Toaster Retribution

Game of Thrones/ASoIaF

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ASoIaF is probably my second favorite fantasy, after the Cosmere, and I want to see wether there are any other fans here (or if there are people who HATE it). 

Anyway, just general discussion, book vs show, favorite characters, who gets the Throne, that sort of deal. Also, to be on the safe side, spoilers will probably come up for both books and tv-shows, so warning for those who aren't caught up, but we could try to put things in spoiler tags if they are too spoiler-heavy. 

I'll start with one of my own opinions: the books are better than the show, but the show does a better job with some of its characters, like Bronn, Beric Dondarrion or Tormund. 

Also, I dislike Daenerys with a passion. 

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 I've read three of the books, watched two non consecutive seasons of the show and just started playing the card game (which is fun! )

I've mostly enjoyed what I've read, but since Martin is in no hurry to write them I'm in no hurry to read them :P

It helps that I pretty much don't believe spoilers harm the enjoyment of a book, so I don't really need to rush to finish anything.:ph34r:

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4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

ASoIaF is probably my second favorite fantasy, after the Cosmere, and I want to see wether there are any other fans here (or if there are people who HATE it). 

Anyway, just general discussion, book vs show, favorite characters, who gets the Throne, that sort of deal. Also, to be on the safe side, spoilers will probably come up for both books and tv-shows, so warning for those who aren't caught up, but we could try to put things in spoiler tags if they are too spoiler-heavy. 

I'll start with one of my own opinions: the books are better than the show, but the show does a better job with some of its characters, like Bronn, Beric Dondarrion or Tormund. 

Also, I dislike Daenerys with a passion. 

I never liked the books after the first one, and personally, I think the show does a better job. GRRM's prose just didn't work for me, and the books moved too slowly for me to be interested.

Also, as I have theorised since the third book or season (I can't remember exactly), I think Dany will make a terrible leader of Westeros, and that she will, eventually become something of a "mad queen". I don't think she will go mad per se, but I think she will reflect that. Game of Thrones has shown how it likes showing the past repeating itself, and I think Dany will be a reflection of her ancestors. And, she's on a very, very slippery slope right now. I didn't mind her before this recent season, but she has become so self-entitled that I just don't like her. Jon Snow for King?

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I thought the first three were pretty good. But have held off reading the rest for a few reasons

1.This story is too complex not to be very familiar with every going on. I have a rubbish memory so that would mean a reread with every new release.

2. I just get the attitude that completing this story is not a priority for George. I really don't want to support him.

3. I believe that the sex scenes are a little out of control in the book. The graphic details don't serve a purpose and are not necessary. I don't mind some of these scenes sprinkled throughout the book, but George's books are approaching Romance genre level of details.

4. I believe he relies on shock value too much and just does things to surprise the reader and it ends up hurting the narrative. I feel that after the red wedding he didn't know where to go with the story.

George does do a lot of good things though. I love the level of detail his world has and getting lost in it. I thought he wrote politics well and developing characters. I usually believe in supporting authors, but seeing how George isn't hurting for money I will check out his books a the library once it is completed.

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Regarding this:

* George is a slow writer. He always has been. He's one of those folks who needs to have a particular setup and atmosphere around him in order to be able to write, and if he doesn't have that then he can't. Not every author can keep up Brandon's pace.

* ASoIaF is an extremely complex story with a zillion moving parts. He's had the overall plot and ending in his mind since the beginning, so if and when he gets stuck, it's on the details. Not the big picture.

* Being fairly active in fandom myself, I know quite a few people who are acquainted with him on a personal level. Even before he hit his fame arc, he was always putting time and energy into supporting the community in general and helping new authors get a leg up. He continues to do this. He's using his fame in order to launch other writers into that same sphere. See the recent news about him getting HBO to sign on to turn some of Nnedi Okorafor's work into a series.

Ask any author on the convention circuit who's met the man - they'll tell you he's earned his time in the spotlight.

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6 hours ago, StormyQueen said:

I never liked the books after the first one, and personally, I think the show does a better job. GRRM's prose just didn't work for me, and the books moved too slowly for me to be interested.

My issues with the show are these:

-A lot more sex scenes/general nudity. I can read/watch things that contain sex and nudity, but I don't like the scenes themselves. The show has a lot of unnecessary sex and nudity.

-I liked the complexity of the books, with a lot of minor plotlines and characters. The show has cut a lot of it out, but I understand why.

-They stormed up a bunch of my favorite characters, mostly Jaime Lannister and Stannis Baratheon. 

-A lot more small plot holes, such as Littlefingers apparent teleportation ability.

6 hours ago, StormyQueen said:

Also, as I have theorised since the third book or season (I can't remember exactly), I think Dany will make a terrible leader of Westeros, and that she will, eventually become something of a "mad queen". I don't think she will go mad per se, but I think she will reflect that. Game of Thrones has shown how it likes showing the past repeating itself, and I think Dany will be a reflection of her ancestors. And, she's on a very, very slippery slope right now. I didn't mind her before this recent season, but she has become so self-entitled that I just don't like her. Jon Snow for King?

I hope Dany turns mad. Its really the only way I see her character becoming interesting. Right now I feel like she is an entitled hypocrite, who gets whatever she points at because she happens to own three dragons. When it comes to the Iron Throne, I was a firm Stannis supporter until (book and show spoiler):

Spoiler

His head got chopped off. He is alive in the books though.

If I have to choose among the three big ones now, I'd go Jon. However, I'm kind of rooting for Bronn, Beric or Tormund to get the throne.

6 hours ago, Ammanas said:

4. I believe he relies on shock value too much and just does things to surprise the reader and it ends up hurting the narrative. I feel that after the red wedding he didn't know where to go with the story.

I do believe he knows where to go. He does very early set-up for most events actually. Red Wedding was a way to set up further conflict in the North with Stannis and the Boltons. Oberyns duel set up things with Dorne. Joffreys wedding leads to Tyrions storyline evolving, and the deaths of

Spoiler

Oberyn and Tywin

So in most cases, I think GRRM has a plan with shock-deaths.

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57 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

My issues with the show are these:

-A lot more sex scenes/general nudity. I can read/watch things that contain sex and nudity, but I don't like the scenes themselves. The show has a lot of unnecessary sex and nudity.

-I liked the complexity of the books, with a lot of minor plotlines and characters. The show has cut a lot of it out, but I understand why.

-They stormed up a bunch of my favorite characters, mostly Jaime Lannister and Stannis Baratheon. 

-A lot more small plot holes, such as Littlefingers apparent teleportation ability.

I hope Dany turns mad. Its really the only way I see her character becoming interesting. Right now I feel like she is an entitled hypocrite, who gets whatever she points at because she happens to own three dragons. When it comes to the Iron Throne, I was a firm Stannis supporter until (book and show spoiler):

If Dany actually says why she wants the throne instead of the whole 'its my birthright' thing, if it is a good reason, I may side with her, but right now I would agree with you that Jon should have the throne; he is the better leader, is far more flexible, actually understands the culture of Westeros. Heaps of my friends want Dany on the throne because she has suffered so much to get there, but I absolutely detest how she keeps using her suffering as a reason for why she should have the throne.

I would also agree with the sex scenes. The more recent seasons have been far more enjoyable without them. It got to a point when I was rolling my eyes at them and using them as a good opportunity to discuss the episode. So much better without them.

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1 minute ago, StormyQueen said:

I would also agree with the sex scenes. The more recent seasons have been far more enjoyable without them. It got to a point when I was rolling my eyes at them and using them as a good opportunity to discuss the episode. So much better without them.

They do have some good uses, like episode discussion/toilet break/go get more popcorn. But yeah, they appear less in later seasons. I was surprised when season 6 went on for like three or four episodes without anyone being naked. 

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17 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

Regarding this:

* George is a slow writer. He always has been. He's one of those folks who needs to have a particular setup and atmosphere around him in order to be able to write, and if he doesn't have that then he can't. Not every author can keep up Brandon's pace.

. He continues to do this. He's using his fame in order to launch other writers into that same sphere. See the recent news about him getting HBO to sign on to turn some of Nnedi Okorafor's work into a series.

 

I am very excited about the Who Fears Death news! 

As far as him needing a specific environment and being a slow writer, it's interesting to note that A Song of Ice and Fire could very well be longer in length than all his previous output! Frustrating? Perhaps, but not out of character. 

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"I will defend those who cannot defend themselves"
"I am the shield that guards the realms of man"

Beric and Jon confirmed potential Windrunners.

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16 hours ago, Oversleep said:

"I will defend those who cannot defend themselves"
"I am the shield that guards the realms of man"

Beric and Jon confirmed potential Windrunners.

I think Beric is a Herald. He keeps coming back when you kill him. This theory would also make the Lannisters Voidbringers.

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Does anyone else think that Jon bending the knee was totally out of character?

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11 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Does anyone else think that Jon bending the knee was totally out of character?

I don't think so, before the most recent chapter? Maybe, but I think he realised, as did Dany, that there was something more important than who was bowing to whom, while he may have known it before, he knew that she believed him and knew the importance of the threat, as well as being reminded of the threat.

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9 hours ago, StormyQueen said:

I don't think so, before the most recent chapter? Maybe, but I think he realised, as did Dany, that there was something more important than who was bowing to whom, while he may have known it before, he knew that she believed him and knew the importance of the threat, as well as being reminded of the threat.

Plus she had just lost one of her dragons saving him and his men's lives. That was one hell of a sacrifice.

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I join to the dislike on Dany, for the throne I go with:

Spoiler

Aegon, he's been educated to rule and know it's his duty, not his right, plus he can have heirs which I think is important if you want a kingdom to remain.If Dany gets the throne it'll probably trigger another war alfter her death.

That said I support the North independence.

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Wow, why all the Dany hate? I LOVE her. Sure she's aggressive and decisive which are normally male character traits. I definitely think Tyrion and now Jon will temper her impulsiveness and wildness. She cares about people. She's strong, she's ruthlessly just, and she'll be a hell of a good leader. 

On 19/08/2017 at 5:56 AM, StormyQueen said:

I never liked the books after the first one, and personally, I think the show does a better job. GRRM's prose just didn't work for me, and the books moved too slowly for me to be interested.

Also, as I have theorised since the third book or season (I can't remember exactly), I think Dany will make a terrible leader of Westeros, and that she will, eventually become something of a "mad queen". I don't think she will go mad per se, but I think she will reflect that. Game of Thrones has shown how it likes showing the past repeating itself, and I think Dany will be a reflection of her ancestors. And, she's on a very, very slippery slope right now. I didn't mind her before this recent season, but she has become so self-entitled that I just don't like her. Jon Snow for King?

I thought this season she was much less entitled. She's actually lost a lot and allowed herself to be emotionally vulnerable with Jon, in contrast to her past streak of arrogant victories. 

On 21/08/2017 at 11:07 PM, Oversleep said:

"I will defend those who cannot defend themselves"
"I am the shield that guards the realms of man"

Beric and Jon confirmed potential Windrunners.

I KNOW RIGHT. Wonder Woman says it to. 

 

And i really came here to share

my favourite joke from this past episode. 

Viserion is BLUE EYES WIGHT DRAGON. that is all. [/spoilers]

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1 minute ago, Delightful said:

she'll be a hell of a good leader

Definitely not. She could have given time Tarlys to think over switching sides which there was a chance they would if Tyrion had a chance to try to convince them; instead she have chosen to be bloodlust and burned them alive - and she completely ignored her Hand which is a very bad sign since Tyrion is the sanest and level headed she has.

She is too impulsive and while she may even be a good leader and conquer the Seven Kingdoms, she'll be a terrible leader in times of peace.

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21 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Definitely not. She could have given time Tarlys to think over switching sides which there was a chance they would if Tyrion had a chance to try to convince them; instead she have chosen to be bloodlust and burned them alive - and she completely ignored her Hand which is a very bad sign since Tyrion is the sanest and level headed she has.

She is too impulsive and while she may even be a good leader and conquer the Seven Kingdoms, she'll be a terrible leader in times of peace.

 it's not necessarily that she's impulsive, she just prioritises justice waaaay over mercy. It's consistent throughout.

And between Jon and Tyrion I think she'll grow more merciful. Though justice in war isn't a bad thing. 

Edited by Delightful
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Just now, Delightful said:

and it's not necessarily that she's impulsive, she just prioritises justice waaaay over mercy. It's consistent throughout.

Justice? What justice? What crime did Tarlys commit except obeying their vows? They swore an oath to the throne - which currently means Cersei - and if I recall correctly, Dany berated Varys for not being loyal to his previous masters.

That's hipocritical.

2 minutes ago, Delightful said:

That was a mistake and she's definitely impulsive, but I think she's mellowing out a little. And between Jon and Tyrion, I think she'll listen enough to think things through when necessary.

If anything, she started to listen less to Tyrion and now that Jon bend the knee and is not equal to her, she will eventually stop listening to him too.

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I enjoyed 1-3 immensely 4&5 is a slog. My characters closely resembled the Amoka portraits so when bk 5 came out after S1I was having hell trying to get the cast out of my head.

i think bk 6 is going to be a slog also just because of where the show is now so going back is going to be painful in certain povs!! Very much looking forward to the bk only casts and and also comparing the story differences between the 2 outlets.

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I'm not even sure if that Amoka site still exist so some of you may not even know what I'm referring to. If you have the white covered art book some of the portraits are in it but iirc it only has the Targs in it. The artists did pics for just about every character up to book 4 back then.

ok you can look at them here but there is no color like there like it used to have and the color tab seems broken.

http://towerofthehand.com/gallery/amok/

Edited by Briar King
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@Delightful I have a whole bunch of reasons for liking Daenerys:

-She is entitled despite, in my opinion lacking the right to the Throne. Every house in Westero (except the dead and banished Targaryens) swore fealty to Robert as king. That makes Robert the legal king, and Stannis the heir. Dany (or Jon, for that matter) lacks a claim in my opinion.

-She is hypocritical. She is mad about losing her throne in Westeros. She calls Robert the Usurper. So she starts taking other peoples thrones. Sure, they are bad people, but so was the Mad King. 

-It seems like a lot of her character is: I have dragons! which feels cheap. 

So yeah, thats basically it, I think. 

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6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

She is entitled despite, in my opinion lacking the right to the Throne. Every house in Westero (except the dead and banished Targaryens) swore fealty to Robert as king. That makes Robert the legal king, and Stannis the heir. Dany (or Jon, for that matter) lacks a claim in my opinion.

Well, her ancestors ruled westeros for 300, and only 15 years has passed since Robert's rebellion, that's a strong claim, my problem is that, when you rule a kingdom, you need a heir.She can't have children, so she begin a war, killing thousands and when she'd die there is another succession war, where more people die.

Also the way she manage the Tarlys, they keep their oaths and she killed them, if she keeps doing that she'll rule a kingdom made of ashes and vassals too scared to tell her what is she doing wrong.

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51 minutes ago, Idealistic said:

Also the way she manage the Tarlys, they keep their oaths and she killed them, if she keeps doing that she'll rule a kingdom made of ashes and vassals too scared to tell her what is she doing wrong.

I think it would be the best if she does her conquest and Tyrion goes Kingslayer.

Which means Jon takes the throne.

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