can't get over the stupidity of it. It just complicated many, many things for some short-term satisfaction.)

I do not fear Adolin will start to think all of his problems can be solved through murder. He seems on his nerves quite enough as it is, he won't want to worsen his predicament. I personally foresee Adolin's mood and physical state to deteriorate as the investigation moves forward. He won't sleep, he won't eat much, he'll just work and work and work, anything to avoid having to deal with the murder.

Anyone ever read of the stages of grief? It explains how people deal with trauma and it usually involves several stages: denial, anger, sadness then acceptance. Adolin clearly is in denial, then we can expect anger followed by sadness before the dust falls back down. I can't wait to read more of it.

I also agree Ialai is a loose canon and won't be pleased at seeing her husband dead. While those we have seen so far were quite happy at seeing the old weasel dead, I am betting not everyone will share their enthusiasm.

20 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

*I think Adolin's scene was a later addition. If you look at Brandon's visual outline he never intended to have a tertiary character POV in part one. Only the main characters were in part one. Brandon said after info from readers he added some scenes to clarify things. Adolin's scene only does three things. One, worldbuilding. Two, reminds us Adolin killed Sadeas. And three, shows us his state of mind. I think Brandon originally wanted to keep Adolin at a distance from the reader for a bit, but then maybe his beta readers forgot who killed Sadeas. It is possible. I doubt all of Brandon's beta readers had read WoR obsessively over the past few years. I do think it is more important that the reader knows Adolin is the killer than to keep us in suspense of Adolin's state of mind. And even what we got wasn't that in depth. Adolin seems to still be in shock and he has not processed his actions yet. Of course, this is just a guess. It's a good scene and I am glad we got some of Adolin's POV.

I had wonder about the outline too. He wasn't supposed to have viewpoints in part 1. What happened? I'd be curious if the version of the story the beta readers got had those viewpoints or if it was something they felt was missing. Adolin's state of mind has always seem as something important to broach and it has been one of the reasons I previously ranted against the outline as it didn't allow the readers to get any insight on his character.

Even if it wasn't an in-depth perspective, I am glad we got it. I hope to read Adolin's deteriorating mind.

Now, something I wanted to add onto Odium's champion... The more I think of it, the more convinced I am those expressing the idea what felt familiar to Dalinar within his eyes was the Thrill. I then wondered if maybe we got it wrong. What if Odium doesn't actually get to chose his champion? What if whom becomes the champion isn't the product of Odium singling out an individual, but a by-product of the Desolation? In shorts, what if the champion merely is the one individual who totally, completely succumbs to the Thrill? The champion is the one who losses himself into it, who becomes a beast, who forgets reality, who forgets whom he is/was and who lives only for the kill: what if it were possible to fall do deep into it, it is impossible to ever leave it? What if once you reach this state, you end up bonding Nearghoul, thus accessing surges, Shardplate, Shardblade, but of a bad kind.

What if Dalinar was one step away from becoming this man? Wouldn't this give an all new light to Taravangian's claim had Dalinar kept on being the Blackthorn, he would have been useful. Useful to what? To become the champion of all evil?

 

[ParadoxicalZen]

i do like that line of thinking @maxal it would be an interesting road to go down

[Pattern]

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

In shorts, what if the champion merely is the one individual who totally, completely succumbs to the Thrill?

A very interesting and plausible mechanism for Odium to "choose" his champion.

7 hours ago, maxal said:

What if Dalinar was one step away from becoming this man?

From the things we see in "The Thrill" that does not seem improbable. I don't think the champion in the vision has any physical resemblance to Dalinar though, but that Dalinar recognizes the emotion in the eyes. Under the assumption that the vision is of Honor (without external, newer influences), Honor would have not been able to foresee possible candidates and their physical features with his restricted ability to see the future.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Pattern
Typo, oh, typo

[17th Splinter]

4 hours ago, Emerald101 said:

My first impression was absolute elation. I didn't notice anything being off about his writing but that might just be my excitement showing. My first though on the vision was Odium's champion being silhouetted by Odium. I really don't know why Brandon would write a scene like that only to go 'Oh that was just symbolic, Odium's champion doesn't actually look like that', or the person in the armor is secretly just Odium's avatar. This isn't a tricky plot twist building or hidden meaning scene. It's purpose is straightforward: make the reader scared for what's coming. Too much is being read into this. Dalinar being reluctant to be happy about Sadeas's death feels dead on to me. I for one am happy he died, but it feels right for Dalinar's character. Other stuff is mostly a blur, except cool worldbuilding things. I'm going to have to read this again soon.

About how other people know about the Everstorm - there are cities east of the shattered plains, on the eastern coast of Roshar. Specifically, Dawn's Shadow and New Natanatan as seen on the map, as well as who knows how many other settlements that aren't large enough to be on the map. Spanreeds are a thing guys.

About Honor not being able to have information about the current state of events - that vision in particular was of what Honor feared happening in the future, via shardic future sight and the spiritual realm. I definitely doubt that the familiarity Dalinar sees is referring to a specific person - more likely he recognizes the thrill or something similar, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

About the gold light being similar to that at the end of WoR - I highly doubt there is a connection there. Here's the quote from WoR

The light in this vision is described as being "[a] golden light, brilliant yet terrible", and "'It was brilliant and golden, but terrible,' Dalinar whispered. 'It bathed everything in its heat'". The first is never described as golden, and is something enjoyable. The second is overwhelming and terrible. Further, if they were similar I'm sure Dalinar would comment on it.

I was just about to bring this up. The light is only described as warm and light. No color at all is mentioned. Also I really like gold for Odium. It kind of seems like odium could be closer to " Gods own divine Wrath" instead of "divine hatred". 

[Darkness]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Who cares if he can't be a soldier? Everyone loves Renarin! He has the most important thing in the world: a supporting very loving family eager to obey to his every whim. They support him, no matter what he does, but it is not enough. I can't find sympathy for someone having gotten so much and yet thinking he has so little. Maybe it is a personality flaw within myself, but I just don't find Renarin endearing, not when he behaves this way.

Despite my obvious annoyance over Renarin's character, I am curious to find out more about him. A lot of people have theorized something is wrong with his Radianthood. 

...

Now, something I wanted to add onto Odium's champion... The more I think of it, the more convinced I am those expressing the idea what felt familiar to Dalinar within his eyes was the Thrill. I then wondered if maybe we got it wrong. What if Odium doesn't actually get to chose his champion? What if whom becomes the champion isn't the product of Odium singling out an individual, but a by-product of the Desolation? In shorts, what if the champion merely is the one individual who totally, completely succumbs to the Thrill? 

I dont feel like we're reading the same book Maxal. Everybody loves Renarin? Not even close! Zahel feels obvious pride and affection for him and Adolin loves him (just as Renarin loves Adolin), but Dalinar didn't seem to know what to do with him until he came out as a Truthwatcher. From the way Renarin acted around Dalinar, it was clear to me that Renarin knows his father thinks of him as less capable than Adolin, and true or not, that hurts.

Outside of his family, everyone in high Alethi society thinks of him as a cripple, weird, or useless, that was evidenced when Adolin overheard his 'friends' talking about it in the warcamps. Sadeas is the only one who lays it out plain to the Kholins, but Renarin is very aware of how people regard him. He's an outsider to his own society, and he said so when he went to join bridge 4.

I think your annoyance of Renarin and love of Adolin may be giving you a bias in this case. It certainly isn't any kind of personality flaw, but I guess just like in real life, you'll like some people while others dont, and vise versa.

Regarding Odium's champion, I like the idea, but I think it's a little bit too stripped down. There are nine Unmade, and even though we know some aren't as sapient, and some aren't as active in the living host, I would be very surprised if the only prerequisite to being champion was being attuned to just one of the nine unmade. And there is still the minor detail that Tanavast said, "perhaps you can get him to choose a champion" (can't actually remember if he said choose or pick, but still...), which implies a cognizant decision by Odium.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Darkness

[Pattern]

@Darkness, @maxal:In the vision in WoK, the figure in gold, who identifies himself later as the Almighty says:

Quote

You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And ... without the Dawnshards ... Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone,

We have a lot of could and might in there, so the champion of Odium appearing in the vision where Honor shows his greatest fear (not the future) is no real contradiction to the other vision where Honor suggests the champion.

The phrasing "get him to choose" also leaves room for interpretation. A concious act of Odium seems to be likely, I don't think the conciousness of the choosing is strictly necessary, though. If Odium is bound by rules and Dalinar - or someone else - would present only one candidate to choose from (e.g. someone totally lost to the Thrill), this person would become Odiums champion. That is quite constructed and a concious action by Odium seems much smoother to me

Dawnshards ... I guess we will get more about them quite soon.

About the gold: Honor appears in one vision as a figure in gold, in another the golden light backlighting Odium's champion is said to be Odium himself. Looks like that shards on Roshar have a faible for gold.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Pattern