[OB] Oathbringer Prologue now on Tor.com

[Darkness]

Crackpot theory time:

The voice in the rhythms was Taln. He was driven to the brink of madness and wanted out of torture, so he orchestrated the whole intricate thing to restart a desolation so he could end the tortue without completely breaking Odium's prison wide open.

End crackpot theory.

 

[Rhaegar'Elin]

In regard to the voice speaking to the Rhythms, I don't think it came from an Herald: it doesn't seem to fit with Nale's modus operandi and I don't see why the Heralds should be able to speak to the Rhythms (they could, obviously, but right now looks unlikely to me).

So, I think it's more probable that the voice came from one of the Shards, Cultivation or Odium... maybe, via Unmade: according to a Death Rattle there is the Black Piper in the Night (maybe an Unmade?) that "plays a tune no man can hear."

Anyway, I think both of them could speak to the Rhythms being associated with the Listeners: IIRC there is a WoB that says so, even if not originally.

The problem is which of them spoke to Kaede and why. I think it was Odium and the key of this action is the Everstorm.

We know this is a new thing, never used in other Desolations and we know it transforms every Parshman come in contact with it... so I'm left wondering: how did the Listeners achieved the Forms of Power in the previous Desolations? Sure there was another way.

And what about this old method wouldn't work this time because Parshmen were robbed of an ancient, crucial, spren? What if the "classic" Desolation would come only to leave Odium without a significant amount of his army (or leaving him doing other things in order to regain them)?

There is even a passage in the Diagram that could be interpreted in this way: Taravangian knows that the coming of the Desolation can't be stopped yet he is worried to stop the Parshendi "before this one obtains their power. It will form a bridge." Is he refering to Stormform and the Everstorm? Maybe this would be more dangerous than a "normal" Desolation.

Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced by this theory but I like it more than the ones involving various Heralds.

 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Do I consider Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Napoleon to have been the bad guys? In a way, yes. What need did they have to conquer half the world if it weren't for their personal glory or the glory of their hometown? Is invading another land ever justified? Taking up arms, fighting the people, killing them just so what they have could become yours? Has there ever been a line of reasoning which makes it alright? Just because history remembers those men as great does not mean they were: it means history loves victors and they always get to write it.

And no, just because princedoms have been fighting over their borders does not make Gavilar potentially slaughtering other branches of his family to claim the princedom alright. It also does not make his invading of countries, his destroying of villages, towns, the death toll he left behind him alright. 

It is thus, from my perspective, Gavilar/Dalinar Kholin were the bad guys: they brought war to their own country, they built it over the blood of its people and they hope it will stand united, but it can't. Not as it is, how can it when the only reason it even stands is because you killed all opposition?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts: I understand your POV and you surely state true things but, on the other hand, I can't see the Kholin (or the above mentioned historical figures) as "bad guy" for taking the Princedom or conquering Alethkar... especially considering their war driven culture.

Sure, they did heinous acts during the war (and I condemn them for those) but, given the context, I don't think their desire of conquering was evil in itself.

 

[Jofwu]

13 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

I must humbly disagree. What angle would the Heralds have had to cause his assassination? Nale and Kalak did not seem overly pleased that Szeth was in possession of Jezrien's blade would they then really send him to use it. While I can hear the possibilities set that @Calderis and @Ciridae present, but I further submit that if this was their idea then a)Ishar would have had no need to suggest that Nale start taking out Radiants. Nale would have had no need to take any action to stop a desolation which he according to that interpretation he already took steps to end. Also as @Pattern and @Calderis pointed out his is a far more hands on style which runs counter to what we see with Gavilar's assassination. 

Regarding your (a) and (b) points, I don't think we know enough about what causes Desolations, or about what the Heralds think about what causes them, to say this. It's possible that Radiants popping up and Gavilar's plans are related. It's possible that multiple things can (potentially, maybe) cause a Desolation. I think there are too many variables to assume we understand how all of their plans fit together. And I don't see any problem with Nale doing something less hands on than usual. Gavilar is the king. He can't kill Gavilar "hands on" without being guilty of regicide. But nothing in the law says he can't find somebody else who wants Gavilar dead and hook them up with a powerful assassin. I think it absolutely fits with who Nale is.

Quote

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—”

Nale and (probably) Kalak know that Szeth is there. They know he has an Honorblade. They're involved with him somehow. ("I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong." is certainly related to his statements about Szeth) Also note that they seem to be leaving and Nale says the feast is over (it wasn't) the very moment that the assassination picks up. They're totally aware of what's going on with Szeth. If you argue that someone else is responsible for connecting Szeth to the Parshendi, then you have to explain away this interaction and all of its implications. I find that very difficult to do.

Directly killing Gavilar is against his code, but getting someone else the means to do it isn't. Heralds are not normal beings, so it's entirely likely that they can use/interact with the listener rhythms. And they get the added bonus of the Alethi starting a war with the Parshendi. This ensures Gavilar's work isn't easily picked up and it probably leads to these non-Parshmen listeners being wiped out. That's probably a good thing, in their view, when it comes to making sure Desolations don't happen.

Nale/Ishar killing Radiants to prevent a Desolation doesn't imply that's the only thing that causes Desolations, or that the cause is so simple.

[Nathrangking]

2 hours ago, jofwu said:

Regarding your (a) and (b) points, I don't think we know enough about what causes Desolations, or about what the Heralds think about what causes them, to say this. It's possible that Radiants popping up and Gavilar's plans are related. It's possible that multiple things can (potentially, maybe) cause a Desolation. I think there are too many variables to assume we understand how all of their plans fit together. And I don't see any problem with Nale doing something less hands on than usual. Gavilar is the king. He can't kill Gavilar "hands on" without being guilty of regicide. But nothing in the law says he can't find somebody else who wants Gavilar dead and hook them up with a powerful assassin. I think it absolutely fits with who Nale is.

Nale and (probably) Kalak know that Szeth is there. They know he has an Honorblade. They're involved with him somehow. ("I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong." is certainly related to his statements about Szeth) Also note that they seem to be leaving and Nale says the feast is over (it wasn't) the very moment that the assassination picks up. They're totally aware of what's going on with Szeth. If you argue that someone else is responsible for connecting Szeth to the Parshendi, then you have to explain away this interaction and all of its implications. I find that very difficult to do.

Directly killing Gavilar is against his code, but getting someone else the means to do it isn't. Heralds are not normal beings, so it's entirely likely that they can use/interact with the listener rhythms. And they get the added bonus of the Alethi starting a war with the Parshendi. This ensures Gavilar's work isn't easily picked up and it probably leads to these non-Parshmen listeners being wiped out. That's probably a good thing, in their view, when it comes to making sure Desolations don't happen.

Nale/Ishar killing Radiants to prevent a Desolation doesn't imply that's the only thing that causes Desolations, or that the cause is so simple.

While I do agree that there is a great deal that we don't know about what starts  a desolation there are several things that we do know. 1st "the return" of the heralds is a signal of a coming, 2cnd is that this is something which the heralds themselves would be aware of. I would conjecture that perhaps if they would come out into the open that might well ( and I speculate wildly on this) bring about the desolations. 3rd we know in hindsight that in fact the events of that night spiraled into the desolation.  I might argue that the fact that they were even present was a trigger it may be a stretch, but it is still possible. That as a side note assuming that their reappearance may at least start a human push to fight in a desolation imagined or not I would be hard pressed to say that they would step into the light and support any one faction.

   On the matter of it being against Nale's code of honor to commit regicide I disagree. I think that that murder could easily be justified in his eyes if he saw fit to make it so. He is no stranger to murder when a crime has been  committed I don't see how this would be different if he decided that what Gavilar did in the past was deserving of the death penalty.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I would conjecture that perhaps if they would come out into the open that might well ( and I speculate wildly on this) bring about the desolations.

What? Either way they're there. If their presence is all that's needed, how does that presence being know matter in the slightest? 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Calderis

[Nathrangking]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

What? Either way they're there. If their presence is all that's needed, how does that presence being know matter in the slightest? 

My speculation on this matter rests on two fronts part a is that their presence could possibly be a trigger and as a result no matter what they do events are set ion motion that they cannot stop. Part b is that them being out in the the open might cause the men to do horrible things regardless of whether my first premise was correct. Meaning if they thought a desolation was coming even if it was not the collateral damage would be something that the heralds would want to avoid at all costs.

[Jofwu]

18 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

He is no stranger to murder when a crime has been  committed I don't see how this would be different if he decided that what Gavilar did in the past was deserving of the death penalty.

Based on Lift's interlude, Nale only executes people (Radiants) in places where he has legal authority to do so. He doesn't have legal authority to kill Gavilar, and so he would do it.

But in any case, there could be other reasons for the Heralds not doing it themselves. Like wanting to start a war, among other things we can only speculate on.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Based on Lift's interlude, Nale only executes people (Radiants) in places where he has legal authority to do so. He doesn't have legal authority to kill Gavilar, and so he would do it.

Yeah. He went out of his way in Azir to procure the proper paperwork and used loopholes so that his slaughter of a thief would be legal, and let Lift go when the Prime pardoned her. 

He follows the law explicitly. 

As the king of Alethkar, with the way the society is structured, I don't think it's possible for Gavilar to break the law. He, as king, is the source of law. So Nale cannot kill him. Period.

Allowing someone else to do it though... 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Calderis

[Nathrangking]

Just now, Calderis said:

Yeah. He went out of his way in Azir to procure the proper paperwork and used loopholes so that his slaughter of a thief would be legal, and let Lift go when the Prime pardoned her. 

He follows the law explicitly. 

As the king of Alethkar, with the way the society is structured, I don't think it's possible for Gavilar to break the law. He, as king, is the source of law. So Nale cannot kill him. Period. 

All this may be true of acts committed currently while he rules however, what of acts committed prior to his ascension? In theory if Nale found out about them after the fact he might be fair game.

[Calderis]

Just now, Nathrangking said:

All this may be true of acts committed currently while he rules however, what of acts committed prior to his ascension? In theory if Nale found out about them after the fact he might be fair game.

The King can pardon whoever he wishes. I strongly doubt that in Alethkar the Kings actions prior to becoming king have an valid punishment. 

[Nathrangking]

It may be doubtful, but not impossible. Also remember he would never think that prosecution or punishment was possible so he would never dream of the need to pardon himself. And in terms of valid punishment perhaps in the spirit of the law that holds true, but by the strictest standards which Nale holds dear who is to say.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

It may be doubtful, but not impossible. Also remember he would never think that prosecution or punishment was possible so he would never dream of the need to pardon himself. And in terms of valid punishment perhaps in the spirit of the law that holds true, but by the strictest standards which Nale holds dear who is to say.

Honestly, in the Alethi legal structure. Gavilar. Gavilar is who is to say. 

In order to kill Gavilar legally, Nale would need permission from... Gavilar.

[FollowYourMuse]

Regarding the voice that Kade hears. We k now that after taking storm form Eshonai hears voices and advice. 

Other voices heard we have seen are from spren to those they have bonded. 

The only other possibility I can think of might be a lightweaver, or truthwatcher  using sound illusion, though could be a herald with an honorblade with illumination also.

Edited August 25, 2017 by FollowYourMuse

[Nicrosil]

On 8/23/2017 at 7:52 PM, Andy92 said:

@Nicrosil I kind of doubt Gavilar set this up knowing the Parshendi would kill him. He sold everything really well if that was the case, because he tells Szeth "the Parshendi, but that doesn't make any sense" right before his death. He seemed genuinely confused as to why the Parshendi would want to assassinate him. 

...Well I feel like an idiot now. I need to figure out how to change my name to Eshu...

I still feel like there is some merit to Gavilar binding the third Bondsmith spren, and it being the mastermind behind everything. It might just be wishful thinking though...

[Andy92]

1 hour ago, Nicrosil said:

...Well I feel like an idiot now. I need to figure out how to change my name to Eshu...

I still feel like there is some merit to Gavilar binding the third Bondsmith spren, and it being the mastermind behind everything. It might just be wishful thinking though...

I believe Brandon has said that Gavilar was "on his way to becoming a Bondsmith," but I don't think he had made the actual leap to bonding one of the 3 "superspren" before his death. I do think there's some merit to your idea of Gavilar being influenced in some way, but at the same time (Mistborn spoilers):

Spoiler

since we've already had an entire trilogy dedicated to Ruin manipulating people, it would feel like a bit of a rehash if we get another series where Odium is just pulling all these strings behind the curtain. And I know that's what Shards can do at the end of the day, but I hope we don't end up with these big reveals in SA that just boil down to people doing bad things simply because Odium was making them do bad things. 

 

[Calderis]

@Andy92 I don't think we're going to get the same things. There's a couple of reasons that Odium can't do all the things that Ruin did. 

Spoilered for length and Mistborn stuff. 

Spoiler

Here's the two WoBs I was thinking of when I read your post. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1097#1

Quote

ZAS678

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

[misunderstands question as a question about kandra/koloss/parshendi] Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that’s what allows Odium to take control of them.

ZAS678

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created [Here it sounded like the mankind that's on that planet, not the specific generation], so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1158#7

Quote

BLIGHTSONG

Can Odium change written word on Roshar like Ruin could on Scadrial? (I was wondering this because it would make it easy for him to manipulate Mr.T that way.

BRANDON SANDERSON

*apprehensive* This is not really a thing that Odium does. Um, yea.

 

So I don't think you need to worry. Some things that Happened in Mistborn, Odium is actually incapable of doing on Roshar, and others are just not methods he uses. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Calderis

[+Wax]

Why is that night so important?

Was it because Gavilar's assasination was set up then?

Anybody else notice that the three prologues are in reverse order?

Gavilar's death

Jasnah's awakening on that night

Eshonai's realisation that the king had to die

I am guessing the next two prologues for the SA4 and SA5 will go into what was the root cause in reverse order as well.  Gavilar's assasination was what triggered off everything.  But, Gavilar was already having visions... so there must be something that would be a precursor leading to Eshonai's meeting with Gavilar.

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

6 minutes ago, axcellence said:

Why is that night so important?

At first it seemed because Gavilar's death kicked off everything else.

Later we slowly realize its very important because anyone who is anyone in Roshar seemed to be present that night, whether its Heralds, kings or secret societies.

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, axcellence said:

I am guessing the next two prologues for the SA4 and SA5 will go into what was the root cause in reverse order as well.  Gavilar's assasination was what triggered off everything.  But, Gavilar was already having visions... so there must be something that would be a precursor leading to Eshonai's meeting with Gavilar.

Before this Prologue, I wouldn't have thought so. Now... Yeah. I still think the last Prologue (of the first 5) will be Gavilar, but I think the next one will probably be Nale and open up a ton, leaving us with Gavilar to see when the visions started and how much he'd figured out. 

[Andy92]

47 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Andy92 I don't think we're going to get the same things. There's a couple of reasons that Odium can't do all the things that Ruin did. 

Spoilered for length and Mistborn stuff. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Here's the two WoBs I was thinking of when I read your post. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1097#1

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1158#7

 

So I don't think you need to worry. Some things that Happened in Mistborn, Ruin is actually incapable of doing on Roshar, and others are just not methods he uses. 

Thanks for helping clarify. I think Brandon's comments on that one show he's trying to come up with unique plots based on how Shards interact with the planet systems they're in, which is definitely good. 

[Nathrangking]

It is interesting that the prologues are moving backwards considering that the back five books will involve a nice jump forward in time. It looks to me like the nature of time and perspective is going under the magnifying glass and I find that fascinating. A Nale perspective might be interesting. In my personal opinion so would a Liss P.O.V prologue.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Nathrangking

[iamstick]

I can't help but think that the Heralds have been up to something. That so many would show up to that night? Clearly, Gavilar isn't aware of that though. 

Quote

“I've seen how that can be reversed. A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding”

He wants to summon them and they're all wandering up and down his hallways. Were they behind him getting the danger-orbs? Are they playing some kind of long game? Betraying mankind and Roshar again but in a new way? There's got to be more going on than just "we're going nutters". 

Quote

 

“I'm worried about Ash." (Shallash)
"You're worried about everything."
"She's getting worse. We weren't supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.”“Shut up."
"I don't like this. What we've done was wrong. That creature (Szeth) carries my lord's own Blade (Jezrien's). We shouldn't have let him keep it. He---" ...(Jasnah interrupts)...
"Come on!" the shorter man said, returning and taking the taller man by the arm.
He allowed himself to be pulled away.

 

So what have the Heralds done that was wrong? It sounds different to breaking the oathpact. Have they manipulated Gavilar to find and use the black spheres? There seems to be a story here that culminates in the  prologues and kicks off the new desolation. The idea of crafting a weapon from a Truthless with an Oathstone doesn't conceptualize until the diagram is in place, long after Szeth became truthless and was already used to assassinate Gavilar (by the Parshendi in general and Klade and Venli specifically). We know for sure that any Herald conspiracy predates the diagram as Taravangian hasn't yet been to the Night Watcher on that night.

[WhiteLeeopard]

The one person that we haven't yet seen that night is Hoid. Which is beyond unusual. Considering he can manage to be present at relatively unimportant events, I find it hard to believe he missed the most important night of the decade in Cosmere terms, unless his chromium medallions were completely tapped out. 

[hypatia]

My problem is I can't see Gavilar as a great king, only as a great warlord.

He has undoubtly reached his goal - Alethkar is (more or less) united after a period of war.

But now he has no idea how to consolidate this without war, how to make a real kingdom out of this premise.

There is more to a king than war - new laws, building a new society, making new bonds first in Alethkar and than with other countries.

All i all - he isn't Bondsmith material.

[maxal]

2 hours ago, hypatia said:

My problem is I can't see Gavilar as a great king, only as a great warlord.

He has undoubtly reached his goal - Alethkar is (more or less) united after a period of war.

But now he has no idea how to consolidate this without war, how to make a real kingdom out of this premise.

There is more to a king than war - new laws, building a new society, making new bonds first in Alethkar and than with other countries.

All i all - he isn't Bondsmith material.

Gavilar and Taravangian seems to adhere to the idea unity justifies all means. They will think blood shed, warring and burning country sides is justified if it helps what remains of main kind to stand united under their careful leadership.

What I find interesting is how Dalinar takes the completely opposite approaches towards the end of WoR where he completely rejects the Blackthorn's former ways. He reputes the war they did, he claimed the kingdom they created is weak because of how they claimed it: by making everyone bow down to the strongest, meanest, baddest man, they invite the next stronger, meaner and badder man to challenge its rule.

I would argue the "I will not divide" part of the first oath should invalidate the imperative to unite at all costs.