Theory about Gavilar

[Shawn Hargreaves]

This is mostly speculation, but I figure I should post it in search of "told you so" bragging rights when book 2 or 3 proves me right :-)

Some disconnected facts:

• It was Dalinar, not Gavilar, who first made contact with the Parshendi.
  
• Navani: "Gavilar was not the man everyone thought him to be. I was fond of him, but he---"
  
• In the final battle, when the Parshendi Shardbearer has Dalinar disarmed and at his mercy, instead of finishing him off he leans down and says "It is you. I have found you at last." Then Kaladin interrupts, so we never find out where this was going.
  

Theory: the Parshendi made their initial judgement of the Alethi after meeting Dalinar, not Gavilar (thanks to language and cultural barriers, perhaps they were even confused enough to think Dalinar was in charge), and it was on this basis they decided to sign the treaty.

But there was something seriously wrong with Gavilar, who had been corrupted by Odium via the Thrill, and the Parshendi knew it. They killed Gavilar to remove him from power and make way for Dalinar (again cultural barriers: they didn't understand how inheritance would leave Elhokar in charge instead).

Since then, their strange conduct of the war (fighting a holding pattern, defending their turf but only bringing matching size armies, not chasing retreating armies or making any kind of attempt to get far ahead enough to end the conflict) was all about trying to get in touch with Dalinar again. And we would have found out why, if it wasn't for that pesky spearman!

Edited June 20, 2011 by Shawn Hargreaves

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Hmm... I like the spirit of the theory, but I have one major issue with it.

Gavilar was the one pursuing the Way of Kings when he was assassinated and who everyone said had changed from his old self, Dalinar was drunk in his cups and was still very much the raging for the Thrill warrior at that point.

It's only AFTER the assassination when Dalinar has Gavilar's final words read to him that he starts to read the Way of Kings and started to follow the Codes.

“Have I ever told you what Gavilar’s final words to me were?”

“You haven’t. I’ve always wondered about that night.”

“‘Brother, follow the Codes tonight. There is something strange upon the winds.’ That’s what he said to me, the last thing he told me just before we began the treaty-signing celebration.”

“I didn’t realize that Uncle Gavilar followed the Codes.”

“He’s the one who first showed them to me. He found them as a relic of old Alethkar, back when we’d first been united. He began following them shortly before he died.” Dalinar grew hesitant. “Those were odd days, son. Jasnah and I weren’t sure what to think of the changes in Gavilar. At the time, I thought the Codes foolishness, even the one that commanded an officer to avoid strong drink during times of war. Especially that one.” His voice grew even softer.

“I was unconscious on the ground when Gavilar was murdered. I can remember voices, trying to wake me up, but I was too addled by my wine. I should have been there for him.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010). The Way of Kings (Kindle Locations 4845-4854). Tor Books. Kindle Edition.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I agree with Green Hoodie Mistborn, it's a good theory and makes a lot of sense apart from that fact.

[Shawn Hargreaves]

'tis true, the fact that Gavilar was pursuing Way of Kings is a powerful counterargument :-)

There's just so much we don't know about those early events, though, I'm not ready to discard this theory just yet.

What if Gavilar was following the Way of Kings, but was not the right person to follow it? Something wrong with him, some flaw in his personality, some way that Odium had managed to influence him, meant he needed to be removed so that Dalinar could follow this path instead?

Or the other way around: what if Gavilar was the right person to do this and Dalinar the flawed one, and the Parshendi removed Gavilar for malicious reasons? (I don't really buy that thought - there is far too much evidence of the Parshendi being honorable)

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I agree that the Parshendi do act honorably, but there are so many things we don't know.

If they are honorable, how does that then compute with Jasnah's theory that the Parshmen are in fact the voidbringers of legend?

If they are voidbringers, and Gavilar was on the road to returning the Knights Radiant by following the codes and the Way of Kings, the assassination makes total sense. If instead the Parshendi are in someway tied to Honor it makes no sense other than your theory, that Gavilar was somehow tainted by Odium and that by assassinating him, it would push Dalinar on the path of Knights Radiant himself.

Gah!! we need books 2-10 NOW!

[Shawn Hargreaves]

I agree that the Parshendi do act honorably, but there are so many things we don't know.

If they are honorable, how does that then compute with Jasnah's theory that the Parshmen are in fact the voidbringers of legend?

If I'm right, then she is wrong :-) Or at least partially confused: my guess is that most of her theory is correct, but she will turn out to have misinterpreted at least one key detail that will flip everything on its head.

I believe this for two reasons:

This is Brandon! We know that the man enjoys a good surprise :-) Not one of his books to date has been without at least one significant "OMG, everything I thought I knew was going on is now totally backward" moment. And we know this is an epic, order of magnitude larger than anything he has written to date. It just doesn't make sense that what we think we know at the end of book 1 will turn out to be accurate by the end of book 10. Just consider how many twists still lay in store 1/10 of the way through the Mistborn series, which was only 30% of the way through Final Empire!

Secondly, we know that honor is more than just an abstract ideal in this world. It has a very direct and real connection to a shard, and acting honorably produces tangible changes in power and abilities. I just don't buy that there can be any such concept as a "lawful evil" character in such a world, so if the Parshendi are consistently seen to act honorably, I believe that means they truly are honorable.

If they are voidbringers, and Gavilar was on the road to returning the Knights Radiant by following the codes and the Way of Kings, the assassination makes total sense.

But then why the reluctance to kill Dalinar, and what does the "I have found you ate last" quote mean?

Gah!! we need books 2-10 NOW!

That is one of the few facts we know for sure :-)

[FeatherWriter]

Hmm. I'm starting to have a feeling about the Parshendi being voidbringers thing. My Branderson senses are tingling. There's some kind of the evil-mists-are-actually-of-Preservation-and-weren't-actually-originally-evil thing going on here. I'm guessing there's way more here than meets the eye.

But then, this is Brandon, so I suppose that's less of a guess and more of a given.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

The only real assumption we can make is that half (at least) of both our assumptions and the characters assumptions are wrong. The only problem is guessing which half.

[Shawn Hargreaves]

The only real assumption we can make is that half (at least) of both our assumptions and the characters assumptions are wrong. The only problem is guessing which half.

Unless Brandon feels he has done so much of the whole hidden secret plot twist thing that we'll all be expecting it this time, so the giant surprise is that there is no secret at all and everything is in fact exactly as it appears to the most superficial first glance!

[FeatherWriter]

Unless Brandon feels he has done so much of the whole hidden secret plot twist thing that we'll all be expecting it this time, so the giant surprise is that there is no secret at all and everything is in fact exactly as it appears to the most superficial first glance!

Ow. My brain hurts now. And words no work good when brain no work good.

[Earendil]

I'd feel more inclined to believe the whole theory if the Parshendi had shown any inclination to not kill Dalinar after realizing who he was. As it is, I personally am more interested in Gavilar's sphere as the possible reason for Seth's assassination.

Also, remember than the fact that the Parshendi do something that seems against their character could just be more proof of Odium's involvement (a la Marsh in The Hero of Ages).

[Asha'man Logain]

I do not believe that the parshendi are in anyway the voidbringers. The Parshmen however i could see being possible. Jasnah can be wrong, in fact generally anything a character says in world, when it's such a huge sweeping staement is usually wrong, or at least seriously flawed.

I wonder how it is that i've seen and heard this argument (parshendi are voidbringers) many times, but the fact that the chasmfiend picture captioned as a voidbringer is not brought up. I find this to be far more interesting, especially as they are rocky and have giant gemhearts that hold stormlight.

[happyman]

I do not believe that the parshendi are in anyway the voidbringers. The Parshmen however i could see being possible. Jasnah can be wrong, in fact generally anything a character says in world, when it's such a huge sweeping staement is usually wrong, or at least seriously flawed.

I wonder how it is that i've seen and heard this argument (parshendi are voidbringers) many times, but the fact that the chasmfiend picture captioned as a voidbringer is not brought up. I find this to be far more interesting, especially as they are rocky and have giant gemhearts that hold stormlight.

We've discussed this to death. My belief is that the Parshendi are Voidbringers (the hints in the book are quite solid when considered together), but that we don't understand enough about what that means for it to mean anything to us.

[Zayde]

Hmm. I'm starting to have a feeling about the Parshendi being voidbringers thing. My Branderson senses are tingling. There's some kind of the evil-mists-are-actually-of-Preservation-and-weren't-actually-originally-evil thing going on here. I'm guessing there's way more here than meets the eye.

But then, this is Brandon, so I suppose that's less of a guess and more of a given.

Something like the Parshendi are voidbringers, yes, but they've gained a kind of independence from Odium and will end up fighting against him to keep their freedom?

[Chaos]

I reread a substantial part of Way of Kings yesterday, and I've decided that the Parshendi are not Voidbringers.

It's mentioned too much that the Parshendi showed much honor. This seems very much opposed to the Voidbringers' intent. In fact, there is one mention that the Voidbringers were of hate. At least, that's what Kabsal says.

“We believe that the voidbringers were real, Shallan. A scourge and a plague. A hundred times--ten tenfolds--they came upon mankind. First casting us from the Tranquiline Halls, then trying to destroy us here on Roshar. They weren’t just spren that hid under rocks, then came out to steal someone’s laundry. They were creatures of destructive, terrible power, forged in Damnation, created from hate.”

(Emphasis mine)

Considering that that pretty clearly refers to Odium, and the Parshendi are very much Honor, this seems clear that the two are diametrically opposed.

The parshmen probably can form into Voidbringers, through some sort of manipulation of Odium, but that is separate from the Parshendi. I think the fear of Parshendi stems from the fact that they don't understand them yet.

I could be wrong, but it seems right to me.

[Zayde]

But at the same time, I think it's too much of a coincidence that parshmen and the Parshendi share so many physiological similarities. And if the parshmen are really Voidbringers, then they also share the ability to shapeshift with the Parshendi, given one of Jasnah's epigraphs:

They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances. Never underestimate them because of what you first see.

- Chapter 33 epigraph

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that the Parshendi are technically Voidbringers but have broken away from Odium somehow.

[Squallor]

I kind of feel that the Parshmen might be of a divine nature, and can be easily influenced by any shard. When Odium takes them, then they become the voidbringers. Maybe what we see in the Parshendi, is them being influenced by Honor's power instead. So far from what we have seen, a shards power still lingers around the planet, even after his/her death. Maybe this latent power "snapped" the parshmen the same way the mists would snap allomancers even after Laras' death?

I would not be surprised to see parshmen on both sides of the field before the end of this.

[Zas678]

Well, how much were Kandra of Ruin? I mean culturally? They were all about staying the same, about immortality, about the status quo. Thus the saw themselves as Preservation, even though magically, they were of Ruin. Perhaps a similar thing is happening with the Parshendi. (Although admittedly, that does seem too easy of a comparison)

Maybe that's why the Parshendi made the deal and then broke it. Becuase that was an act of Odium instead of an act of Honor

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I don't know if I can call what side they'll be on, but I get the feeling that the Parshendi and the Parshmen will be on opposite sides of the conflict.

[CabbageHead]

I reread a substantial part of Way of Kings yesterday, and I've decided that the Parshendi are not Voidbringers.

It's mentioned too much that the Parshendi showed much honor. This seems very much opposed to the Voidbringers' intent. In fact, there is one mention that the Voidbringers were of hate. At least, that's what Kabsal says.

(Emphasis mine)

Considering that that pretty clearly refers to Odium, and the Parshendi are very much Honor, this seems clear that the two are diametrically opposed.

The parshmen probably can form into Voidbringers, through some sort of manipulation of Odium, but that is separate from the Parshendi. I think the fear of Parshendi stems from the fact that they don't understand them yet.

I could be wrong, but it seems right to me.

That does all ring true. However, there could always be a way for the Parshendi to be honourable but still be the voidbringers, through no real fault of their own. For example, what if the Parshendi were Honor's first attempt at creating people? A people living in harmony with each other through their mind link. Such a link would make it very easy for Odium to usurp control of them. Humans may have been made as a less perfect but less easily controlled version two. Not going to back that up in any way, just throwing around random thoughts.

[Asha'man Logain]

Based on a youtube video of a reading Brandon did, I have some to a new conclusion. First, some facts:

-Humans have red blood, Greatshells have purple, and Parshendi orange.

-The only known visual representation we have of the Voidbringers looks ALOT like a Greatshell.

Now to my speculation. Brandon did a reading (Suvudu recorded it and put it on youtube) where he read the prelude. It caught my attention that when Kalak looks around the battlefield he mentions that he sees the bodies of fallen allies and enemies. He mentions the blood mixing. I believe that it means the two closer species with the more similar blood (one of the ten essences) were the allies fighting against the purpleblooded enemy (opposite of orange on the color wheel).

I believe the Parshendi sent Szeth to assassinate Gavilar in order to START the war.

'Why?' I can hear you asking. I think they knew the desolation was coming, but had no link left to humankind. They started the war to show by deed and battle, that they ARE honorable. Also taht they are strong and have value to contribute. They know how uniting a shared threat can be. They were trying to set up the possibilty of an alliance before the voidbringer come.

Maybe this should have it's own thread though, i dunno so i'll post it here first

[Aashyma]

Based on a youtube video of a reading Brandon did, I have some to a new conclusion. First, some facts:

-Humans have red blood, Greatshells have purple, and Parshendi orange.

-The only known visual representation we have of the Voidbringers looks ALOT like a Greatshell.

Now to my speculation. Brandon did a reading (Suvudu recorded it and put it on youtube) where he read the prelude. It caught my attention that when Kalak looks around the battlefield he mentions that he sees the bodies of fallen allies and enemies. He mentions the blood mixing. I believe that it means the two closer species with the more similar blood (one of the ten essences) were the allies fighting against the purpleblooded enemy (opposite of orange on the color wheel).

I believe the Parshendi sent Szeth to assassinate Gavilar in order to START the war.

'Why?' I can hear you asking. I think they knew the desolation was coming, but had no link left to humankind. They started the war to show by deed and battle, that they ARE honorable. Also taht they are strong and have value to contribute. They know how uniting a shared threat can be. They were trying to set up the possibilty of an alliance before the voidbringer come.

Maybe this should have it's own thread though, i dunno so i'll post it here first

So, you think that by making an alliance only to break it a few hours later and then proceeding to kill the King of Alethi is the Pashendi's way of forging a stronger alliance?

Breaking a treaty and assisinating your host is a terrible way of proving yourself honourable.

[Asha'man Logain]

So, you think that by making an alliance only to break it a few hours later and then proceeding to kill the King of Alethi is the Pashendi's way of forging a stronger alliance?

Breaking a treaty and assisinating your host is a terrible way of proving yourself honourable.

A bad, yet necessary start. Through many cultures the way you, or fighting an opponent is often considered the sincerest form of communication.

The Alethi STILL treat the parshendi as more of a novelty, a sideshow act. "Look, it's a parshamn that thinks it's a person. HA ha ha." Even after the treaty they were considered slightly smarter parshmen, who they regard as little more than animals.

I think the Parshendi knew the Final Desolation was coming, and very quickly. They didn't have time to convince the Alethi that they were equal, or even helpfull at all really. Except through battle. Look at what Dahlinar and Kaladin have found out about them, solely through fighting. They have full shardbearers. Further the shardbearers are skilled, they obviously didn't just pick them up lying around. They never bring in their numbers advantage at a plateu assalt. They salute worthy warriors, even on the other side of the conflict. They obviously have a society and taboos, they have rituals for their dead, etc.

I think they are hoping the Alethi either gain respect for them allowing for a TRUE alliance. (And really how else can you gain the respect of an Alethi?) OR that when the desolation comes, the alethi will be smart enough to ally with the people who have been holding their own in an all out war, agaisnt those who want to destroy all life on Roshar.

So yes, it was a bad start. But i think ultimately it was supposed to be for the good of both races.

[Aashyma]

A bad, yet necessary start. Through many cultures the way you, or fighting an opponent is often considered the sincerest form of communication.

The Alethi STILL treat the parshendi as more of a novelty, a sideshow act. "Look, it's a parshamn that thinks it's a person. HA ha ha." Even after the treaty they were considered slightly smarter parshmen, who they regard as little more than animals.

I think the Parshendi knew the Final Desolation was coming, and very quickly. They didn't have time to convince the Alethi that they were equal, or even helpfull at all really. Except through battle. Look at what Dahlinar and Kaladin have found out about them, solely through fighting. They have full shardbearers. Further the shardbearers are skilled, they obviously didn't just pick them up lying around. They never bring in their numbers advantage at a plateu assalt. They salute worthy warriors, even on the other side of the conflict. They obviously have a society and taboos, they have rituals for their dead, etc.

I think they are hoping the Alethi either gain respect for them allowing for a TRUE alliance. (And really how else can you gain the respect of an Alethi?) OR that when the desolation comes, the alethi will be smart enough to ally with the people who have been holding their own in an all out war, agaisnt those who want to destroy all life on Roshar.

So yes, it was a bad start. But i think ultimately it was supposed to be for the good of both races.

That's a good explanation.

Do you think that the unification of the Highprinces may also have been a goal?

[Asha'man Logain]

That's a good explanation.

Do you think that the unification of the Highprinces may also have been a goal?

Yes, this could very well be a step they needed to take. In fact It could be taht the Parshendi are also looking for evidence the Alethi are worthy allies themselves. Doesn't one of their sharbearers say "I found you at last" or something like that to Dahlinar near the end of book 1?