Game of Thrones/ASoIaF

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, Idealistic said:

Well, her ancestors ruled westeros for 300, and only 15 years has passed since Robert's rebellion, that's a strong claim, 

You are right, the claim is stronger than I thought. That said, I still think that the Baratheons, who everyone swore allegiance to, has the biggest right to the Iron Throne. Robert was king, usurper or not, and by Dany logic (it is right to take over any city/nation if their leaders are crembags) then Robert and Stannis defenitely deserves the throne. 

[Kaymyth]

17 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Definitely not. She could have given time Tarlys to think over switching sides which there was a chance they would if Tyrion had a chance to try to convince them; instead she have chosen to be bloodlust and burned them alive - and she completely ignored her Hand which is a very bad sign since Tyrion is the sanest and level headed she has.

She is too impulsive and while she may even be a good leader and conquer the Seven Kingdoms, she'll be a terrible leader in times of peace.

Remember, though, that the last time she gave people a chance to change their minds about her, she nearly got killed in the middle of the fighting pits. Experience has taught her some harsh lessons.

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

You are right, the claim is stronger than I thought. That said, I still think that the Baratheons, who everyone swore allegiance to, has the biggest right to the Iron Throne. Robert was king, usurper or not, and by Dany logic (it is right to take over any city/nation if their leaders are crembags) then Robert and Stannis defenitely deserves the throne. 

Of course, there aren't any (legitimate) Baratheons left now...

[Delightful]

21 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Justice? What justice? What crime did Tarlys commit except obeying their vows? They swore an oath to the throne - which currently means Cersei - and if I recall correctly, Dany berated Varys for not being loyal to his previous masters.

That's hipocritical.

If anything, she started to listen less to Tyrion and now that Jon bend the knee and is not equal to her, she will eventually stop listening to him too.

They obeyed their vows and Dany, instead of showing mercy, kept her word and killed them. 
A forced 'conversion' is also a different situation to trusting an advisor who has backstabbed (non literally) a few of the rulers he's already served. That was more self preservation than anything. You don't take advice or share your secrets with the randoms you conquer.
Thats also two recent events, compared to all previous seasons. She kills slavers and people who she sees has allowed or perpetrated an injustice. She has mercy for the lowly people and none for those that oppress them. In Westeros now its a little different, I'll admit. 

Jon bent the knee, and she agreed to fight without him doing so. As I see it, they're on equal footing. 

16 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@Delightful I have a whole bunch of reasons for liking Daenerys:

-She is entitled despite, in my opinion lacking the right to the Throne. Every house in Westero (except the dead and banished Targaryens) swore fealty to Robert as king. That makes Robert the legal king, and Stannis the heir. Dany (or Jon, for that matter) lacks a claim in my opinion.

-She is hypocritical. She is mad about losing her throne in Westeros. She calls Robert the Usurper. So she starts taking other peoples thrones. Sure, they are bad people, but so was the Mad King. 

-It seems like a lot of her character is: I have dragons! which feels cheap. 

So yeah, thats basically it, I think. 

-Well, Stannis is dead. As Idealistic pointed out, its hundreds of years vs 15 plus she grew up hearing all about how Westeros belongs to her family and they'll take it back someday. Also, why would Robert, taking over from Rhaegars death, be any more legit than Cersei taking over after Tommins death, or anybody else taking over after Cerise's death? If its blood right to the throne then anyone can take it. 

-She spends a lot of time without her dragons. Like they're there, but very background. She convinces the unsullied and the Dothraki and everyone to follow her because she is just and she wants to create a just world. The dragons are there, sure, but thats like saying Aryas character is "I can kill things'. Its a power source sure, but who she is is so much more than that too.

And if we're talking about character growth, she's gone from a weak young woman helpless and sold into sex slavery (lets be honest), grew immensely in confidence and ability and decision making and leadership skills, gains followers, becomes a total badass, and has finally been able to let down that invulnerable mask and show Jon how she actually feels. Thats one heck of a character journey and the dragons are only a side point. Anyone else with those dragons would have acted very differently. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Delightful

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, Delightful said:

-Well, Stannis is dead. As Idealistic pointed out, its hundreds of years vs 15 plus she grew up hearing all about how Westeros belongs to her family and they'll take it back someday. Also, why would Robert, taking over from Rhaegars death, be any more legit than Cersei taking over after Tommins death, or anybody else taking over after Cerise's death? If its blood right to the throne then anyone can take it. 

First, quick book spoiler:

Spoiler

Stannis is most likely still alive in the novels.

But in the show you are correct, Stannis is dead. I am not sure on the inheritance law when the kings legitimate children and siblings are out of the picture, but I guess the Throne going to his wife is logical. So yeah, I'd say Cersei has right to the Throne as it stands now (I'm not a fan of hers though).

If Cersei hadn't been married to Robert and still taken the Throne, then no, she wouldn't have been the legal queen, simply because there are still Houses that hasn't sworn fealty to her, and admitted her as queen of the Seven Kingdoms. All non-extinct and non-banished Houses did so with Robert, which is why I consider his claim the best. 

9 minutes ago, Delightful said:

-She spends a lot of time without her dragons. Like they're there, but very background. She convinces the unsullied and the Dothraki and everyone to follow her because she is just and she wants to create a just world. The dragons are there, sure, but thats like saying Aryas character is "I can kill things'. Its a power source sure, but she's so much more than that too. 

The Unsullied would follow Dany no matter what, because she bought them. Their whole lives have been centered around serving the one who buys them. Now they follow her because she freed them, yes, but she would never have been able to do that without the dragons. 

I'll admit that you are correct about the Dothraki though. She did that one without the dragons. But I doubt they follow her because she is just and fair. They are a bunch of pillaging warriors, they care sbout strenght. They follow because she burned their old leaders and emerged unscathed by the flames.

[Delightful]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

First, quick book spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Stannis is most likely still alive in the novels.

But in the show you are correct, Stannis is dead. I am not sure on the inheritance law when the kings legitimate children and siblings are out of the picture, but I guess the Throne going to his wife is logical. So yeah, I'd say Cersei has right to the Throne as it stands now (I'm not a fan of hers though).

If Cersei hadn't been married to Robert and still taken the Throne, then no, she wouldn't have been the legal queen, simply because there are still Houses that hasn't sworn fealty to her, and admitted her as queen of the Seven Kingdoms. All non-extinct and non-banished Houses did so with Robert, which is why I consider his claim the best. 

The Unsullied would follow Dany no matter what, because she bought them. Their whole lives have been centered around serving the one who buys them. Now they follow her because she freed them, yes, but she would never have been able to do that without the dragons. 

I'll admit that you are correct about the Dothraki though. She did that one without the dragons. But I doubt they follow her because she is just and fair. They are a bunch of pillaging warriors, they care sbout strenght. They follow because she burned their old leaders and emerged unscathed by the flames.

So if all the lords swore fealty to someone else, would they by your reckoning be the legal ruler?

 

True, they make a big deal about the Unsullied being free, but I guess that was the point of Jons conversation with Missandei. That they follow Dany because they want to and if they chose she would help them leave. 

She also earned Tyrion and Varys and Jorah's respect on her strength of character, not because of her dragons.

[Oversleep]

57 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I am not sure on the inheritance law when the kings legitimate children and siblings are out of the picture, but I guess the Throne going to his wife is logical

It'd rather be "nearest male blood relative".

[Delightful]

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

It'd rather be "nearest male blood relative".

Depends on how patriarchal the society is. Sansa is easily Lady Stark, but Yarra would be the first queen, so it seems to differ from place to place. 

[Oversleep]

18 minutes ago, Delightful said:

Depends on how patriarchal the society is. Sansa is easily Lady Stark, but Yarra would be the first queen, so it seems to differ from place to place. 

The only place the gender doesn't matter with inheritance in Seven Kingdoms is Dorne (hence the plot with crowning Myrcella since by their law she had better claim to the Iron Throne than Tommen).

Iron Islands don't concern themselves with heirdom anyway - they just choose the next leader.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Oversleep

[Toaster Retribution]

9 hours ago, Delightful said:

So if all the lords swore fealty to someone else, would they by your reckoning be the legal ruler?

 

True, they make a big deal about the Unsullied being free, but I guess that was the point of Jons conversation with Missandei. That they follow Dany because they want to and if they chose she would help them leave. 

She also earned Tyrion and Varys and Jorah's respect on her strength of character, not because of her dragons.

Yeah, if all the lords swore fealty to someone, and that someone then got rid of the current king and the heirs in one way or another, he/she would be the ruler.

To be honest, I believe Varys planned to help her from the start. He plotted with Illyrio in season one, and in the books, he has supported the Targaryens since the beginning.

[Erandeni]

On 24/8/2017 at 11:48 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

I am not sure on the inheritance law when the kings legitimate children and siblings are out of the picture, but I guess the Throne going to his wife is logical.

As far as I know it should be blood relatives in order to inherit, so I think minor branchs of baratheon should inherit.

Jon being King in the North also bothers me, he is a bastard with no right to the throne, and thinking that Bran and Rickon are dead, Sansa should be Queen in the North.

 

[Toaster Retribution]

10 minutes ago, Idealistic said:

Jon being King in the North also bothers me,

I think it bothers Sansa too.

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, Idealistic said:

he is a bastard with no right to the throne

Well, we already know he's legitimate.

[StormyQueen]

13 hours ago, Idealistic said:

Jon being King in the North also bothers me, he is a bastard with no right to the throne, and thinking that Bran and Rickon are dead, Sansa should be Queen in the North.

I don't really think they're concerned with legitimacy at the moment, and Jon has earned their trust. Robert didn't have any legitimacy when he took the throne, and in times of crisis, people become less and less concerned with if somebody has legitimate claim to the throne, and legitimacy can always be created afterwards when you're looking to secure power.

[Ammanas]

Hopefully this hasn't been mentioned before, but there will be a new Song of Ice and Fire story released this October!

It will be in the same style as the ones found in Rogues and Dangerous Women anthologies and is written as in-world accounts of some of the key events in the turbulent reign of the Targaryens. This entry covers the years of Aegon the Conqueror's successors: intellectual, beloved, yet indecisive Aenys and his half-brother, the dynamic and cruel Maegor.

It will be part of The Book of Swords anthology edited by Dozois.

[the winter system]

I read most of the books and I just started the show. I was wondering about how hillariously badly it would go if SA characters got dropped into ASOIAF or vice versa. Lift and Arya (from the first few books, not the later Arya) would probably get along pretty well. Or horribly. 

[Toaster Retribution]

5 hours ago, winter devotion said:

I was wondering about how hillariously badly it would go if SA characters got dropped into ASOIAF or vice versa. 

Sadeas, and maybe Amaram and Mraize, would probably do pretty well though. 

[the winter system]

14 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Sadeas, and maybe Amaram and Mraize, would probably do pretty well though. 

Dalinar would have a... bad time. He and pre decapitation Ned Stark would get along well though. Jasnah would do pretty well. Actually Shallan and Sansa have surprising similarities. Both naive and sheltered red heads who learn the way of the court by being dunked in it head first. And both have the death of a father, even if Shallan really was sort of responsible for that one. And also heavy trauma. There'd be a crud ton of Lightweavers there.

(Also, my favorite characters go 1. Sansa 2. Arya 3. Dany.)

 

[Toaster Retribution]

Huh, listing favorite characters is fun: 

Books:

1. Stannis Baratheon

2. Jaime Lannister

3. Robb Stark 

4. Bronn

5. Tormund Giantsbane

 

Show:

1. Bronn

2. Beric Dondarrion

3. Tywin Lannister

4. Tormund Giantsbane

5. Oberyn Martell

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Toaster Retribution
Forgot Oberyn and Tywin for some reason

[the winter system]

56 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Huh, listing favorite characters is fun: 

Books:

1. Stannis Baratheon

2. Jaime Lannister

3. Robb Stark 

4. Bronn

5. Tormund Giantsbane

 

Show:

1. Bronn

2. Beric Dondarrion

3. Tormund Giantsbane

4. Euron Greyjoy

5. Robb Stark

It's really tricky to keep track of who's who in the show. At least the books had chapter titles.

(Also, Stannis? Really? I thought him, even in the book, boring and single minded. Why do you like him?)

I actually hated Sansa the first time, when I was a lot younger. It's funny. 

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

(Also, Stannis? Really? I thought him, even in the book, boring and single minded. Why do you like him?)

Spoilered for lenght and book/show spoilers.

Why I like Stannis:

Spoiler

I find him complex and multi-layered. He is extremely determined, and has a strong idea about justice, duty, right and wrong. He follows his ideals for the majority of the time, and doesn't bend even though he knows that other people dislike him, or find him unsymphatetic. He keeps on doing the right thing, even when he hardly gets thanked for it, and is just looked down upon. And I think that Stannis wants to be appreciated, and acknowledged by others, deep down. But he keeps on being himself anyway. He also wants the throne because it is his duty, not for the power like most of the other characters. 

He is no fanatic either (not in the books anyway) and believes in Melisandre because he can see that she has power. Stannis can see things in the fire, he has seen the shadow baby and her magic. And so, he also (without being particularly religious) becomes convinced that she is right and he is the chosen one. He plans to burn Edric Storm (Gendry in the show) not because he wants too, because he needs to in order to save everyone else. He hates doing it, but he goes through with it because he thinks he has too.

Furthermore, Stannis seems to judge people based on their actions, not in which family they were born, which is pretty good. 

In short, Stannis is harsh, and yes somewhat single-minded. But he plays by his own rules, follows a clear code, and tries to do the right thing, and is disliked by many for his personality and opinions, but he continues on, even if it hurts him. 

Hopefully that was somewhat helpful.

[the winter system]

29 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Spoilered for lenght and book/show spoilers.

Why I like Stannis:

  Hide contents

I find him complex and multi-layered. He is extremely determined, and has a strong idea about justice, duty, right and wrong. He follows his ideals for the majority of the time, and doesn't bend even though he knows that other people dislike him, or find him unsymphatetic. He keeps on doing the right thing, even when he hardly gets thanked for it, and is just looked down upon. And I think that Stannis wants to be appreciated, and acknowledged by others, deep down. But he keeps on being himself anyway. He also wants the throne because it is his duty, not for the power like most of the other characters. 

He is no fanatic either (not in the books anyway) and believes in Melisandre because he can see that she has power. Stannis can see things in the fire, he has seen the shadow baby and her magic. And so, he also (without being particularly religious) becomes convinced that she is right and he is the chosen one. He plans to burn Edric Storm (Gendry in the show) not because he wants too, because he needs to in order to save everyone else. He hates doing it, but he goes through with it because he thinks he has too.

Furthermore, Stannis seems to judge people based on their actions, not in which family they were born, which is pretty good. 

In short, Stannis is harsh, and yes somewhat single-minded. But he plays by his own rules, follows a clear code, and tries to do the right thing, and is disliked by many for his personality and opinions, but he continues on, even if it hurts him. 

Hopefully that was somewhat helpful.

I guess? I don't tend to get really attached to male characters in general. 
EDIT: Watching some of season 2 and ARYA SAVAGE

"Anyone can be killed, m'lord." 

is glaring. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by winter devotion

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, winter devotion said:

I guess? I don't tend to get really attached to male characters in general. 

Well, different people like different characters. I dont really expect everyone to become Stannis-fans because I write a text wall about the guy. I generally like male characters more, I've found, so I guess we are even there :-)

2 hours ago, winter devotion said:

EDIT: Watching some of season 2 and ARYA SAVAGE

"Anyone can be killed, m'lord." 

is glaring. 

Best Arya scenes are with the Hound. Best roadtrip ever.

[Aciilnt Stormblessed]

Couldn't resist joining this thread to talk about my favourite characters though I've only watched the first 5 seasons and haven't read any of the books(though I intend to).

Anyway, my favourite characters are

1. Tyrion

2. Sansa

3.Samwell

-Also, if you asked me in season 1 and 2 my favourite characters would have been Dany and Arya but I agree with what a lot of you were saying about Dany being impulsive and merciless etc. I  don't dislike Arya but I find her a bit brutal (though I can't really blame her given what she's been through) and she's definitely not one of my faves.

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Aciilnt Stormblessed

[the winter system]

4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Well, different people like different characters. I dont really expect everyone to become Stannis-fans because I write a text wall about the guy. I generally like male characters more, I've found, so I guess we are even there :-)

Best Arya scenes are with the Hound. Best roadtrip ever.

Arya and the Hound sure do find each other's company engaging.

[Erandeni]

My favourites characters are:

Jaime

Arya

Robb

Jon

Sansa

Davos