[OB] Oathbringer Prologue now on Tor.com

[Necessary Eagle]

2 hours ago, Jaconis said:

Oh it would work. Unquestionably it would unite his people. I just said it wasn't a good idea. It's the kind of idea that, as you say, ignores all logical consequences.

Its like he heard the first part of a vision, a part that says to unite, and then stopped listening. 

Do we have a timeline for his visions? It seems to me, from just this prologue, that he hadn't gotten to the "I'm God, I'm dead, Odium is behind everything" final vision before he died.

I don't own a copy of WoK, so I can't check where he might have gotten cut off.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Do we have a timeline for his visions? It seems to me, from just this prologue, that he hadn't gotten to the "I'm God, I'm dead, Odium is behind everything" final vision before he died.

I don't own a copy of WoK, so I can't check where he might have gotten cut off.

That's just it though. I don't think his visions are the same. I wonder if he was even bound to the Stormfather...

Gavilar implies here that he was shown the the Everstorm would change the Parshmen. What did Dalinar ever learn about the Everstorm, beyond its name, and that it was bad? There were no details about the future, and the Everstorm is something new. 

[Jofwu]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

That's just it though. I don't think his visions are the same. I wonder if he was even bound to the Stormfather...

Gavilar implies here that he was shown the the Everstorm would change the Parshmen. What did Dalinar ever learn about the Everstorm, beyond its name, and that it was bad? There were no details about the future, and the Everstorm is something new. 

You're assuming he got all of this from his visions. I think most of us are assuming he's got info from other places as well.

Also, he directly quotes the visions in at least one or two cases. (e.g. Unite them) So they can't be totally different. And assuming his visions come from someone besides Stormfather seems like a big stretch.

[Ytsken]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I may not have my timing right, but Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher while Gavilar was still alive if I remember correctly, it's why he was away during the "Roshone incident." she should already be dead here. 

I was about to say this. Would definitely explain the "I'm RAFO in anything to do with the third Bondsmith" WoB. 

Does this mean the second Bondsmith and his or her spren has already been identified.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, jofwu said:

You're assuming he got all of this from his visions. I think most of us are assuming he's got info from other places as well.

Also, he directly quotes the visions in at least one or two cases. (e.g. Unite them) So they can't be totally different. And assuming his visions come from someone besides Stormfather seems like a big stretch.

I agree I'm grasping. The "unite them" definitely implies the same visions. 

I just want to know where he go foreknowledge of the Everstorm. The only person we've seen with any knowledge of the Everstorm up to this point was Venli. 

There's definitely something going on here. I have no idea what it is and I'm seriously grasping at straws. 

[Steeldancer]

Well I'm still thinking that book 5 will be gavilars POV. 

I'm just confused as to who book 4 will be. 

[Nathrangking]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's just it though. I don't think his visions are the same. I wonder if he was even bound to the Stormfather...

Gavilar implies here that he was shown the the Everstorm would change the Parshmen. What did Dalinar ever learn about the Everstorm, beyond its name, and that it was bad? There were no details about the future, and the Everstorm is something new. 

It cannot be that he had the same visions as Dalinar. As you point out the Everstorm is a new tool that Odium is bringing into play. Tavanast would not have known about it hence they never could have appeared in the visions that he created. That is knowledge that at least in my mind would have been exclusive to Odium and his Unmade.Furthermore, he seems to know some very arcane stuff such as the fact that transformations would occur is not something that we have seen in the visions. There must be something thaty we are not seeing.

 

4 minutes ago, jofwu said:

You're assuming he got all of this from his visions. I think most of us are assuming he's got info from other places as well.

Also, he directly quotes the visions in at least one or two cases. (e.g. Unite them) So they can't be totally different. And assuming his visions come from someone besides Stormfather seems like a big stretch.

While you have a point one then has to ask where did the information come from? How did Gavilar learn about events that were not going to occur for six more years. Tavanast was long dead he could not have given over that information unless he used his foresight, however if he did so then the trances that he sent bear zero testament to that fact. If he knew what was to come he could have prepared them with the visions. Instead they are vague, because I contend that he had no knowledge of what was to come. As for the references we know from WoB that he was a proto-bondsmith, thus he may indeed have had the visions, but that does not preclude the possibility of others that we have yet to learn about. This feels too off to just say that they came from tavanst or the stormfather there is something here that just does not sit well with me. We are almost definitely missing a crucial piece which will blow this wide open. 

 

[FollowYourMuse]

7 minutes ago, jofwu said:

You're assuming he got all of this from his visions. I think most of us are assuming he's got info from other places as well.

Also, he directly quotes the visions in at least one or two cases. (e.g. Unite them) So they can't be totally different. And assuming his visions come from someone besides Stormfather seems like a big stretch.

I think the visions were the same, but what Gavilar did, or how he did or did not interact made a difference in how he interpreted them. We know Dalinar had been getting the visions for months, but how long had Gavilar been having them? How much more time and resources to investigate did he have? Gavilar had something that drove him to unite (conquer), the high princes more than 20 years ago. 

 

[king of nowhere]

I'm also very curious about the source of gavilar's knowledge. I doubt odium sent him visions, if he did he could have contacted venli similarly. but then, maybe he did. And given his conquering, he was certainly attuned to odium enough. Huh. In fact the idea that gavilar's visions actually came from odium actually makes a lot of sense. it would be a huge coincidence if dalinar got visions from honor just shortly after his brother got similar, but warped, visions from odium, but it's the kind of curveball brandon throws at us. it's not like he never had a shard interfere with profecy before...

[ccstat]

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

I'll have to think on the rest of your insights after I sleep, especially the idea that Melishi's solution is a different thing (or that Gavilar is just wrong). I certainly assumed they were the same but you've given me pause. 

On reflection, I've decided my objections aren't as substantial as I first thought. Blocking transformation for long-term enslavement (rather than immediate battlefield advantage) might actually match the epigraph after all.

Reading it again, the epigraph makes it sound like Melishi wasn't making a strategy for battle. More like, "He was totally prepared to kill all those Voidbringers, but then he decided to try this crazy idea instead"--i.e. they had already won the war and just had a tedious day left of mopping up enemy resistance.

At this point i still have some doubts about the accuracy of Gavilar's information, but I think he is definitely talking about what Melishi did.

[Jofwu]

3 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

As you point out the Everstorm is a new tool that Odium is bringing into play. Tavanast would not have known about it hence they never could have appeared in the visions that he created.

Tanavast (especially alongside Cultivation) is more than capable of knowing the future. Dalinar's visions are from Honor and they talk about the Everstorm coming. If you assume Gavilar got his information from elsewhere, there's no problem here. It's a much bigger leap to assume Gavilar is getting totally different visions.

5 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

While you have a point one then has to ask where did the information come from?

That is indeed the question. But I don't know why you think he's predicting the future. He's not saying anything particularly surprising.

[Nathrangking]

3 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Tanavast (especially alongside Cultivation) is more than capable of knowing the future. Dalinar's visions are from Honor and they talk about the Everstorm coming. If you assume Gavilar got his information from elsewhere, there's no problem here. It's a much bigger leap to assume Gavilar is getting totally different visions.

That is indeed the question. But I don't know why you think he's predicting the future. He's not saying anything particularly surprising.

While Tavanast is capable of doing so at no time do we see evidence that he did. If he had he could certainly of given a better road map than the practically indiscernible ramblings that he had the stormfather send out. Further, the everstorm never actually appear in the visions so far as we can see so the knowledge of this storm's coming cannot have been from there. It seems more than likely that Tavanast did not know of an impending storm. Thus, his announcement of the coming of the everstorm and its effects is in fact rather surprising. As far as saying that he got different visions I partially agree I think that he perhaps received additional visions from Odium, unmade ... after the fact which were made to look like a part of the original set. These in turn may have influenced him to the liking of the one/ones who were responsible for them. 

[Calderis]

17 minutes ago, jofwu said:

That is indeed the question. But I don't know why you think he's predicting the future. He's not saying anything particularly surprising.

He's not? He's offhandedly divulging information that Jasnah was completely unable to root out in years of research. It concerns things that the listeners themselves don't seem to know fully, although the Everstorm is briefly mentioned in their songs "a new storm." 

Tanavast only gave one vision of the future to Dalinar, and in it he himself said he's bad at it and that that was more based on his fears than what was actually going to happen. Brandon has also said that some Shards are better than others at it, and all of the "foretelling is not of Honor" even from Syl makes me think that Tanavast, while not completely incapable is just not very good at it. Cultivation on the other hand... 

Regardless of how, he is speaking information that we've only ever seen one other character have knowledge of. Jasnah's research implies this is not readily available in the human knowledge pool, and his interactions here make it seem like his communication with the Parshendi isn't extensive, otherwise why not use someone he was already speaking with to deliver his sphere and message to the Five? 

He has a source of information that is definitely outside of our knowledge. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Calderis

[radiantjasnah]

I absolutely love this Prologue, it's on par with Jasnah's for me. Eshonai is an absolutely fascinating character to me and it makes me even more excited for her book. Loved the bit with her on the drums towards the end.

Gavilar somehow hears the Rhythms and that's both surprising and not surprising. The difference in his reaction to his visions versus Dalinar's reaction is even more pronounced after reading this... Dalinar wanted to unite by introducing more chaos while Dalinar chooses to unite Alethkar by trying to create his version or order. They're both misguided in their own ways I think(Gavilar more obviously) but it'll be interesting to see how Dalinar clues into the broader implication of "Unite them."

I had a suspicion that Venli knew much more than she was letting but I still gasped when I realized she was there when Szeth was purchased.

Can't wait to read more next week!

[Pagerunner]

38 minutes ago, Ytsken said:

Does this mean the second Bondsmith and his or her spren has already been identified.

Nightwatcher is the main candidate for the second Bondsmith spren, since she's Cultivation's superspren like Stormfather is Honor's. But it is still just a theory thus far, albeit a very likely one.

Odium doesn't have a single superspren; the Unmade, collectively, fill that spot. Other large spren, like Cusicesh, are on a lower level of power than NW and SF. So, the three main schools of thought have been one Unmade as a traitor (possibly referenced in the Diagram, even though I think it's referring to Heralds); an Honor/Cultivation mixture superspren we haven't seen yet; or an Adonalsium superspren we haven't seen yet. I think this passage points to the third.

[Crucible of Shards]

I have a question about the visions. When they start cycling through again after Dalinar's last one in WoK, did they go in order? I think I remember in WoR that he said that sometimes he got old ones and some of them were new, and that the order wasn't the same. Is this accurate? Because if so, Gavilar and Dalinar may have each had only part of the picture.

[Jofwu]

@Nathrangking and @Calderis, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing...

The Everstorm is mentioned in multiple visions. Tanavast knew it was coming.

Quote

The sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows.

Yes, Gavilar absolutely knows more than was revealed in Dalinar's visions. Knowledge of how the Parshmen were created... knowledge about how to free the Parshendi gods... He knows things.

I'm simply arguing that it's a MUCH bigger leap to say, "Gavilar is getting unique visions with more information from an alternate source," than it is to say, "Gavilar is getting the same visions as Dalinar AND he's dug up additional information elsewhere."

[Jaconis]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He's not? He's offhandedly divulging information that Jasnah was completely unable to root out in years of research. It concerns things that the listeners themselves don't seem to know fully, although the Everstorm is briefly mentioned in their songs "a new storm." 

Tanavast only gave one vision of the future to Dalinar, and in it he himself said he's bad at it and that that was more based on his fears than what was actually going to happen. Brandon has also said that some Shards are better than others at it, and all of the "foretelling is not of Honor" even from Syl makes me think that Tanavast, while not completely incapable is just not very good at it. Cultivation on the other hand... 

Regardless of how, he is speaking information that we've only ever seen one other character have knowledge of. Jasnah's research implies this is not readily available in the human knowledge pool, and his interactions her make it seem like his communication with the Parshendi isn't extensive, otherwise why not use someone he was already speaking with to deliver his sphere to the Five? 

He has a source of information that is definitely outside of our knowledge. 

Completely agree that he has information from something/someone that we have not experienced yet. I like someone's suggestion from above that perhaps he interacted with the visions differently than Dalinar and so got more information. That doesn't really explain how he got some of this information, such as details about the everstorm, but it could have given info on the listeners. Dalinar could have too. If he simply asked, "What are Voidbringers?" during just about any of his visions (before the prerecorded portions), he would have found out nearly as much as Gavilar seemed to know. 

That being said, we don't really have enough info to know how Gavilar learned what he did. It could have been visions, which could have been the same or different from Dalinar's, or something completely different. My money is on something different, mostly because it would make sense to me that however he gained this extra knowledge is similar to how he came into possession of (at least) two voidlight spheres. Those, at least, we can say with fairly high confidence he did not get in a vision (though who knows...). 

[Calderis]

@jofwu I'm not persuing that line of thought anymore. After you're first response to me I admitted it was to much to think that he'd have visions from a separate source and still have the "unite them" command... 

I'm just chomping at the bit here... How does he know the things he does... So frustcited 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Calderis

[Frostlander]

@CalderisAm loving the idea of a Tarachin Superstar. 

Aside from that, I'll join you in flailing and grasping at straws: contact with a Herald? a visit to the Nightwatcher? Someone, somehow "hacking" the Cognitive(?) realm to transmit additional information? He's clearly been doing or receiving extra research/info on the side, and it's not from Mr. T's visit to NW, as that happened after. 

It's excruciating to not know!

[hypatia]

Perhaps I am able to help...

Book fair, Leipzig, March 2017

Question about the visions from Dalinar in comparition to Gavilar:

A:

He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But...I will say that his reactions to them were very different from Dalinar's reaction to them.

 

Possibilities:

IIRC was 'Starfalls' the 12. vision and the first was partly the same as the last in WoK. We don't know all of the visions.

An Herald - doesn't Amaram talk about Nalan in his letter to Restares?

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by hypatia

[Calderis]

@hypatia thank you. That settles that. 

Edit: so we're back to where did he learn so much about the Everstorm, and where/how did he obtain the Voidlight? 

Is this yet another instance of the Nightwatcher being involved in events, or does he have some secret pact with a sect within the Parshendi that are the same source of Venli's knowledge? 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Calderis

[Govir]

7 hours ago, Jaconis said:

Finally, if the visions Gavilar received are the same as Dalinar's, then Gavilar really was a nutty crazy nutjob of a crazy person. Correct me if I'm wrong, but his bottom line (I can't bring myself to call it logic) is essentially this: My people fight too much, so I will throw the ENTIRE world into war to save them!

I got the impression more that Gavilar just wanted power and a kingdom that endured. He wanted the powers of the Radiants to be returned to humans and doesn't care who or how many have to die to do that.

Quote

We live without honor, for your gods once brought ours. Without them, we have no power.

I read this as "...for your gods once brought our gods. Without them [our gods], we have no power."

 

And on an unrelated note: I think Gavilar and Dalinar see the same visions, but they are interpreted differently. It should be noted that the Visions are not just the recordings of Honor talking, they also include an improve phase where a real conversation can be had with the other people. Gavilar may have gone down different conversational paths than Dalinar and thus received different information.

Quote

Unite them.

Quote

The old Words must be spoken again.

EDIT: @hypatia confirms same visions via WoB two posts up: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/60631-oathbringer-prologue-now-on-torcom/?page=3#comment-599400

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Govir

[navahgar]

What about Hoid?  Couldn't Gavilar have learned this information from Hoid?  We know that Hoid has been Elhokar's Wit, but do we know how long he's been around the family?  Also, even if he's only now the Wit, that doesn't mean he couldn't have earlier been a different figure that Gavilar knew.

I especially like the idea of Hoid being the source of Gavilar's information, because doesn't Hoid at one point tell Dalinar that he's willing to watch Roshar burn to achieve his targets?  Helping Gavilar bring back the Desolations certainly fits in with that nicely.  Also, the letters that Hoid exchanges with Frost appear to suggest that Frost is annoyed with Hoid for his interfering on Roshar.  Has anything we've seen so far from Hoid really risen to that great a level of interference?  Maybe his giving Gavilar in depth knowledge of the past and helping Gavilar come to the conclusion that the Desolations need to return is the big interference.

[frozndevl]

12 minutes ago, Govir said:

I read this as "...for your gods once brought our gods. Without them [our gods], we have no power."

So I take this to have a couple of meanings

1) Less likely... that somehow the gods of the Parshendi brought Honor and Cultivation to Roshar after the shattering, or

2) He considers the Heralds to be gods, and they come as a result of the desolations. I have never paid much attention to Vorinism and who the adherents are, and where they ultimately stand with regards to the Heralds.

Edited August 22, 2017 by frozndevl
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