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Kandra Armor


Faceless Mist-Wraith

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Could a Kandra mold their body in such a way to create a shell or armor-like skin? They seem to have a better control of their own physiology in later time periods,

(BoM Spoilers)

Spoiler

Especially since they are able to change their own body chemistry and fingerprints.

If so, what are the exact limits of the types of tissue they can produce?

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Well we know they can't produce hair or nails, and we have this saying they wouldn't be able to mimic carapace 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1141#1

Quote

JALLER

I asked Brandon whether kandra could replicate parshendi carapace

BRANDON SANDERSON

they couldn't.

JALLER

whether or not it was to do with the same thing as hair and if that was the reason why,

BRANDON SANDERSON

sort of, yes.

They also can't produce their own bones, but have to build or borrow them. 

So I think they're limited to fleshlike structures. 

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Er...Officially, kandra are not able to replicate things like bone or hair, which would probably prohibit organic armor...

However...Kandra do appear to be able to create nails (which are basically made of the same stuff as hair), and the chemicals that bones and hair are made of are present in other cells that they are able to mimic...This is only paradoxical if you only consider a physics perspective (it is a magic system after all).

I believe the limitations on what kandra can do will be more realmatic than physical, in the sense that, from a biochemical perspective, they should definitely be able to mimic chitin and bone, but despite this, according to all sources, they cannot.  (So no, they probably can't become Greed from Full Metal Alchemist) :lol:

My headcanon at the moment is that this is some kind of inherited trait from the fact that they are hemalurgic constructs; IE: since hemalurgy confers power via contact with "blood," (we have indications that blood-like analogs may also be sufficient, so the term "blood" shouldn't necessarily be taken literally) a kandra can't mimic tissue that would not normally contact blood (like a lobster shell or hair).  This interpretation is by no means perfect, but I feel like it's a decent jumping off point.

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32 minutes ago, hwiles said:

My headcanon at the moment is that this is some kind of inherited trait from the fact that they are hemalurgic constructs; IE: since hemalurgy confers power via contact with "blood," (we have indications that blood-like analogs may also be sufficient, so the term "blood" shouldn't necessarily be taken literally) a kandra can't mimic tissue that would not normally contact blood (like a lobster shell or hair).  This interpretation is by no means perfect, but I feel like it's a decent jumping off point.

I'd guess that the limitation isn't a result of hemalurgy.

Because mistwraiths presumably also have this limitation.

It's possible that the Lord Ruler actually designed mistwraiths/kandra to possess this limitation. It wouldn't be the first time he deliberately placed flaws into his servants.

 

That all aside. Kandra do have one possibility for biological armor. BoM spoilers:

Spoiler

Seeing as MeLaan could walk around with an aluminum skeleton, complete with blades and stuff...

It is possible that a kandra could deliberately store some thin plates of specially created armor inside their body, and then later assemble it around their skin like natural carapace.

This would take some clever design, but I imagine that industrialized Scadrial would be capable of such a task.

 

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8 hours ago, hwiles said:

However...Kandra do appear to be able to create nails (which are basically made of the same stuff as hair), and the chemicals that bones and hair are made of are present in other cells that they are able to mimic...This is only paradoxical if you only consider a physics perspective (it is a magic system after all).

Wait, they can make nails? I guess it was just an assumption, but I always figured that the inability to produce keratin for hair was applied there too. 

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18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Wait, they can make nails? I guess it was just an assumption, but I always figured that the inability to produce keratin for hair was applied there too. 

There may have been a mention in BoM of MeLaan keeping a container for hair and nails, but I am unsure. I was mostly thinking about whether they could alter the thickness/durability of their skin in order to form a hide or armor-like skin.

It would likely be easier if they kept ready-made materials within themselves, I was just curious if they could improvise if needed.

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1 minute ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I was mostly thinking about whether they could alter the thickness/durability of their skin in order to form a hide or armor-like skin.

Well we know they can mimic animals, so if they understand the way something with skin like a rhinoceros is structured, I don't see why not. If it's flesh based I think they could manage it. Thick tough skin shouldn't be an issue. 

I seriously thought they were only limited by size, and the need for Bones/hair/carapace/etc. 

Even then, they could build a "hidden" bone structure to be kept just under the skin at the risk of less natural appearance and possible flexibility problems. 

The bigger question I think though, is unless the person attacking them knows what they are and knows to used acid against them, why bother? Cuts and punctures don't seem to bother Kandra at all. They just seal themselves back up and keep going. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The bigger question I think though, is unless the person attacking them knows what they are and knows to used acid against them, why bother? Cuts and punctures don't seem to bother Kandra at all. They just seal themselves back up and keep going. 

I was mostly thinking that they might not want to expend effort to heal themselves, or reduce damage from a surprise attack. ReLuur for example was caught off guard and as a result lost one of his spikes.

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5 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I was mostly thinking that they might not want to expend effort to heal themselves, or reduce damage from a surprise attack. ReLuur for example was caught off guard and as a result lost one of his spikes.

For more extensive damage, I can see that, in ReLuur's case, wasn't that an explosion that literally ripped his arm off? I'm not sure how much armor is going to help in instances like that, at least not of organically grown forms. 

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7 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I was mostly thinking that they might not want to expend effort to heal themselves, or reduce damage from a surprise attack. ReLuur for example was caught off guard and as a result lost one of his spikes.

Interesting thought, do we have confirmation anywhere that reforming thier bodies makes the kandra tired? ReLuur was injured in an explosion, so I'm not sure how much thick skin would have helped, but they might benefit from a padded layer of fat, to cushion bone breaking blows.

Edit: Also on the topic of kandra in battle, someone needs to ask Brandon if the kandra can form structures like venom glands.

Edit again: I added the question about venom, and also hide, to the ultimate list of questions for Brandon.

Edited by Cowmanthethird
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I'd really like to know why kandra can't grow hair and bones... they may not be technically alive themselves, but they are produced by living cells, and it seems less complex than a lot of the stuff the kandra manage in Era 2 especially.

I'd think it's a Realmatic/magical limitation, except that there's a WOB that the Kandra don't get any special Realmatic/magical benefits from the bones in terms of mimicking people, it's just physical structure.

(Of course, pursue that line of thought far enough and the kandra could basically become practically-invulnerable living nanotech factories, so...)

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  • 1 month later...

It would not surprise me if kandra actually can slowly create hair/ bones venom etc, they just have not figured out how. Everything we have seen thus far involves them converting their mass directly into the flesh they want and using it immediately. But only living tissue can be made this way. Bones and hair however are largely a non-living biproduct of specialized living tissue. It may not occur to a person capable of instantly creating nearly any body parts they want to try fabricating a calcium or keratin structure the slow way. Especially sense the idea of inherited bones has been a core part of their culture sines the first generation. 

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On ‎08‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 9:03 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I'd really like to know why kandra can't grow hair and bones... they may not be technically alive themselves, but they are produced by living cells, and it seems less complex than a lot of the stuff the kandra manage in Era 2 especially.

I'd think it's a Realmatic/magical limitation, except that there's a WOB that the Kandra don't get any special Realmatic/magical benefits from the bones in terms of mimicking people, it's just physical structure.

(Of course, pursue that line of thought far enough and the kandra could basically become practically-invulnerable living nanotech factories, so...)

I posted this in the aquatic Kandra thread, but I figure I can double dip here:

 

I believe the reasoning is that Kandra can mimic cellular structures, but their own cells don't actually change in anything but conformation. They do not produce the genes required to create cells that actually produce things like hair and bones, though they can mimic those cells. I would say that they can essentially turn their cells pluripotent and then differentiate them from there, which would allow them to create all sorts of specialized structures, but still not allow them to make glands that actually secrete hair, or cells that lay down bone.

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1 hour ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

I posted this in the aquatic Kandra thread, but I figure I can double dip here:

 

I believe the reasoning is that Kandra can mimic cellular structures, but their own cells don't actually change in anything but conformation. They do not produce the genes required to create cells that actually produce things like hair and bones, though they can mimic those cells. I would say that they can essentially turn their cells pluripotent and then differentiate them from there, which would allow them to create all sorts of specialized structures, but still not allow them to make glands that actually secrete hair, or cells that lay down bone.

The problem with that is that Kandra can 'mimic' sperm and eggs, resulting in perfectly healthy human children (though a Kandra mother would have to remain 'human' from conception to birth.) This would indicate that Kandra CAN create the genes necessary for bones and hair. I fail to see how healthy human children could be conceived by Kandra otherwise.

Better question - why not create a skeleton from cartilage? Why hasn't this been tried?

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Better question - why not create a skeleton from cartilage? Why hasn't this been tried?

We have confirmation that they can't create carapace. I think that Cartilage is on the list of things they can't do, it's just usually lumped in with "the skeleton" 

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2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The problem with that is that Kandra can 'mimic' sperm and eggs, resulting in perfectly healthy human children (though a Kandra mother would have to remain 'human' from conception to birth.) This would indicate that Kandra CAN create the genes necessary for bones and hair. I fail to see how healthy human children could be conceived by Kandra otherwise.

Better question - why not create a skeleton from cartilage? Why hasn't this been tried?

Oh wow, I hadn't realized there was WoB on a Kandra being able to reproduce with a human. Just looked it up, "Because when the kandra is in human form, they can identically recreate the bodily functions and things if they want to." That's really really interesting, and destroys my thoughts on why Kandra couldn't make hair.

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We have confirmation that they can't create carapace. I think that Cartilage is on the list of things they can't do, it's just usually lumped in with "the skeleton" 

Carapace is more along the lines of bone/hair, though. Since Kandra have ears, and they can use bones that are long long dead, they have to be able to make Cartilage, imo.

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5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We have confirmation that they can't create carapace. I think that Cartilage is on the list of things they can't do, it's just usually lumped in with "the skeleton" 

But they make noses and ears, both of which are formed from cartilage. So they definitely can make it; why not craft a skeleton?

BTW, don't Kandra craft teeth? 

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We have confirmation that they can't create carapace. I think that Cartilage is on the list of things they can't do, it's just usually lumped in with "the skeleton" 

They would have to be able to create cartilage however, since we have seen examples of Kandra creating bodies using only the bones, and they were not missing ears, nose, etc.

Spoiler

When TenSoon pretended to be Kelsier.

edit: Ninja'd by @Kingsdaughter613

Edited by Faceless Mist-Wraith
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1 minute ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

Carapace is more along the lines of bone/hair, though. Since Kandra have ears, and they can use bones that are long long dead, they have to be able to make Cartilage, imo.

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But they make noses and ears, both of which are formed from cartilage. So they definitely can make it; why not craft a skeleton?

Just now, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

They would have to be able to create cartilage however, since we have seen examples of Kandra creating bodies using only the bones, and they were not missing ears, nose, etc.

  Reveal hidden contents

When TenSoon pretended to be Kelsier.

 

Nose ears and kneecaps are the most visible cartilage, and the only portions of cartilage that they would need for visual effect. 

I agree it's likely. I want to ask about this now though. Whether Kandra have to carry pieces of false cartilage that they can use to mimic those or if they can make it, because while cartilage isn't as durable as bone, it could be used for makeshift parts. 

Why didn't MeLaan use cartilage to connect the broken pieces of bone instead of tendon? 

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6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Even better; what if a Kandra made a cartilage skeleton, but used the material in teeth to create a solid core? Would that work as a support?

Aren't both Dentin and Enamel essentially types of bone?

Edit: it is a "calcified tissue." so I'm guessing that falls under the bone thing as well. I always assumed that teeth were either with the skeleton, or needed to be replaced. 

Edited by Calderis
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12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Aren't both Dentin and Enamel essentially types of bone?

Edit: it is a "calcified tissue." so I'm guessing that falls under the bone thing as well. I always assumed that teeth were either with the skeleton, or needed to be replaced. 

I've always grouped teeth into the same category as bones and hair, also.

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