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[OB] [Edgedancer Spoilers] Theory Regarding the Old Man in Robes


Amanuensis

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In the Oathbringer Prologue released online by Tor, Eshonai stumbles upon a meeting between Gavilar, Meridas, and four other unnamed people with very limited descriptions, before they are dismissed so he can converse with the adventurous Listener alone. In this post, I will present my thoughts on the identity of one of those guests in particular: the old man in robes.

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Eshonai froze, the door cracked open, allowing her to see into a lush room with a thick red rug and bookshelves lining the walls. So much information just lying around, casually ignored. More surprisingly, King Gavilar himself stood pointing at something on a table, surrounded by five others: two officers, two women in long dresses, and one old man in robes.

Why wasn’t Gavilar at the feast? Why weren’t there guards at the door? Eshonai attuned Anxiety and pulled back, but not before one of the women prodded Gavilar and pointed toward Eshonai. Anxiety pounding in her head, she pulled the door closed.

Emphasis mine.

Consider these bolded facts together. Gavilar not being at the feast and having no guards at the door implies that this was either an impromptu meeting, or a secret one. In either case, Amaram being present - combined with the information Gavilar reveals to have shortly thereafter - lends credence to these people all being Sons of Honor. As for the other officer and the two women in long dresses, they could be anyone. The one old man in robes, however, is particularly intriguing to me.

Having read the comments on Tor and in the Prologue Reaction thread here, it seems most people think the old man in robes is Taravangian, due to the similarity of opinions and methods. I, however, want to challenge that opinion, due to one simple fact. Although Eshonai would not have recognized Taravangian as a king, we should not forget that Mr. T is one. I'm basing a lot of this off memory, but I am relatively certain we have never received a hint that the King of Kharbranth was present on the day Gavilar was assassinated. With how often Jasnah interacted with Mr. T in The Way of Kings, I would have expected a comment on it, at least. Due to this reason alone, I am skeptical.

So, what's the next assumption? We know that many male ardents shave their heads and wear long beards, and that most ardents dress in gray robes. Generally, people who are bald and have beards are perceived as old, but I'll take Eshonai describing him as old at face value and assume he truly is. So who is this ardent? Have we seen him before? I can't think of any that fits the description in particular, which is odd, given how important the Kholin family is. So then who is this ardent who may also be a Son of Honor?

My immediate thought:

Ishar.

Unfortunately, this happens shortly after Eshonai is invited into the room...

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“Thank you, Meridas,” Gavilar said. “Leave us for a moment, all of you.”

They filed out, leaving Eshonai at the door attuning Consolation and humming it loudly—even though the humans wouldn’t understand what it meant.

...so we don't get any more description of the old man to help prove this fact. However, I'm going to explain my thought processes behind this and try to cite as much text as possible to support it.

From the Epigraph of Chapter 86 in Words of Radiance:

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One is almost certainly a traitor to the others.

-From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 27

If you're unfamiliar with the theories regarding this statement, one of the most prominent ones is that Taravangian is referring to the Heralds, here. I personally believe this to be the case, especially after this particular scene in Edgedancer:

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"The Voidbringers have not returned," Darkness said firmly. "Ishar has promised it, and he will not lie. We must do our duty. You were questioning, Szeth-son-Neturo. This is not good; this is weakness. To question is to accept a descent into inactivity. The only path to sanity and action is to choose a code and to follow it. This is why I came to you in the first place.

Nale's got quite a big opinion of Ishar. One that, if Ishar turned out to be a traitor, could easily be used to lead Nale astray. Which, at the end of Lift's "battle" with Nale, he comes so close to realizing...

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He looked up at the thunderheads, rumbling with power, red light ceaselessly roiling within.

In that moment it seemed, strangely, that something within him emerged. It was stupid of her to think that with everything happening - the rain, the winds, the red lighting - she could see a difference in his eyes. But she swore that she could.

He seemed to focus, like a person waking up from a daze. His sword dropped from his fingers and puffed away into mist.

Then he slumped to his knees. "Storms. Jezrien... Ishar... It is true. I've failed." He bowed his head.

And he started weeping.

Puffing, feeling clammy and pained by the rain, Lift lowered her rod.

"I failed weeks ago," Nale said. "I knew it then. Oh, God. God the Almighty. It has returned!"

...yet the Herald of Justice blames himself, instead of the guy who sent him on this task of killing Radiants in the first place. Now, some people argue that Radiants are the cause of Desolations, which could very well be the case, when if you look at the chain of events that lead to the True Desolation, it all comes back to Gavilar alone. Sure, he's a proto-Bondsmith, but I don't think it was the cause of his powers. We saw the visions he got through Dalinar (unless they received different ones, which seems unlikely to me). That makes me wonder how he developed his twisted interpretation of the visions.

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"Ah, but this is for your good, and for ours." He stood up. "We live without honor, for your gods once brought ours. Without them, we have no power. This world is trapped, Eshonai! Stuck in a dull, lifeless state of transition." He looked toward the ceiling. "Unite them. I need a threat. Only danger will unite them."

The world is trapped, eh? That seems like a particular interesting way to word it, given the fact that it's Odium who we know to be trapped, and all this talk about bringing back Eshonai's old gods and needing a threat is very clearly pointing in the evil Shard's direction. In fact, this entire statement, a long with others from Gavilar, suggests he's either batchull insane or being severely mislead. Granted, humans do need to be broken in order to become Radiants, but let's pretend, for now, that the King's not crazy.

Two things that are particularly noteworthy about Gavilar's conversation with Eshonai are how familiar he is with the Listeners, and just how much information he has that's not in the visions Dalinar received. To provide an example:

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"The chasmfiends aren't your gods, are they," he said.

"What?" she asked, attuning Skepticism. "Why ask that?" What a strange turn in the conversation.

Oh, it's merely something I've been thinking about." He took the fabrial back. "My officers feel so superior, as they think they have you figured out. They think you're savages, but they are so wrong. You're not savages. You're an enclave of memories. A window into the past."

He leaned forward, the light from the ruby leaking between his fingers. "I need you to deliver a message to your leaders. The Five? You'e close to them, and I'm being watched. I need their help to achieve something."

She hummed to Anxiety.

"Now, now," he said. "I'm going to help you, Eshonai. Did you know, I've discovered how to bring your gods back?"

No. She hummed to the Rhythm of the Terrors now. No...

"My ancestors," he said, holding up the fabrial, "first learned how to hold a spren inside a gemstone. And with a very special gemstone, you can hold even a god."

In this excerpt alone, he demonstrates knowledge about the origins of the Parshendi that you can't even find in the libraries of Kharbranth, as well as an understanding of their politics and some rhythms. Until this scene, we haven't received any clues to him interacting closely with any Parshendi themselves (although I suppose Venli would make a lot of sense, given Eshonai is surprised Gavilar knows her name, and how much involvement Venli had in the return of the Voidbringers). There is one more thing he says, however, that makes me think of Ishar.

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"Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren." He looked at her, green eyes alight. "I've seen how that can be reversed. A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war."

Emphasis mine.

This particular sentence is very intriguing to me. Through Amaram we've learned the Sons of Honor want the Heralds to return, which they believe requires a Desolation, but this is a very different phrase which makes me think he got this piece of information from a Herald directly, since only they are aware of what the other's are doing really.

Considering how many other Heralds were present at the feast already (Jezrien and Nale are both witnessed directly, I believe Kalak was there as well and we see evidence of Shallash's destructive tendencies), I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ishar, the one initially responsible for them abandoning the Oathpact, was around as well. We don't know much about the man himself, but I think there's a few things we can infer from what information we do have.

Ishar is the patron of the Order of the Bondsmiths, and his attributes are Pious and Guiding. If a Herald like Ishar, who's depiction in chapter titles suggests he's old, balding, and has a large beard, I think it makes a ridiculous amount of sense for him to disguise himself as an Ardent, if he wants to blend in while still influencing events in the world. We have seen various examples of other Heralds attributes being inverted / corrupted, so Ishar seeking a very influential proto-Bondsmith and helping corrupt his interpretations of his visions makes a lot of sense. Especially if we assume that the Traitor epigraph is referring to one of the Heralds, and if we consider Ishar's history of misleading others (looking at you, Nale).

Overall, I'm making a lot of assumptions here. Too many, if I'm honest. Still, being a believer of Ishar betraying the Heralds and now working for Odium, I think it makes a huge amount of sense for him to have been guiding Gavilar towards releasing Odium, whether he does so disguised as an Ardent or openly claiming his identity to him. If this is true, and that Ishar is also responsible for Gavilar's deeper knowledge about the Listeners, then I also think it's possible that he...

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Klade's slave was an assassin. Klade claimed that a voice - speaking to the rhythms - had led him to the man, who had confessed his skills when pressed.

...could have been this voice. I do like the idea of this being Cultivation trying to intervene with Gavilar's plan via the Rhythms, especially since I'm a believer in Taravangian unknowingly working for her. After all, if Szeth never assassinated Gavilar, then he likely would have never end up serving Mr. T and helping him "prune the weeds." However, since this is described as a voice speaking to the rhythms and not in or through them, I do wonder if it came from someone actually speaking. If so, maybe Ishar, having been dismissed from the chamber before Gavilar and Eshonai talk, remained at the door to overhear what they discussed and realizing that the Listeners being warned severely impacted his plans, and thus decided the best course of action would be to get rid of Gavilar now before he could be nudged off course.

A bit of a stretch, I know, but let's talk about it! Do you think the old man could be Ishar? If not, why not? I'd love to have the discussion.

Edited by Amanuensis
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Let me start by saying this is a wonderful analysis and I'll address it properly when I get the chance. For now I'll just say this - the reason I'm convinced the robed old man is Taravangian is because we know he was there that night and in Dalinar's counsel 

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It had worked. Just as the Diagram instructed, Taravangian was king of Jah Keved. He had taken the first major step toward unifying the world, as Gavilar had insisted would need to happen if they were to survive. That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king’s death. Gavilar had seen visions of the Almighty, who was also now dead, and of a coming storm.

That's not to say your theory isn't worthwhile or even impossible. But it's worth mentioning

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Just now, Extesian said:

Let me start by saying this is a wonderful analysis and I'll address it properly when I get the chance. For now I'll just say this - the reason I'm convinced the robed old man is Taravangian is because we know he was there that night and in Dalinar's counsel 

That's not to say your theory isn't worthwhile or even impossible. But it's worth mentioning

And this is why I asked in the Prologue thread if there were clues of him being there xD oh well

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Just now, Amanuensis said:

And this is why I asked in the Prologue thread if there were clues of him being there xD oh well

I must've missed that question, sorry! As I say though, the rest of the theorizing is really interesting and well researched so don't consider that the end of the matter. Once I've finished work I'll look more closely and either way there's plenty in there to spark conversation :)

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4 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I must've missed that question, sorry! As I say though, the rest of the theorizing is really interesting and well researched so don't consider that the end of the matter. Once I've finished work I'll look more closely and either way there's plenty in there to spark conversation :)

No worries! It's my fault for not thinking to look at the chapters from Mr. T's perspective. I wouldn't have missed that piece of information otherwise. Looking forward to having a discussion about Ishar all the same!

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11 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

No worries! It's my fault for not thinking to look at the chapters from Mr. T's perspective. I wouldn't have missed that piece of information otherwise. Looking forward to having a discussion about Ishar all the same!

To be fair, my first thoughts upon reading the prologue were exactly like yours and I was stunned to read that everyone else assumed it was Mr. T. So glad to read I wasn't the only one.:) 

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Yeah. I assumed that Taravangian was there in secret and not necessarily to attend the event. I'm still not sure if he was one of the Sons of Honor or if there was something else going on.

Do we know if him going to the Nightwatcher was after the assasination? Otherwise, I cannot really wrap my head around the different ideologies of the Sons and the Diagram; one way millions of people will die for no reason but power and the other is apparently to ensure that people survive.

He could have been using the Sons but he seems proud that he is doing what he believes Gavilar wanted. Meanwhile Gavilar seems more focused on returning the Radiants than he is about survival.

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23 minutes ago, nervousnerd said:

Do we know if him going to the Nightwatcher was after the assasination? Otherwise, I cannot really wrap my head around the different ideologies of the Sons and the Diagram; one way millions of people will die for no reason but power and the other is apparently to ensure that people survive

It was after. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#9

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QUESTION ()

Did Taravangian go to see the Nightwatcher before or after Gavilar's assassination?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, oh man. I'm going to have to look at my timeline. I believe it's before, but I can't guarantee I'm right, because these things are all happening around the same time.

QUESTION

Because he says that Gavilar confided in him the night of.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ooooh, you're right. Nope, it's after. It is after. You can send that question to Peter so we can confirm it. There might be something I'm forgetting about Taravangian.

[Peter said by PM: "As far as I can tell from what the book says, he went to the Nightwatcher after the assassination."]

 

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30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Hmm. So I wonder if there was a split with the Sons of Honor. Gavilar's behavior during this chapter certainly seems in line with Amaram but I can't see Taravangian holding those beliefs. Perhaps the reveal of the visions changed his mind.

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Love this theory.  I'd much rather it be Ishar than Mr.T for a variety of reasons.

Is it feasible that both Ishar and Mr.T were there?  Taking an above comment that no one else in story has mentioned Mr.T being there the night of the assassination, he may very well have been in disguise.  And being a king, isn't his usual garb something akin to robes?

This is stretching very far with no evidence, but maybe the second soldier is Mr.T, wearing soldier gear instead of his usual kingly cloths to not be recognized.  Now, Eshonai doesn't mention that there were two old men in the room, but from her perspective soldier armor/uniform is probably much more unique and identifiable then 'old.'

 

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I think there is a high chance T was there, and might have gone to the Nightwatcher as a consequence, which then unfolded the Diagram and its plan.

I wouldn't discard Ishar been there, but the chances of running against another Herald that night were quite high. Then again, that even reinforces it. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out every single Herald except Taln was there that night. 

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On 25/08/2017 at 2:25 PM, nervousnerd said:

Hmm. So I wonder if there was a split with the Sons of Honor. Gavilar's behavior during this chapter certainly seems in line with Amaram but I can't see Taravangian holding those beliefs. Perhaps the reveal of the visions changed his mind.

That seems to be exactly what happened

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Q: Both Amaram and Taravangian were members of Gavilar's trusted circle before his death, so are the Sons of Honor and Diagram followers affiliated or separate groups with different agendas?
 
A: Different agendas, but similar origins.

 

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It seems to me unavoidably obvious that it must be Taravangian who is the man in the robes. While Ishar as a son of honor would be both interesting as well as an ironic coincidence there are several things which force me to that conclusion. First as a matter of working themselves into the inner circle we know Taravangian to be a close friend of Gavilar which would not require any level of subterfuge to accomplish. While its true that Ishar has had a lot of time to work at it the necessary legwork would in of itself require a massive conspiracy to fool Gavilar into letting him into the inner circle. And if Nale and Kalak saw him or became aware of his activities Nale would not trust him. There is the matter of Taravangian basically admitting to being there. He says that Gavilar told him about the visions and the implications throughout seem to be that he was a member of the sons of honor if so then it seems in light of the prologue that he must have been there. This by all accounts was a meeting of the inner circle which he must have been a a part of.

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Yeah, I'd have to agree that Travangian was the old man in robes in the meeting since he definitely talked to Gavilar that night. (Maybe Jasnah didn't know he was there?) But I think that you are entirely correct to point out that Gavilar had way too much info just from the visions and that he must have another source of information. He gets too many things right and too many of them just slightly wrong, which is Ishar's standard operating method from the little we've seen. I wouldn't put it past a corrupted him to influence Gavilar in a more indirect way.

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