[OB] Oathbringer Prologue now on Tor.com

[Storyspren]

Just chiming in with a few ideas:

1) The future combatants are not specified, so why not humans AND parshendi United against Odium? That would help strengthen the justification of the treaty while trying to bring about war. 

2) The last book (not counting the novella) ended with the introduction of nightblood, who talks in people's minds, into storm light. The prologue mentions a voice in someone's mind. Coincidence? We've seen nightblood in the hands of minor characters before and what did it do? Try to get back into the hands of a major character. Who better than Szeth to slay evil?

3) GAvilar was working with a herald, but which? We have three candidates for potential heralds at the meeting one basically random dude and two random chicks. I like elhokar 's wife, who we already know Kasnah suspects of something, for one of the chicks. Or maybe Dalinar 's former wife; she's super sketch. Probably not both. Are there any princes who we've seen wear old school uniforms? If so, that'll be the current identity of our rogue Herald.

4) why are all those Heralds there if the Gavilar brigade is trying to force then out of hiding? Was Gavilar being double crossed by his own (herald) informant?

 

 

 

[Jofwu]

@eveorjoy those are some really good observations. Yes, if Amaram interpreted the visions that way, it's likely that Gavilar did too, I think.

@Ciridae I really like the idea that Venli may have played a role convincing Gavilar that they want their gods back!

@yulerule Discord: https://discord.gg/7rTvZnK

 

[Calderis]

32 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

3) GAvilar was working with a herald, but which?

Why do we think this? 

[Nathrangking]

1 hour ago, Storyspren said:

Just chiming in with a few ideas:

1) The future combatants are not specified, so why not humans AND parshendi United against Odium? That would help strengthen the justification of the treaty while trying to bring about war. 

2) The last book (not counting the novella) ended with the introduction of nightblood, who talks in people's minds, into storm light. The prologue mentions a voice in someone's mind. Coincidence? We've seen nightblood in the hands of minor characters before and what did it do? Try to get back into the hands of a major character. Who better than Szeth to slay evil?

3) GAvilar was working with a herald, but which? We have three candidates for potential heralds at the meeting one basically random dude and two random chicks. I like elhokar 's wife, who we already know Kasnah suspects of something, for one of the chicks. Or maybe Dalinar 's former wife; she's super sketch. Probably not both. Are there any princes who we've seen wear old school uniforms? If so, that'll be the current identity of our rogue Herald.

4) why are all those Heralds there if the Gavilar brigade is trying to force then out of hiding? Was Gavilar being double crossed by his own (herald) informant?

 

 

 

Save for possibly the first idea which fits kind of well with Gavilar's plan. I am curious where you derived your other ideas from.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Storyspren said:

2) The last book (not counting the novella) ended with the introduction of nightblood, who talks in people's minds, into storm light. The prologue mentions a voice in someone's mind. Coincidence? We've seen nightblood in the hands of minor characters before and what did it do? Try to get back into the hands of a major character. Who better than Szeth to slay evil?

This one is actually a pretty cool idea, and I can see how you're brain got there. 

We know Nale had Nightblood to give to Szeth eventually, and Nale was at the feast so he was close by. 

I don't think it would work for two reasons though. Nightblood would have to have learned about Szeth's abilities from Nale (plausible as it seems that he and Kalak know he has the Honorblade). I wonder if Nightblood could hold the entirety of that thought long enough to properly convey it to Klade though, he doesn't seem to be remarkably skilled at retaining new information. 

Secondly, in order for him to speak into Klade's mind, wouldn't Klade have to be holding him? I may be wrong, but I don't know of anyone having heard his voice who wasn't in physical contact with him. 

I seriously doubt that Nightblood was just momentarily in the hands of the Parshendi. 

[Nathrangking]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This one is actually a pretty cool idea, and I can see how you're brain got there. 

We know Nale had Nightblood to give to Szeth eventually, and Nale was at the feast so he was close by. 

I don't think it would work for two reasons though. Nightblood would have to have learned about Szeth's abilities from Nale (plausible as it seems that he and Kalak know he has the Honorblade). I wonder if Nightblood could hold the entirety of that thought long enough to properly convey it to Klade though, he doesn't seem to be remarkably skilled at retaining new information. 

Secondly, in order for him to speak into Klade's mind, wouldn't Klade have to be holding him? I may be wrong, but I don't know of anyone having heard his voice who wasn't in physical contact with him. 

I seriously doubt that Nightblood was just momentarily in the hands of the Parshendi. 

Yes I can see that logic and why he might think that to be the case. I agree that it would be an interesting thing to see and I also agree as to why it would be unlikely. To expand just a little bit even if Klade could have held nightblood and nightblood could in fact retain the information to feed to him, I find it unlikely that nightblood could attune to the rhythms in such a way that he would be fooled into listening to it. The precision and subtlety necessary for that to succeed is not something that we have seen from nightblood which has been blunt as far as I seen at least quite blunt and as precise as using a flamethrower to light a candle.

[king of nowhere]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned,as this thread is growing faster than I can read it, but does it mean there are two balc spehres? gavilar told eshoonai that she could keep the black sphere. then as he died he gave a black sphere to szeth. did eshonai refuse to take the sphere? did gavilar had 2 (which may explain why he gave one to eshonai so easily)?

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I don't know if this has already been mentioned,as this thread is growing faster than I can read it, but does it mean there are two balc spehres? gavilar told eshoonai that she could keep the black sphere. then as he died he gave a black sphere to szeth. did eshonai refuse to take the sphere? did gavilar had 2 (which may explain why he gave one to eshonai so easily)?

Yes. In the original version of the prologue we saw he told her "keep it, I have another" 

[Storyspren]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

This one is actually a pretty cool idea, and I can see how you're brain got there. 

We know Nale had Nightblood to give to Szeth eventually, and Nale was at the feast so he was close by. 

I don't think it would work for two reasons though. Nightblood would have to have learned about Szeth's abilities from Nale (plausible as it seems that he and Kalak know he has the Honorblade). I wonder if Nightblood could hold the entirety of that thought long enough to properly convey it to Klade though, he doesn't seem to be remarkably skilled at retaining new information. 

Secondly, in order for him to speak into Klade's mind, wouldn't Klade have to be holding him? I may be wrong, but I don't know of anyone having heard his voice who wasn't in physical contact with him. 

I seriously doubt that Nightblood was just momentarily in the hands of the Parshendi. 

1) I don't think nightblood has to be held to talk to someone or read their mind. The best example is the guy who fished him out of the water. But as it is presumably almost entirely encased in an aluminum sheath, contact shouldn't every be necessary.

2) If nightblood was anywhere near someone who knew about Szeth or Szeth himself I think that the sword would want to get to him just for evil slaying. This sort of assumes Vasher somehow gives nightblood up or loses it somehow. But anyway I think nale might have been near that slave auction on this theory. But my leading candidate for the hypothetical Gavilar meeting herald is ishar.

 

 

 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

1) I don't think nightblood has to be held to talk to someone or read their mind. The best example is the guy who fished him out of the water. But as it is presumably almost entirely encased in an aluminum sheath, contact shouldn't every be necessary.

For reading minds it requires even more than physical contact. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1037#8

Quote

QUESTION

How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds.

Perhaps contact was the wrong word choice, but the proximity was always close. I don't think it would work how you want it to. 

[Storyspren]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Why do we think this? 

Oh right, I think a herald was there because of the detailed information Gavilar has about so many things. Plus two captured void spren when they basically just invented the Rosharan equivalent of the light bulb (I mean the small heating). His info is herald level, or maybe from some returned that's been hanging around or a shard. I just assume whatever entity was feeding big G info would be at that meeting.

[Calderis]

Just now, Storyspren said:

Oh right, I think a herald was there because of the detailed information Gavilar has about so many things. Plus two captured void spren when they basically just invented the Rosharan equivalent of the light bulb (I mean the small heating). His info is herald level, or maybe from some returned that's been hanging around or a shard. I just assume whatever entity was feeding big G info would be at that meeting.

And considering one ofhis main goals is to bring about the return of the Heralds, it seems likely that having one communicate with him directly would prove the need for a desolation unnecessary. 

We need more than assumptions before stating he's working with a Herald. 

[Storyspren]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

For reading minds it requires even more than physical contact. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1037#8

Perhaps contact was the wrong word choice, but the proximity was always close. I don't think it would work how you want it to. 

That's really interesting. When the random dude fishes nightblood out of the water prior to doing so nightblood directs him to the right spot. Not only does that mean nightblood talks to him but that he read the guys mind to gauge the needed vector... Or that's what I had thought. Maybe nightblood can see inquisition style or maybe that illegal fishing dude wasnt as random as he seemed?

[Storyspren]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And considering one ofhis main goals is to bring about the return of the Heralds, it seems likely that having one communicate with him directly would prove the need for a desolation unnecessary. 

We need more than assumptions before stating he's working with a Herald. 

So it says get them out of hiding in the new version Which is more compatible with there maybe being one not in hiding. But I was actually thinking the Herald in Gavilar's company might be under cover or at least lying to him. 

You're right of course. Wild speculation. 

[Nicrosil]

I have a crackpot theory, but I haven't read the entire thread to see if someone's already thought of this, so I apologize if I'm repeating something. 

Gavilar is not insane. He got the exact same visions Dalinar did, but he figured out the Parshendi were voidbringers. I don't even think he knows how to unleash the Unmade; he bluffed to Eshonai knowing that the Five would assassinate him, leading to a vengance war against the Parshendi. It would unite the highprinces by creating a common enemy. This doesn't answer what the black spheres are, nor how Gavilar knows so much, but what if Gavilar was already a Bondsmith? What if this ancient, powerful spren gave Gavilar all this information? Gavilar and his spren engineered his assassination to make him the martyr that would unite them and last beyond his death by making the Parshendi a common enemy. I even propose that Gavilar's mystery spren is the one who told Klade about Szeth; if I'm right Gavilar's knowledge of the Parshendi comes from his spren; it's not much of a stretch to say that this large, powerful fragment of investiture could speak in Rhythms a la Ruin.

Oh, there's a meta-point against this theory, but it's spoilery for Mistborn.

Spoiler

I'm not sure if Brandon would do the whole martyr thing twice after Kelsier in mistborn.

Also, this doesn't make Gavilar a good guy; he sentenced the Parshendi to genocide. I think he regrets it though; if we get an alternate point of view from Gavilar, I wouldn't be surprised if his though process mirrors Eshonai's in the moments up to his assasssination.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Nicrosil

[Nathrangking]

Mind you the impact of his power can also be said to been to have been what led the fisherman to the location without proximity. 

1 minute ago, Storyspren said:

So it says get them out of hiding in the new version Which is more compatible with there maybe being one not in hiding. But I was actually thinking the Herald in Gavilar's company might be under cover or at least lying to him. 

You're right of course. Wild speculation. 

It is a reasonable speculation, but the evidence for it does not seem to be there. Not only would that situation as @Calderis pointed out mean that a desolation would not be necessary, but to do such a thing would necessarily work against the herald's desire to step out of the spotlight/ end the cycle of desolations. 

[Frostlander]

21 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And considering one ofhis main goals is to bring about the return of the Heralds, it seems likely that having one communicate with him directly would prove the need for a desolation unnecessary. 

We need more than assumptions before stating he's working with a Herald. 

So it says get them out of hiding in the new version Which is more compatible with there maybe being one not in hiding. But I was actually thinking the Herald in Gavilar's company might be under cover or at least lying to him. 

You're right of course. Wild speculation. 

At this point, it's hard to rule anything out. A traitorous Herald looking to bring about a True desolation could be lying about a lot of things: their identity, what was required to bring a desolation, etc.

Whoever was communicating with Gavilar may have suspected that Taln was going to break soon and set Gavilar up to make this an extra-special "True" desolation, unlike any other. The desolation was going to happen anyway. The person with this knowledge needed to wait for the right time, a good con, and some sphere-shaped weapons in the hands of dangerous people. 

Essentially, we can split suspects into two groups: those we can envision having access to this knowledge: Heralds, Nightwatchered folk, an early Truthwatcher(?), someone connected to an Adonalsiumspren? On the other side are people we can't consider yet because we are missing too many pieces of the puzzle to include them. The scope of the books just got much wider, and just thinking about the surprises we got in WoR (the existence of the Diagram!!), leaves a lot still out there.

[Andy92]

@Nicrosil I kind of doubt Gavilar set this up knowing the Parshendi would kill him. He sold everything really well if that was the case, because he tells Szeth "the Parshendi, but that doesn't make any sense" right before his death. He seemed genuinely confused as to why the Parshendi would want to assassinate him. 

[maxal]

21 hours ago, Andy92 said:

I had the same thought when I was reading it. I always kinda dreaded a future book that focused on Eshonai because the discussion of the forms/ways Parshendi communicate through rhythm just wasn't that fun to read about. But it did seem more fluid in this prologue. Part of it might be because now that Brandon established how the Parshendi communicate in WoR, he doesn't have to use as many words to explain what's going on this time around. Whatever it exactly is, I noticed the same thing. 

I am glad I was not the only one to notice. I am definitely pleased Brandon took heed of commentaries from his readers about their difficulties to latch onto the Parshendis chapters.

18 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Maybe he was being watched by Cryptics, same as his son would later be.

Love this.

10 hours ago, jofwu said:

Here's something I've been wondering about this morning... What's the purpose of this treaty?

It sounds like Gavilar's plan is to release the Parshendi gods, bring on the Everstorm/Desolation, summon the Heralds and Radiants, and duke it out with the Voidbringers once and for all. He more or less confides this plan to Eshonai and bid her share it with the Five.

So what purpose does the treaty serve?

In TWoK, Jasnah supposes that he was after their Shardblades, but I don't see how that fits here. And I don't see any other great answers.

It may be the treaty is genuine. While the flashbacks will highlight how Gavilar has been obsessed over the ability of his kingdom to outlast him for decades, it may be he only found the one solution he approves of after meeting with the Parshendis. It may be Gavilar crafted his plan to launch a Desolation in between the time the treaty was being negotiated and the time it was being celebrated. Likely, he had many pieces of the puzzle already, but it is likely the Parshendis inadvertently gave him the missing pieces.

This being said, I totally think Gavilar had a hidden intent to get his hands onto the Parshendi's Shards. Definitely. 

[Nathrangking]

6 minutes ago, maxal said:

I am glad I was not the only one to notice. I am definitely pleased Brandon took heed of commentaries from his readers about their difficulties to latch onto the Parshendis chapters.

Love this.

It may be the treaty is genuine. While the flashbacks will highlight how Gavilar has been obsessed over the ability of his kingdom to outlast him for decades, it may be he only found the one solution he approves of after meeting with the Parshendis. It may be Gavilar crafted his plan to launch a Desolation in between the time the treaty was being negotiated and the time it was being celebrated. Likely, he had many pieces of the puzzle already, but it is likely the Parshendis inadvertently gave him the missing pieces.

This being said, I totally think Gavilar had a hidden intent to get his hands onto the Parshendi's Shards. Definitely. 

It is possible that this was the goal, but then the question becomes was that something which he thought would be worth potential blow back if he fails to do so? we have no knowledge of how many shards that they had and whether that would precipitate a risky gambit against a people whose customs and levels of diplomatic/warfare skill he has little understanding of. It seems a bit of a risk for little enough reward as far as we know. Though that being said the theory is an interesting one that I hope is explored further.

[Storyspren]

25 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

It is possible that this was the goal, but then the question becomes was that something which he thought would be worth potential blow back if he fails to do so? we have no knowledge of how many shards that they had and whether that would precipitate a risky gambit against a people whose customs and levels of diplomatic/warfare skill he has little understanding of. It seems a bit of a risk for little enough reward as far as we know. Though that being said the theory is an interesting one that I hope is explored further.

So on board with the treaty being genuine. I want that to be true and the well placed adversary(ies) so weren't playing that homey.

 

[Pattern]

11 hours ago, Azul said:

While I agree this likely indicates he was present at the feast the existence of spanreeds means its not 100% conclusive. It is possible, however unlikely, that Galivar sent him the info via spanreed on the day he was killed.

This would be something nobody secretive would send via spanreed, where gossiping scribes have to read and write the messages.

[Zalocx]

I *really* don't think Aesudan is one of the two women in the meeting. We know from the interludes in WoR that she is basically a hedonist that bribes ardents and pays lip service at best to the Almighty. I don't see someone like that being part of the Sons of Honor. Whatever else Gavilar, Amaram, and Restares are, they are essentially Vorinism fundamentalists. Someone who cajoles priests to tell her she's not failing miserably at her faith is probably not gonna hang out with people so self righteous they think bringing about the apocalypse is a good trade if it brings God and his champions and the authority of the Church back. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Zalocx
Typos

[Advanthera]

Just caught up on everything. SO excited to be back reading this series  I hadn't read the prologue yet, so this was my first read through of it.

I noticed discussion a while back on if Gavilar could talk in rhythms or not, and thought I'd drop this quote in (didn't seem mentioned yet)

Quote

Why did he smile at her like that? What was he hiding, by not singing to the rhythms to calm her?

Just earlier in that scene Eshonai talked about how humming Consolation wouldn't work because it didn't mean anything to humans, yet three paragraphs later she seems to expect rhythms out of Gavilar.

Also - do we know how Szeth got his Oathstone back? Would he have needed to talk to the five before he left?

Edit: Mandatory first comment Intro: Oh hai, long time lurker, since the lead up to WoR figuring it was about time I said something *waves

Edited August 24, 2017 by Advanthera

[Toaster Retribution]

6 hours ago, Zalocx said:

I *really* don't think Aesudan is one of the two women in the meeting. We know from the interludes in WoR that she is basically a hedonist that bribes ardents and pays lip service at best to the Almighty. I don't see someone like that being part of the Sons of Honor. Whatever else Gavilar, Amaram, and Restares are, they are essentially Vorinism fundamentalists. Someone who cajoles priests to tell her she's not failing miserably at her faith is probably not gonna hang out with people so self righteous they think bringing about the apocalypse is a good trade if it brings God and his champions and the authority of the Church back. 

Its been a while since I read the Kholinar/Lhan Interlude, but we don´t exactly know how religious Aesudan is. We know that she treats her citizens badly, and that she is worried about the Almighty being mad at her. This kind of fear, about being sinful and angering God, can defenitely happen in real life (I worry over it sometimes, so I know). Point is, if Aesudan has been brought up in a fundamentalist home (the family of Restares) then it is not at all unlikely to assume that she would suffer from this, and thus try to please the Almighty by bribing ardents. I am not at all convinced that I read her character correctly, but the option is worth considering.

 

14 hours ago, Storyspren said:

So it says get them out of hiding in the new version Which is more compatible with there maybe being one not in hiding. But I was actually thinking the Herald in Gavilar's company might be under cover or at least lying to him. 

You're right of course. Wild speculation. 

If Gavilar had a Herald with him, I doubt he knew about it (wonder how he would react if he knew that Nale & Kalak spoke to his son?) You are also right in that Gavilars information has to come from somewhere, so a Herald is not impossible. There are other possible sources though. With the visions and ancient writings he may be able to piece something together. It is also possible that he borrowed, or stole, information from the Ghostbloods. Who knows, they might have been allies, who now has turned into enemies. Or the Sons of Honor existed before Gavilars visions, and already had some information. There are a lot of possibilities. 

If a Herald was involved, we need to ask ourselves which one. You guessed Ishar. I am not entirely onboard there. Edgedancer spoiler:

Spoiler

Nale says that Ishar is the one who told him to kill Surgebinders in order to prevent another Desolation. This makes it seem unlikely for him to work with Gavilar, who actively tried to bring forth a new Desolation. Unless Brandon has a plot twist, and Ishar is duping Nale, and tricks him into killing Surgebinders and weaken Roshars defences against the Desolation that Ishar tries to bring to Roshar. This is not unlikely in my opinion. Ishar seems like a suspicious wierdo. 

If we exclude Ishar, what other Herald could possibly fit with this? Paliah maybe? She miht have been at the Palanaeum, maybe she is hiding important books from Jasnah? I honestly don´t know, but the observation that Gavilar knows a lot that he shouldn´t really is a good one worth thinking more about.