[OB] Oathbringer Prologue now on Tor.com

[Elena]

14 hours ago, Andy92 said:

@Nicrosil I kind of doubt Gavilar set this up knowing the Parshendi would kill him. He sold everything really well if that was the case, because he tells Szeth "the Parshendi, but that doesn't make any sense" right before his death. He seemed genuinely confused as to why the Parshendi would want to assassinate him. 

Agreed on this for the most part, but one bit of the "Gavilar was a martyr" theory I really like was that @Nicrosil suggested he could be bond to a spren. I don't personally believe that's the case, but I do think *someone* was probably orchestrating the whole thing behind the scenes - or else why did Szeth get into the hands of the Parshendi right as they needed him? Sounds like too big a coincidence to be one. Maybe it was the rogue Herald who made sure the assasination could happen exactly as it did, making sure Gavilar couldn't possibly have survived and giving a terrifying demonstration of Surgebinding all in one.

Also I may have missed this from early in the thread but: has anyone considered that maybe the Weeper (Szeth's previous owner) may have been involved somehow? Maybe as an early Surgebinder, maybe as an other Herald? 

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Elena said:

Also I may have missed this from early in the thread but: has anyone considered that maybe the Weeper (Szeth's previous owner) may have been involved somehow? Maybe as an early Surgebinder, maybe as an other Herald? 

It's not in this thread, but there is a theory (or two really) that Liss is Chana and/or has Taln's Blade. 

[Stark]

1 hour ago, Advanthera said:

Also - do we know how Szeth got his Oathstone back? Would he have needed to talk to the five before he left?

It is mentioned in both Szeth and Eshonai's interludes - they threw it away when they left the city while Szeth was killing.  He had to wander the roads outside the city to find it, then stand on the side of the road with it until someone passed and offer it to them.

 

They didn't keep it or stick around to see if he succeeded, and he had to find a new master because they abandoned him.

[Advanthera]

10 minutes ago, Stark said:

It is mentioned in both Szeth and Eshonai's interludes - they threw it away when they left the city while Szeth was killing.  He had to wander the roads outside the city to find it, then stand on the side of the road with it until someone passed and offer it to them.

 

They didn't keep it or stick around to see if he succeeded, and he had to find a new master because they abandoned him.

Thanks! I half figured it was mentioned and I had just forgotten.

[Andy92]

39 minutes ago, Elena said:

I don't personally believe that's the case, but I do think *someone* was probably orchestrating the whole thing behind the scenes - or else why did Szeth get into the hands of the Parshendi right as they needed him?

This thought did cross my mind after reading this new prologue. It seems really, really convenient that a trained assassin with the powers of Surgebinding just "happened" to be there that night. I was surprised to learn that the Parshendi hired Szeth the same day as the feast. I always assumed they plotted that out for a long time. This prologue PoV makes the whole thing look really rushed - suspiciously rushed.

[Nathrangking]

Now I know that this is a minor point, but I think that it is interesting to note that Eshonai states that "She'd always imagined humans- as sung of in songs- as dark formless monsters." This course of description is a familiar one as this is what many believed to in fact  be the form of the voidbringers. We now know that is in fact the parshendi who are in fact the voidbringers. I am curious how the traditions came to line up despite the separation of millennia between their encounters.

The fact that she says that they are in fact "wonderful bizarre creatures". Creates a sharp contrast to the way the Alethi the parshendi (ie savages). This point of contrast may in fact be there simply to help the story along or maybe there is more to the connection between men and the Parshendi than we see initially. Can it be that there is a subconscious collective memory at play that combined with Alethi bias creates a scenario which is ripe for the arrival of a desolation?

 

[Calderis]

17 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Now I know that this is a minor point, but I think that it is interesting to note that Eshonai states that "She'd always imagined humans- as sung of in songs- as dark formless monsters." This course of description is a familiar one as this is what many believed to in fact  be the form of the voidbringers. We now know that is in fact the parshendi who are in fact the voidbringers. I am curious how the traditions came to line up despite the separation of millennia between their encounters.

I think the similarity is remarkably ironic because they use the same terminology to mean opposite things. 

The humans were described as dark and formless because they lack Parshendi forms (in my opinion). From the perspective of the Listeners, humans most be odd. They do everything without any specialization. 

The Voidbringers are called formless for exactly the opposite reason. We're used to having a fixed body. Fighting against something that changes shape and capabilities is completely unnerving. How do you learn what to expect? 

[Rhaegar'Elin]

On 23/8/2017 at 0:01 AM, maxal said:

I am starting to think Brandon is actually trying to mislead us: because we are reading Dalinar's viewpoints, we have come to see the Kholins as the good people, the protagonists, but what if we are wrong? I say, Gavilar, Dalinar, they weren't the good guys within this story: they were the invaders, they shed first blood, they were the bad guys, the antagonists. Yes, Dalinar has turned his back on those days, but it would be good to remember his branch of the Kholin family took the princedom, it would good to remember it may be they terminated competing branches of their own family. And yeah for those wandering, the tip bit about other branches of the Kholin family existing, it came from Reddit.

Except fort the info on the Kholin family, the other things you state were pretty obvious: they were the conqueror and, to conquest, they had to invade the other Princedoms. Of course they were the antagonists (from other Highprinces prospective) but does this means they are the bad guys like you seem to imply?

I'm not very good with English language, so I want to assure you I'm not accusing you (or having some kind of unpleasant attitude toward you) but just trying to understand your thoughts on the matter: do you think Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar or Napoleon (to name a few) were "bad guys"? They, like the Kholins, were the conquerors, the invaders, the one that shed first blood.

Sure, in our times they would be despicable... but then (like on Roshar) were different times. And Alethkar is a very martial driven nation: if even Dalinar and Gavilar fought a branch of their family (and they, also, could not share deep blood relations like many cadet branch) for the Princedom I really can't see them as the evil ones (of course, they would be if they had treacherously slaughtered them... but so far we don't know).

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's not in this thread, but there is a theory (or two really) that Liss is Chana and/or has Taln's Blade. 

If that's true I have an issue: why taking Taln's Blade and not Jezrien's?

I mean, I think she would have noticed the same way Kalak (?) did: "That creature carries my Lord's Blade!" (or something along the line).

[Grahamfactor]

So it seems like the big question from the Oathbringer prologue is "who set up the Parshendi to have Gavilar assassinated?"

We have a number of suspects: Venli, Nale/Kalak ("What we have done is wrong"), Odium or some unseen being in the Cognitive Realm, or the folks that Gavilar originally suspected--Sadeas, Restares, or Thaidakar.

I was listening to TWoK yesterday and something Elhokar said jumped out at me:

“They’re trying to kill me,” Elhokar said softly, huddling down in his armor. “They’ll see me dead, like my father. Sometimes I do wonder if we’re chasing after the ten fools here. The assassin in white—he was Shin.” “The Parshendi took responsibility for sending him,” Sadeas said. “Yes,” Elhokar replied. “And yet they are savages, and easily manipulated. It would be a perfect distraction, pinning the blame on a group of parshmen. We go to war for years and years, never noticing the real villains, working quietly in my own camp. They watch me. Always. Waiting. I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman …”

We usually interpret this passage as evidence that Elhokar is being followed by Cryptics, similar to several other characters who are living lies.  But it struck me that Brandon may also be foreshadowing that someone inside the Alethi court is responsible for Gavilar's murder.  Or perhaps he is foreshadowing that there are evil spren manipulating everything?

Anyone have any theories on people in the Alethi court or otherwise who might have the motive and ability to speak in the minds of the Parshendi?

Edited August 24, 2017 by Grahamfactor

[Jofwu]

I'm of the opinion that the Heralds (particularly Nale/Kalak) are behind the Voice. I suspect they more or less know what Gavilar is up to, so they decide to have him killed. They have the motivation and likely the ability to speak through the rhythms.

Venli could very well be involved somehow, but I don't think she set all of this up. I don't see how it could be any regular human.

Team Odium is the second best option. Odium himself or an Unmade most likely. But I don't see why Gavilar's assassination was an important step in bringing the Everstorm. We could easily have come around to the same point a thousand different ways. It's entirely possible it may have happened sooner with him alive. I just don't see enough motivation I guess.

[WhiteLeeopard]

7 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

If a Herald was involved, we need to ask ourselves which one. You guessed Ishar. I am not entirely onboard there

This is an interesting point, but for other reasons. If Ishar did betray the Heralds (big if) running around the palace conspiring to bring the Desolation back, at the same time half the Heralds are there seems the height of imprudence. 

On the part that Nale/Kalak are the ones before the assasination...the one part I never got is why didn't they (both the parshendi and whoever manipulated them) just have Szeth assasinate Gavilar quietly then pretend ignorance? If removing Gavilar and the threat he posed was all they wanted, better to do it quietly than to point the Alethi like an arrow to the Parshendi, considering how when backed to a wall the Parshendi always have a very dangerous last escape.

[Pattern]

11 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

If removing Gavilar and the threat he posed was all they wanted, better to do it quietly than to point the Alethi like an arrow to the Parshendi, considering how when backed to a wall the Parshendi always have a very dangerous last escape.

That's probably for the same reason Szeth had to wear white. In Parshendi tradition an assassination attempt has to be in the open, the one to be killed must have the possibility to see the assassin and defend himself. So sometimes strong adherence to cultural boundaries does not yield the best results. A silent assassination would have been better but it is something like a taboo in Parshendi culture.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Pattern said:

That's probably for the same reason Szeth had to wear white. In Parshendi tradition an assassination attempt has to be in the open, the one to be killed must have the possibility to see the assassin and defend himself. So sometimes strong adherence to cultural boundaries does not yield the best results. A silent assassination would have been better but it is something like a taboo in Parshendi culture.

That's the whole point of the question though. Nale/Kalak were behind it, why hand Szeth off at all? Why not just have Szeth do the deed quietly and be done without miring the Parshendi in the mix? 

The only explanation I can think of is that Nale follows the letter of the law, and not the spirit. It was perfectly legal for a slave to be delivered into the hands of the Parshendi, whereas assassination is clearly not. 

[Ciridae]

Maybe Nale tried to kill two birds with one stone. Orchestrate Gavilar's assassination to stop his plans, and make the Listeners do it to start a war that he expected them to lose, causing the extinction of the last free Listeners. No meddling Gavilar, no potential Everstorm summoners. I'm sure he could have twisted the law to fit what he believed he needed to do. Not sure I believe he was responsible, but if he was, this could have been his motivation. 

[Pattern]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's the whole point of the question though. Nale/Kalak were behind it, why hand Szeth off at all? Why not just have Szeth do the deed quietly and be done without miring the Parshendi in the mix? 

Then it's an indication that Nale/Kalak probably have nothing to do with it. The voice in the Rhythms should come somewhere from the Spiritual Realm anyways, since the Rhythms originate there themselves. I don't think that the heralds as cognitive shadows can really use the Spiritual Realm.

Spoiler SH

Spoiler

Compare with Kelsiers difficulties taking a glimpse of the Spiritual Realm in Secret History

I think it more likely that Odium (why should he though, Gavilar is on the best way to bring the desired desolation) or Cultivation (trying to prevent a desolation) intervened there. In the end the assassination didn't matter at all (seven years is not that long a delay, just enough time for Kaladin and Shallan to get out of their diapers), Taravangian has it right in his diagram: The desolation needs no usher. It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon.

The real reason for the desolation is not disclosed yet. Perhaps Taln cracking is enough for the desolation to come. The red lightning spren were in highstorms even before Eshonai bound a storm spren. The everstorm is a new thing but of old design. It is special for this desolation and a result of the Parshendi in stormform summoning it. But even without the summoned everstorm a new desolation could have been possible. Then perhaps the parshmen still would be inert though.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Pattern

[Calderis]

@Pattern I agree. I don't feel the methodology fits with Nale. He seems to be an exceptionally hands on type. 

I don't know exactly who benefits from this course of action, but I'm very interested. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Calderis

[Frostlander]

After reading the Prologue, it's really interesting to see the sections of the Diagram that almost seem to be working out in real time that Gavilar/Sons of Honor were wrong:

Quote

"Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia" Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: Pattern 1

1

There are a couple of others, but I almost wonder if a lot of the Diagram was working out this alternative view. I'm sure this has been brought up, but the Prologue really brought it into focus.

Ninja'd! 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Frostlander

[Nathrangking]

25 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I'm of the opinion that the Heralds (particularly Nale/Kalak) are behind the Voice. I suspect they more or less know what Gavilar is up to, so they decide to have him killed. They have the motivation and likely the ability to speak through the rhythms.

Venli could very well be involved somehow, but I don't think she set all of this up. I don't see how it could be any regular human.

Team Odium is the second best option. Odium himself or an Unmade most likely. But I don't see why Gavilar's assassination was an important step in bringing the Everstorm. We could easily have come around to the same point a thousand different ways. It's entirely possible it may have happened sooner with him alive. I just don't see enough motivation I guess.

I must humbly disagree. What angle would the Heralds have had to cause his assassination? Nale and Kalak did not seem overly pleased that Szeth was in possession of Jezrien's blade would they then really send him to use it. While I can hear the possibilities set that @Calderis and @Ciridae present, but I further submit that if this was their idea then a)Ishar would have had no need to suggest that Nale start taking out Radiants. b) Nale would have had no need to take any action to stop a desolation which he according to that interpretation he already took steps to end. Also as @Pattern and @Calderis pointed out his is a far more hands on style which runs counter to what we see with Gavilar's assassination. 

[Pattern]

Funny thing is, that Taravangian probably also was at the meeting where Gavilar disclosed his visions and plans. He must have been against the plan from the beginning and distanced himself from the group. Otherwise the diagram should be Obviously we were fools...

Edited August 24, 2017 by Pattern

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Funny thing is, that Taravangian probably also was at the meeting where Gavilar disclosed his visions and plans. He must have been against the plan from the beginning and distanced himself from the group. Otherwise the diagram should be Obviously we were fools...

I agree here. I think he, whether he voiced it or not, understood the gravity of what Gavilar was attempting better than Gavilar did himself. Even with Gavilar's death, Taravangian knew the others would continue his work. 

Even if he agreed with them, his fear of what would be unleashed drove him to the Nightwatcher to ask for the "capacity" to save people from what was coming. 

[Nathrangking]

It is possible that there was rift created between Taravangian and the sons of honor due to his disapproval of what they wanted to do. If in fact this is what went through his mind then it could explain why he went to the Nightwatcher. Conceivably he might also have lost confidence in the ability of the sons of honor to carry out their plan once Gavilar had been killed. Taravangian does not call the other members of the cabal friend which might indicate what he thought of the others with whom Gavilar associated. This might have driven him to find an alternative which in turn could have led him to go to the Nightwatcher. Only time will tell what the truth of his thought process really was.

[Storyspren]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think the similarity is remarkably ironic because they use the same terminology to mean opposite things. 

The humans were described as dark and formless because they lack Parshendi forms (in my opinion). From the perspective of the Listeners, humans most be odd. They do everything without any specialization. 

The Voidbringers are called formless for exactly the opposite reason. We're used to having a fixed body. Fighting against something that changes shape and capabilities is completely unnerving. How do you learn what to expect? 

It could very well be that - 

Humans: Radiant:voidbringers

Parshmen: Storm form/ other forms of power :voidbringers 

But the parshendi, who hid in dull form kept some knowledge in the form of (haha) their songs, whereas humans had folks actively messing up their knowledge base. 

 

 

[maxal]

5 hours ago, Rhaegar'Elin said:

Except fort the info on the Kholin family, the other things you state were pretty obvious: they were the conqueror and, to conquest, they had to invade the other Princedoms. Of course they were the antagonists (from other Highprinces prospective) but does this means they are the bad guys like you seem to imply?

I'm not very good with English language, so I want to assure you I'm not accusing you (or having some kind of unpleasant attitude toward you) but just trying to understand your thoughts on the matter: do you think Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar or Napoleon (to name a few) were "bad guys"? They, like the Kholins, were the conquerors, the invaders, the one that shed first blood.

Sure, in our times they would be despicable... but then (like on Roshar) were different times. And Alethkar is a very martial driven nation: if even Dalinar and Gavilar fought a branch of their family (and they, also, could not share deep blood relations like many cadet branch) for the Princedom I really can't see them as the evil ones (of course, they would be if they had treacherously slaughtered them... but so far we don't know)

Do I consider Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Napoleon to have been the bad guys? In a way, yes. What need did they have to conquer half the world if it weren't for their personal glory or the glory of their hometown? Is invading another land ever justified? Taking up arms, fighting the people, killing them just so what they have could become yours? Has there ever been a line of reasoning which makes it alright? Just because history remembers those men as great does not mean they were: it means history loves victors and they always get to write it.

And no, just because princedoms have been fighting over their borders does not make Gavilar potentially slaughtering other branches of his family to claim the princedom alright. It also does not make his invading of countries, his destroying of villages, towns, the death toll he left behind him alright. 

It is thus, from my perspective, Gavilar/Dalinar Kholin were the bad guys: they brought war to their own country, they built it over the blood of its people and they hope it will stand united, but it can't. Not as it is, how can it when the only reason it even stands is because you killed all opposition?

[frozndevl]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

And no, just because princedoms have been fighting over their borders does not make Gavilar potentially slaughtering other branches of his family to claim the princedom alright. It also does not make his invading of countries, his destroying of villages, towns, the death toll he left behind him alright. 

Apparently I need to pay more attention to Vorinism, but in general, is there a set of morals and values in place on Roshar right now similar to our generally Judeo-Christian set? I ask because what is moral for us, may not be moral for another civilization. I ask because if that type of action is condoned within their society, he wouldn't be considered "bad" by his contemporaries, which is what matters in regards to the book. We, as readers, are another story though.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

Apparently I need to pay more attention to Vorinism, but in general, is there a set of morals and values in place on Roshar right now similar to our generally Judeo-Christian set? I ask because what is moral for us, may not be moral for another civilization. I ask because if that type of action is condoned within their society, he wouldn't be considered "bad" by his contemporaries, which is what matters in regards to the book. We, as readers, are another story though.

Generally no there's not. We've seen the tenants of Vorinism. You choose a calling and a Virtue and you strive to Excell at those things and only those things. So you make yourself exceedingly well specialized at your chosen role and one thing considered a virtue, and all else be damned. 

It's a really messed up system if you think about it.