[Spoilers for W&W] Bendalloy + Cadmium at the same time

[AnonymousFan]

We know burning cadmium and bendalloy at once can cancel each other out. But Marasi had a bigger bubble than wax, so in theory if they both burned their metal, then they would create a ring of slow around them while still moving at the same speed. So in theory there could be used for burning both metals.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I think disrupting the bubble at the origin would be enough to suppress the whole effect. 

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

This is what I was able to find:

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QUESTION

If a Mistborn burned both cadmium and bendalloy, would the bubbles be exactly the same size?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That is an excellent question that I am not going to answer just yet.

QUESTION

If they were the same size, would there still be a barrier between the area of normal time and the area of (maybe) distorted time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO. In general, cadmium bubbles are bigger, but you can influence the size.

I remember there being a more specific WOB, but I cannot find it. @Calderis may be able to find a better one.

[Calderis]

29 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I think disrupting the bubble at the origin would be enough to suppress the whole effect. 

Considering that the bubble is fixed in place regardless of where the Allomancer moves inside it, how do you "disrupt" the origin? 

8 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I remember there being a more specific WOB, but I cannot find it. @Calderis may be able to find a better one.

Found it. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1135#5

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SHARDLET

A slider and a pulser are standing near each other and each put up a bubble. Neither is standing close enough to the other to be within the other's bubble, but they are near enough that their bubbles would overlap what effect would you have?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The bubbles would overlap and it would be like a Venn diagram (i.e., outside both bubbles-normal time, in sliders bubble-fast time, in pulser's bubble-slow time, in the overlap-normal time).

So yeah. If the bubbles were in the same spot you'd have a donut ring of slow outside the bendalloy bubble. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Calderis

[AnonymousFan]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering that the bubble is fixed in place regardless of where the Allomancer moves inside it, how do you "disrupt" the origin? 

Found it. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1135#5

So yeah. If the bubbles were in the same spot you'd have a donut ring of slow outside the bendalloy bubble. 

If someone shot a bullet through the donut of slow time, would it go off track protecting the people in normal time?

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, AnonymousFan said:

If someone shot a bullet through the donut of slow time, would it go off track protecting the people in normal time?

It should. It should get deflected at the edges of both bubbles.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

The misting is still the origin of the allomantic pulses. The WoB does make me lean towards your answer, but it seems to me that as soon as the pulses hit the other allomancer it would negate the effect. They may not be able to move the bubble, but they still need to sustain it, and I assume that the allomantic pulses would still be involved somehow.

[AnonymousFan]

5 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

The misting is still the origin of the allomantic pulses. The WoB does make me lean towards your answer, but it seems to me that as soon as the pulses hit the other allomancer it would negate the effect. They may not be able to move the bubble, but they still need to sustain it, and I assume that the allomantic pulses would still be involved somehow.

I see what you're saying I think, so you mean that if someone burned bendalloy and they were in fast time, burning cadmium would slow them down because they're already sped up so they would be burning cadmium at a sped up rate negating it everywhere including where it's outside the bendalloy. Wouldn't really make sense though because that would mean inside the bendalloy it wouldn't Ben negated... Now I've confused myself

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Basically I'm saying that the opposite pulses work as signal jammers on each other. As soon as one covers the 'radio tower,' it can no longer power the rest of the bubble because it's being blocked at the source.

[Calderis]

Just now, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Basically I'm saying that the opposite pulses work as signal jammers on each other. As soon as one covers the 'radio tower,' it can no longer power the rest of the bubble because it's being blocked at the source.

If this were true Mistborn shouldn't be able to function. Any metal burnt with its opposite should negate it other. So no iron and steel together. No soothing some emotions while rioting others. No simultaneous pewter and tin. 

They don't interfere with each other, the effects negate each other. The area outside the bendalloy bubble would be slowed precisely because both are in effect. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

If this were true Mistborn shouldn't be able to function. Any metal burnt with its opposite should negate it other. So no iron and steel together. No soothing some emotions while rioting others. No simultaneous pewter and tin. 

They don't interfere with each other, the effects negate each other. The area outside the bendalloy bubble would be slowed precisely because both are in effect. 

The time metals are different than the rest, they were even designed apart from them. Other metals don't cancel each other out like that, they work based on strength of the allomancer and the strength of the metal flare. This doesn't hold true for the time metals, so we can't assume that everything between them is completely analogous.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

The time metals are different than the rest, they were even designed apart from them. Other metals don't cancel each other out like that, they work based on strength of the allomancer and the strength of the metal flare. This doesn't hold true for the time metals, so we can't assume that everything between them is completely analogous.

No. They all developed together. They all function under the exact same principles. 

The way the power is expressed is designed by the metals. Cadmium and bendalloy may be more obviously opposites than most, but their functions are exactly the same as those I listed. For them to "disrupt" each other, they actual power would have to cease output, and that doesn't happen. The effects just cancel each other out. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1090#1

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LADY RADAGU

Were there Cadmium/Bendalloy and possibly Chromium/Nicrosil mistings in the Final Empire? If yes, were the mists Snapping those too?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Um, yes, there were, but since the mists were trying to create a pattern to be a sign, and people didn't know all the metals, they [the mists] had to use substitutions. They were acting the way we've seen other cognitive shadows, who are deceased, act.

 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I might be wrong on this but I remember Brandon saying that he developed the rest of the metals after finishing the series. It was in a discussion where he mentioned that he hated to include time magic. When I say it was developed separately I mean in the meta. The allomantic table wasn't complete when Brandon Finished Hero of Ages.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I might be wrong on this but I remember Brandon saying that he developed the rest of the metals after finishing the series. It was in a discussion where he mentioned that he hated to include time magic. When I say it was developed separately I mean in the meta. The allomantic table wasn't complete when Brandon Finished Hero of Ages.

How they were developed outside the story has no bearing on the mechanics of the system. The metals all developed in world under the same rules. 

For one metal to disrupt its alloy and Vice versa, they'd all have to. The in book evidence shows us that isn't how it works. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Calderis

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Just now, Calderis said:

How they were developed outside the story has no bearing on the mechanics of the system. The metals all developed in world under the same rules. 

For one metal to disrupt its alloy and Vivenna versa, they'd all have to. The in book evidence shows us that isn't how it works. 

Again, then stronger allomancer flaring their metals would be able to overpower a bubble of a weaker allomancer who is not flaring, and we know this to be false. This is empirical evidence that they don't all work under the rules. 

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Again, then stronger allomancer flaring their metals would be able to overpower a bubble of a weaker allomancer who is not flaring, and we know this to be false. This is empirical evidence that they don't all work under the rules. 

What? Where is there evidence to counter that? From a purely allomantic strength viewpoint, that's perfectly accurate. Hell, piercing copper clouds shows that to be true. The only place that isn't true is where they don't interact, or where other factors (physics) interfere. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Where have we seen evidence that a stronger slider could overpower the bubble of a weaker Pulser, or vice versa? It always says the effects counter each other, not that it's a contest of allomantic strength to see which bubble survives.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Where have we seen evidence that a stronger slider could overpower the bubble of a weaker Pulser, or vice versa? It always says the effects counter each other, not that it's a contest of allomantic strength to see which bubble survives.

Again I have to disagree. The WoBs in question just talk about in or out of the bubble, but if that were the extent of it then time compression/dilation would be a constant rate. The books show us that's not true. 

I can't find a single WoB that addresses allomantic strength on the topic of bubbles. A fairly natural way to explain the mechanics of bubbles overlapping is to assume equal strength of effect, but that isn't ever explicitly stated. 

But we know it's possible to flare time bubbles, and so it's a fairly safe assumption that if a Slider is flaring and their bubble is 10x speed, and a Pulser is burning normally at 0.5x speed (arbitrary numbers for ease of explanation) the area in the middle should be increased to 5x speed. 

Assuming that those WoBs are speaking 100% literally works counter to every other use of Allomancy. Until we see it that way in book or an explicit WoB saying that that's how it works, with no possible variance, I won't believe it. 

The fact that weve seen different rates of compression from Wayne alone tells me that just not the case though. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Again I have to disagree. The WoBs in question just talk about in or out of the bubble, but if that were the extent of it then time compression/dilation would be a constant rate. The books show us that's not true. 

I can't find a single WoB that addresses allomantic strength on the topic of bubbles. A fairly natural way to explain the mechanics of bubbles overlapping is to assume equal strength of effect, but that isn't ever explicitly stated. 

But we know it's possible to flare time bubbles, and so it's a fairly safe assumption that if a Slider is flaring and their bubble is 10x speed, and a Pulser is burning normally at 0.5x speed (arbitrary numbers for ease of explanation) the area in the middle should be increased to 5x speed. 

Assuming that those WoBs are speaking 100% literally works counter to every other use of Allomancy. Until we see it that way in book or an explicit WoB saying that that's how it works, with no possible variance, I won't believe it. 

The fact that weve seen different rates of compression from Wayne alone tells me that just not the case though. 

You've argued your side well. I'm fully convinced. Thanks for the prolonged engagement, I appreciate it.

[+Extesian]

Sorry to WoB you and leabe you, but no time to read all these, does this help?

Quote

Q If Marasi and Wayne are standing near each other, and made a speed bubble….
A They’d cancel each other out.
Q Totally cancel each other?
A Well, if they make it the same size. If not, they will make like a Venn diagram thing.
Q If they overlap completely, they’d just cancel each other out? I mean, they could walk forward freely?
A Yeah, they could probably.
Q Because they are still burning the metals, so is there something still going on?
A Yes, there is still something going on, but it is negating one another. But no, she’s got a point because you could drop one, well, I suppose you could just put one up. If there were a reason that were important, then yes, you could do that.
Q But otherwise nothing’s happening.
A Yeah, you’re not passing the barrier, and having the jolt of power.
Q So something could really cross the barrier? Because it is there but not there.
A Yeah, but if you are completely negating and running at the same power then yes.

 

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

Sorry to WoB you and leabe you, but no time to read all these, does this help?

 

Good to know. If the effects are zeroed out, then the deflection is negated to. 

And gotta love that last line of "running at the same power" there. Allomantic strength does effect it. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

18 hours ago, Calderis said:

Good to know. If the effects are zeroed out, then the deflection is negated to. 

And gotta love that last line of "running at the same power" there. Allomantic strength does effect it. 

Yup, that's absolutely conclusive. Thanks for setting me straight.