[OB] Oathbringer Chapter 1-3

[ccstat]

6 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Finally, does Elhokar have authority in Urithiru or does the current Bondsmith have the right of leadership in the city of the Radiance? Dalinar as head of the Knights Radiant may have the authority to assign anyone to do anything in that city and just uses the structure of Alethkar with Highprinces because that is what is familiar.

This is a great point. I'm sure it's not what Dalinar was thinking, but it sounds like a very valid argument to justify the action after the fact. I almost hope this is the angle he takes for assuming command.

[redbishop]

4 minutes ago, ccstat said:

This is a great point. I'm sure it's not what Dalinar was thinking, but it sounds like a very valid argument to justify the action after the fact. I almost hope this is the angle he takes for assuming command.

Based on his stated purpose of uniting the entire continent, I would suspect that he views his role as a divine mandate.  He may not have decided what the nature of that will look like, but I imagine it is more of "This needs doing, and the Almighty told me to do it.  I only know one effective way, and that is via blunt force."  Whether he intends to set himself up as Overlord or simply bully everyone is largely irrelevant; Dalinar is the de facto leader of the Alethi, the nominal head of the reborn Knights Radiant, and the former warlord that dominated the historically-warlike kingdom.

If there were ever someone for whom finding a specific source of authority was moot, it would likely be Dalinar Kholin.

[ParadoxicalZen]

2 more points: 

Firstly, the storm part. Remember both the Everstorm and the Stormfather's Highstorm collided into each other like two waves meeting to become a bigger wave so given that Highstorms are plenty big already, the two combined would probably have been seen by some of the far off cities. It was also plenty strong enough to rip up plateaus from the ground (also remember this is globe/continent spanning weather phenomenon, perhaps someone should ask how big Roshar is compared to our continents to get an idea, I imagine it as about 3x the size of Australia.)

Secondly, Squires and distance. I imagine there is some leeway in regards to distance but I believe it may or may not depend on whether Kaladin is Surgebinding or not. We see Kaladin falling in style to stop Dadinar dying and its mentioned that some of the Bridge 4 guys were glowing a little bit (interestingly enough, they were protecting Dalinar and as a side note like someone already mentioned before, Lopen was protecting Elhokar) so it may just depend on whether Kaladin is actively accessing his bond or; on 2 factors; if they act in accordance to the Order's Ideals, and proximity to the Radiant (granted, this may be circumstantial). I imagine that they can inhale Storm light regardless, providing they're upholding the Ideals, and maybe access 1 of the two Surges when close to Radiant (we never actually saw Lopen use Adhesion at the end of WoR, just inhaling Stormlight)

Edited August 30, 2017 by ParadoxicalZen

[Overlord Jebus]

Quote

A knife through the eye was the sort of wound that killed an armored man wearing a full helm. It was a maneuver you practiced to use on the battlefield. But Sadeas had not been wearing armor and had not been on a battlefield.

Dalinar leaned down, inspecting the body lit by flickering oil lanterns as it lay on the table.

“Assassin,” Navani said, clicking her tongue and shaking her head. “Not good.”

 

Dalinar does not say anything in regards to who he thinks killed Sadeas. He doesn't agree with Navani's assumption of an assassin and actively suspects someone used to fighting in war.

Is Dalinar going to start suspecting the people around him? He may not jump straight to Adolin but he might start getting suspicious.

[redbishop]

4 minutes ago, overlordjebus said:

Is Dalinar going to start suspecting the people around him? He may not jump straight to Adolin but he might start getting suspicious.

Perhaps, but not yet.  Emphasis mine:

Quote

Dalinar looked up, inspecting those in the room. Sebarial and Palona. Teft and Sigzil, the lieutenants from Bridge Four. A handful of other soldiers, including the young scout woman who had fetched him. His sons, steady Adolin and impenetrable Renarin. Navani, with her hand on his shoulder. Even the aging Kalami, hands clasped before her, meeting his eyes and nodding.

“You all agree, don’t you?” Dalinar asked.

Nobody objected. Yes, this murder was inconvenient for Dalinar’s reputation, and they certainly wouldn’t have gone so far as to kill Sadeas themselves.

My guess is that he is, presently, so overwhelmed by the next step that he isn't stopping to worry about this at the moment.  Heck, just about any of Dalinar's men would have some motive for this, after the Tower.  That doesn't narrow the field very much.

[Darkness]

1 hour ago, Stormfury said:

HOLY STORMING [...]

Stormfury

That's a heck of a first post

Upvoted you not just for your first post to the forums, but also for the content. I think you made some very solid points, and I look forward to seeing more of what you have to say in the future!

I agree with several posters (and obviously, my original post in this thread haha) that Dalinar feeling 'familiarity' in those eyes could have less to do with 'who' it is, and more to do with 'what' it is (as in, invested by Odium, under the effect of the Thrill, etc.). But it is fun to think that maybe we already know Odium's champion (if Odium does indeed choose one). I had about an hour long conversation with my wife about who the 2 champions could be. My most likely were Szeth (for Honor, after he gets rid of Nightblood's investiture interference) vs. Eshonai (for Odium), but I'm only giving that maybe a 5% chance, with 95% that I have noooooo idea. Also, I figure Taravangian would make quite the champion for Endowment, but that's a separate issue. My wife figured it might be Dalinar (but also figured that might be too predictable) vs. Eshonai or Adolin for all the reasons developed in this thread already.

On a completely separate topic, I thought it was hilarious when Dalinar was appraising his companions in the room after Sadeas was discovered: "His sons, steady Adolin and impenetrable Renarin." I had to laugh... those are pretty much the exact opposite of the words I would use to describe those two in recent times

 

[Steeldancer]

Me? I'm just mildly pleased I was fast enough to make this topic 

[Stark]

4 minutes ago, Flash said:

Me? I'm just mildly pleased I was fast enough to make this topic 

Anything else would be a little disappointing from someone who took Flash as their user name, and came up for a in Cosmere mechanic to create the Flash...

[Toaster Retribution]

8 minutes ago, Darkness said:

impenetrable Renarin

Where did Dalinar even get this one from? 

[ccstat]

1 hour ago, redbishop said:

If there were ever someone for whom finding a specific source of authority was moot, it would likely be Dalinar Kholin.

Perhaps, but giving a rationale to the people you want to lead never hurts. The Blackthorn didn't unite Alethkar by himself last time; Gavilar was there to take care of the politicking, which is definitely necessary now if Dalinar doesn't want to waste too much time conquering the entire world. Seems to me that giving an explanation like @eveorjoy's is more likely to accomplish that goal.

Edited August 30, 2017 by ccstat

[redbishop]

2 minutes ago, ccstat said:

Send to me that giving an explanation like @eveorjoy's is more likely to accomplish that goal.

Certainly, and I in no way meant to diminish a perfectly valid theory.  Rather, I meant to field that there were many possible sources of authority - including the fact that matters were sufficiently murky and urgent that he himself didn't feel the need to seek one out specifically.  Doubtless, those that flock to Dalinar will choose from a variety of possible sources of authority.

[Jaconis]

30 minutes ago, Flash said:

Me? I'm just mildly pleased I was fast enough to make this topic 

I'm following the thread, so I get email alerts for each new post. My email typically groups them as one email chain, each new email a response from the other. I've recently learned (because of this and the prologue thread) that it won't go beyond 100 emails in a single chain. It starts a new one.

Barely 24 hours from the release of these chapters, and it's on the third chain already. 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Where did Dalinar even get this one from? 

People have trouble reading his emotions or knowing what he's thinking. 

It actually makes a lot of sense. 

[JoyBlu]

23 hours ago, Extesian said:

Wow. Just wow. So much from two chapters. I say two because the flashback we've had for some time (except the last few paragraphs. So I'll make my initial comments on the first two before I fall asleep (sorry if others have posted the same stuff)

The Champion is fascinating but so is Odium's light being gold. And the champions eyes being red. Makes me think of Miles talking about red and gold...

Azimir!

 Maybe irrelevant but the same strata pattern that Tien loved. In a place Szeth refers to have stones hallowed enough to walk on.

Very interesting. Squires are proximity tied to the radiant. Means the bond between them is not spiritual?

This fascinates me. They were progressively losing the Destinations! They must have started off with humanity being more advanced and reverted to cavemen. The heralds originally had an easier job. And if it was down sliding like that, maybe they even made the right choice...

And of course, finally confirmation of 9 Unmade

Time to fall asleep and see what has been said in the morning! And what I've hastily and wrongly put

OATHBRINGEEEER!!!!!!!!!!!!

The strata pattern brought to mind the Emperor's Soul and the prison that Shai was in that was made of "many different veins of rock". 

I agree that the strata pattern in the rock is significant -- but I don't understand its purpose  yet. Thank you for the Tien & Szeth rock references.

I wonder what type of rock Thunderclasts are made of. Is Urithiru made up of a type of rock that contains metals? Can this rock protect / resist Thunderclasts, forging, soul casting? Or is this the rock that Thunderclasts are formed from?

[JoyBlu]

23 hours ago, Pammie said:

 

There's no way that he'll ever accept Sadeas' death as anything other than a brutal, unlawful murder, which is going to cause problems when he discovers who the murderer is (which I'm guessing will occur in this book, fingers crossed.) And I'm sure that Ialai isn't going to fade into the background, we know that she was just as politically savvy as Sadeas. Maybe she'll frame Dalinar, causing problems for his efforts to unify? If Adolin tries to justify his actions, maybe he'll consider murdering her (or others who are causing problems and distracting from the Everstorm and upcoming Desolations)? 

 

I believe that Lalai is going to play an important role after Sadeas death. I think that she was the mastermind behind Sadeas and she will find another man to take the lead. Although I did sense real affection / comradamy between Lalai & Sadeas.  Meridas Amaram is still single, right?  Replace one slimy husband with another?

[WhiteLeeopard]

I can't believe I didn't realize this earlier. But, Bridge 4 no longer seems to be the Kholin bodyguards. There is no mention of them guarding any of them, although they are clearly in the inner circle. I guess this makes sense. Renarin and Dalinar no longer really need bodyguards (or at least, if they need them normal soldiers, even squires like bridge 4 won't be enough to stop them). Adolin was always the one that least needed bodyguards, as he was young and capable (ironically he is likely the one that needs them the most now). Elhokar...who cares. Navani was never fully included in the list of those that needed it, was more a politeness than necesity. On top of that, it makes sense to have the squire group doing other things, even if their radiant is based on protecting, they may be needed elsewhere. 

And okay, in all seriousness if they are still bodyguarding someone its Elhokar. However, considering the other bridge crews were shaping up nicely, they could use those as bodyguards, and leave the squires (Bridge 4) free to do other things. What things, I'm not sure yet, but I bet we find out soon . Although maybe a couple are around Adolin since they have grown fond of him.

[JoyBlu]

23 hours ago, Jaconis said:

You make good points, and I agree that this doesn't indicate that the champion is the bringer of the destruction. However, I feel as though it can't be ENTIRELY a creation from Honor's own mind. Why else the emphasis, on multiple occasions, of the eyes being familiar? 

On the subject on why they are familiar, there's a whole list of people it could be. Eshonai seems unlikely, as the familiarity Dalinar indicates seems intimate to me, showing close familiarity. He knows who Eshonai is, but he doesn't really KNOW her. That list is smaller. In no particular order: Adolin, Sadeas, Kaladin somehow? Dalinar himself? I could see it being Dalinar only really if the above theory is correct, that it's not the actual champion, just Honor's idea for him, and Honor sort of inserts whoever is having the vision into that spot. I'm not sure if this is an argument for or against some of these but (mistborn spoilers).

  Reveal hidden contents

Marsh was arguably Ruin's champion. He was fanatic about freeing and saving the skaa, but become their greatest threat. Through control and manipulation, but still.

 

I posted this before on a different thread -- but one of the things I've been looking forward to in Oathbringer is to find out more about Dalinar's wife and his experience with the Nightwatcher. Wouldn't it be fascinating if the champion was his wife: Shhshshshshsh (or whatever her name is)?  He would then be fighting a foe that he knew intimately and was familiar with but yet couldn't recall much of the history they had together. That would be interesting to see how that situation played out.  There is so much to his wife that we don't know yet and I hope to find out if forgetting his wife was Dalinar's boon or his curse. 

[Dreamstorm]

12 hours ago, Jaconis said:

Firstly, the heavy exposition is something that happened at the beginning of WoR too, which I find to not be uncommon for sequels in general, and not just from Sanderson. It's frustrating for the more in depth fans like us who don't need reminding of previous events or the state of the world, but for the people who read WoR once - and three years ago at that - it's necessary. 

(Sorry if this is re-post - it disappeared.)  I completely agree with this.  As a late comer, I read WoR immediately after WoK and remember being annoyed/bored by the first few chapters.  (There was one titled Bridge Four which basically just reintroduced the crew and explained what they did in WoK.)  Classic telling versus showing, which is not good writing, but also necessary for a series.  (You already showed the character arcs in the prior book(s).)  I think you lose the more casual reader in a series which doesn't do this (it has happened to me.)

I'm readying Mistborn first trilogy now and am having this problem with the beginning of the second book... I've heard mixed reviews of it in general, so hoping it will improve once the expository phase is over!  (I don't know how many times I can listen to

Spoiler

Elend tell us he loves Vin and vice versa, especially though while I enjoyed their relationship in general, I didn't find their "falling in love" process to be all that convincing in the first book.

)

[+robardin]

Regarding the "familiarity" Dalinar sensed when seeing the vision of Odium's champion...

Elhokar?

It's widely assumed that the "shadows" he saw in mirrors "that went away when [Kaladin] appeared" are some kind of Cyptic, like the ones that Shallan sees, but perhaps they're actually something of the Unmade, playing on his paranoia and insecurity. What better way to finally measure up to Dalinar and Kaladin than to become a Champion of equal or greater stature?

It's also widely assumed that Odium's intent is to destroy Roshar, but what if Elhokar is told - and truly believes - that if Odium prevails in whatever contest the Oathpact specifies he'll just leave Roshar alone, with all Desolations done with, and Elhokar would be the "Champion who brought peace"?

Edited August 30, 2017 by robardin

[Calderis]

@robardin I actually like the idea of Elhokar becoming the champion a lot. 

I still insist that the vision is not showing an actual person. 

[+robardin]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@robardin I actually like the idea of Elhokar becoming the champion a lot. 

I still insist that the vision is not showing an actual person. 

Well, I don't think that the "familiarity" that Dalinar felt when looking into the eyes of Odium's champion was rooted in a physical recognition. After all, this is a "recorded message" that Honor made long ago, Dalinar had to dig into the corner details of it to see this in the first place, and by his own account, Honor wasn't particularly good (for a Shard) at seeing the future, so it's kind of a stretch to think it would be so detailed as to depict a specific person of Dalinar's time.

I think that the familiarity was Dalinar seeing The Thrill or something closely akin to it in those eyes, something he was well familiar with in his past.

But I also think the Champion he saw will be an elevation or possession of someone living, like what happened to Eshonai and the other Listeners, or Szeth when he bonded with an Honorblade - but bonded with something of Odium.
 

[Jaconis]

11 minutes ago, robardin said:

Regarding the "familiarity" Dalinar sensed when seeing the vision of Odium's champion...

Elhokar?

It's widely assumed that the "shadows" he saw in mirrors "that went away when [Kaladin] appeared" are some kind of Cyptic, like the ones that Shallan sees, but perhaps they're actually something of the Unmade, playing on his paranoia and insecurity. What better way to finally measure up to Dalinar and Kaladin than to become a Champion of equal or greater stature?

It's also widely assumed that Odium's intent is to destroy Roshar, but what if Elhokar is told - and truly believes - that if Odium prevails in whatever contest the Oathpact specifies he'll just leave Roshar alone, with all Desolations done with, and Elhokar would be the "Champion who brought peace"?

I like this idea. I like it a lot. Would also explain why they "went away" after Kaladin started hanging around him. 

I've been expecting (or maybe hoping) Elhokar's story arc to be one of redemption. He's a terrible king, taking bad advice from the wrong people and making bad decisions at nearly every turn, but he finally grows up, gets his stuff together and becomes a good leader (maybe with some help from The Lopen and his mother). 

But that's not the way a person like Elhokar would react to the situation he finds himself in. We don't know for sure what he was like as a youth, but it's easy to speculate that he would have been selfish and/or spoiled, accustomed to getting what he wanted and for things to be easy for him. He had money and rank in a world where that meant he could do more or else whatever he wanted with little consequence. Then he gets thrust into a role he's not ready for with enormous responsibilities he can't handle. When he continues to fail to live up to what they have done, he would start to become bitter and resentful of Dalinar and Kaladin. That bitterness would turn to anger, and instead of continuing to try and improve himself, he'd embrace the easy path to power that the darkness would offer. A tale as old as time. 

[+robardin]

12 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

I've been expecting (or maybe hoping) Elhokar's story arc to be one of redemption. ...  he gets thrust into a role he's not ready for with enormous responsibilities he can't handle. When he continues to fail to live up to what they have done, he would start to become bitter and resentful of Dalinar and Kaladin. That bitterness would turn to anger, and instead of continuing to try and improve himself, he'd embrace the easy path to power that the darkness would offer. A tale as old as time. 

And then in a "Darth Gollum" kind of twist, he has a last minute change of heart and destroys himself in the final conflict. Odium was ultimately undefeatable, except by his own Champion!

(I assume that isn't how it will actually play out; I trust Sanderson not to be building up this humongous 10-megabook story arc towards a mashup like that :))
 

[Toaster Retribution]

Speaking of types of rock and Thunderclasts, I bet that Thunderclasts cant be formed from rocks with aluminum in them.

Otherwise, I am slightly amused at the thought of Elhokar turning into "Darth Gollum".

[WhiteLeeopard]

The part of the sample chapters that I found the least interesting by far was the light and "champion". I am doubtful the vision showed the champion himself, at least the current one. If it was, I am almost certain it was not someone Dalinar knows. I don't know if the vision came from Honor, Cultivation or Odium, could be any of them. I don't know if the vision was sent from the past or the present. But for some reason none of these questions really engage me. Probably because I'm nearly sure it wasn't a person, at least not from the present, and that's what the discussion is focusing on. I got more the impression it was familiar because of the influence Dalinar has had from Odium/unmade in the past.