[Secret History Spoilers] Mormonism and Scadrial

[MPHRD]

I am not Mormon but I have read a fair about it and other world religions and I noticed some interesting similarities between Mormonism and whats happened on Scadrial. If I get any details of Mormon theology wrong please correct me. Some of what is here is pretty obvious but some I have not seen anyone say before. Also, I’m not trying to make the argue that Mistborn is secret Mormon propaganda, more that growing up Mormon affected and inspired Brandon Sanderson in interesting ways. 

First, the main premise of the Cosmere feels inspired or similar to Mormon theology. This is a simplification but in Mormon theology, anyone can become god and get their own new planet. Similar to the idea of the 16 shards becoming gods and getting planets. 

Another parallel is Harmony to the Trinity. In most Christian theology (Honestly I’m not 100% sure the Mormon view on the Trinity so this is a bit of a side point). For those not familiar with Christian theology the Trinity is the three “persons” of god. God the Father, God the Won (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. (Sorry if I am using Catholic terms, I recently took a class in Catholic theology and I don’t know what words are Catholic and what words are used by everyone). Harmony is also a trinity of sorts. Harmony is the Shard of Ruin, The Shard of Preservation and Sazed. While Harmony does not have the exact same properties, Most Christians believe the Trinity can’t be separated, and Shards clearly can be and Ruin and Preservation are not separate “persons” but powers. Still, it's an interesting comparison. I could see Pathian/Surviorist theologians use term “trinity”. 

Back to Mormonism, one of the most well know part of Mormonism is the Golden Plates. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith, a Mormon prophet found golden plates with the Book of Mormon on them. In the book of Mormon proper, a variety of metal plates are also used to write down stories. What does this remind you of? It reminds me of the metal plates used through out the books to hide and protect writing from shards. Kwaan, Spook and other write important things in metal plates. Even in era 2, I think metal plates are used for important things like constable badges. 

The church of the Survivor started in a similar way as Christianity. In Survivorist theology Kelsier died and came back to life and met with a chosen few, similar to Jesus in Christian theology. But what makes Survivorism truly parallel Mormonism is what happened in The Bands of Morning.  One of the cores of Mormon theology is that after his resurrection Jesus went to the Americas to teach to the peoples there. This is exactly what happened with Kelsier, after his real resurrection (not the fake Kandra one) He went to the other side of the world and taught them the metallic arts and it seems a new religion or at least new religious beliefs. This is such a strong parallel that I am surprised I have not seen any one post about it. 

Thoughts? anything I got wrong?

[Ammanas]

@MPHRD There are many ties between the Mormon religion and the cosmere in my opinion (so many in fact that I don't know if I am just reaching and drawing parallels when there are none there). To correct a few things though

1. Anyone can become a God and gain their own planet.

Well not just anyone. Also this may be kind of confusing, but this isn't doctrine. It is generally believed, taught and understood that a man or woman by receiving and keeping convenants/ordinances and living a good life that they can undergo apotheosis and become a God. This idea comes from the Joseph Smith's King Follett discourse. What many people (even within the LDS church) don't understand is that very few things in the church is doctrine. Much of it is peoples ideas that members generally accept.

2. The Trinity.

In Mormon theology it is the Godhead and it is believed that they are three distinct personages. Very different from "The Trinity".

Edited August 18, 2017 by Ammanas

[Andy92]

Well Brandon is Mormon so I figured similarities would tend to occur in his writing maybe even somewhat subconsciously for him. 

[ryshadium90]

55 minutes ago, MPHRD said:

First, the main premise of the Cosmere feels inspired or similar to Mormon theology. This is a simplification but in Mormon theology, anyone can become god and get their own new planet. Similar to the idea of the 16 shards becoming gods and getting planets. 

Back to Mormonism, one of the most well know part of Mormonism is the Golden Plates. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith, a Mormon prophet found golden plates with the Book of Mormon on them. In the book of Mormon proper, a variety of metal plates are also used to write down stories. What does this remind you of? It reminds me of the metal plates used through out the books to hide and protect writing from shards. Kwaan, Spook and other write important things in metal plates. Even in era 2, I think metal plates are used for important things like constable badges. 

The church of the Survivor started in a similar way as Christianity. In Survivorist theology Kelsier died and came back to life and met with a chosen few, similar to Jesus in Christian theology. But what makes Survivorism truly parallel Mormonism is what happened in The Bands of Morning.  One of the cores of Mormon theology is that after his resurrection Jesus went to the Americas to teach to the peoples there. This is exactly what happened with Kelsier, after his real resurrection (not the fake Kandra one) He went to the other side of the world and taught them the metallic arts and it seems a new religion or at least new religious beliefs. This is such a strong parallel that I am surprised I have not seen any one post about it. 

Thoughts? anything I got wrong?

Wow, these are some pretty cool thoughts. I'm LDS, and I agree on what @Ammanas said, but I really like the parallels that you drew from this series. It's amazing to think where such small details might've come from in Sanderson's life, like deciding to base power source and such on metals. We do believe that Christ went to the Americas, (hence certain chapters in the Book of Mormon) yet He also said somewhere that he was leaving to visit other sheep, who are not of this fold, or something similar to that; people besides those in the Bible and the Book or Mormon. Makes me wonder if Kelsier has gone to other places in the world besides the two general locations to teach the metallic arts, or how to survive.

[MPHRD]

41 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

Well not just anyone. Also this may be kind of confusing, but this isn't doctrine. It is generally believed, taught and understood that a man or woman by receiving and keeping convenants/ordinances and living a good life that they can undergo apotheosis and become a God. This idea comes from the Joseph Smith's King Follett discourse. What many people (even within the LDS church) don't understand is that very few things in the church is doctrine. Much of it is peoples ideas that members generally accept.

 

@Ammanas Yea looks like my understanding is an oversimplification, I will have to look into it more. 

 

@ryshadium90 Thanks I hope I represented your faith fairly well. Kelsier is up to something and helping (or with Kelsier possibly using) other peoples on other worlds seems like a solid guess. 

[Frostlander]

These parallels are actually one of my favorite things about these books. It's fun to see them pop up as I read, but what I really like is how they make the Cosmere books so fresh yet familiar. I read books that are based on (I don't know what to call them) "standard" western or Judeo-Christian inspired fantasy structures all the time. Here, there are all these themes that feel new or surprising (to me, at least), and they aren't half-baked or experimental.

Yes, Sanderson does like to try out "what would happen if...", but because the LDS thematic differences are so well developed and often used subconsciously, they are authentic foundations to the stories and not added just to be different. Include his interest in comparative religion and global perspective, and these are just amazing books. 

And, of course, the most important thing is that he's a great writer, period. 

(As with the other posters' comments, I hope this post comes across as respectful and admiring of what ideological and religious diversity can add to stories!)

Edited August 18, 2017 by Frostlander

[ryshadium90]

12 hours ago, Frostlander said:

And, of course, the most important thing is that he's a great writer, period. 

So true!

Reading this thread got me thinking of another parallel that I saw when reading Mistborn. Sazed's whole confliction of religions is kind of akin to what any person today might feel about all the religions. There are some people out there who think that we as Mormons think all other religions are wrong and ours is the only right one. Which is really sad because it makes getting to know people so hard. We believe that every religion has parts of the truth. We believe in Christ just like other Christian religions, despite what others might say, and we also have some similarities with non Christians religions, though I'm really sorry as I can't think of any off the top of my head. This is similar to how Sazed found peace in the end as Harmony and that each of the religions, though they might've contradicted each other in themselves, still had bits of truth that could contribute to the whole. (Meh, hope I didn't sound preachy or anything.)

[Ammanas]

@ryshadium90Here is another Mistborn parallel that is from one of the more obscure Mormon beliefs. Remember when both Vin and Lord Ruler held Ruin and could make that planet zoom around the universe getting closer and further away from the Sun? It kind of reminds me of how many believe that the Earth was by the planet Kolob (which was right by God's throne) and when Adam and Eve had fallen in the Garden the planet earth zoomed away:

“When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in Heaven. And when man fell . . . the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system, and the sun became our light . . . This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father” (Journal of Discourses Volume 17, pg. 143).

Edit: If this sounds a little too crazy for you it is another one of the common beliefs, but certainly not doctrine.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Ammanas

[ryshadium90]

@Ammanas

Huh, that's pretty good. So the Scadrial's "glorified state" would be where Harmony put it back?

[Ammanas]

1 minute ago, ryshadium90 said:

@Ammanas

Huh, that's pretty good. So the Scadrial's "glorified state" would be where Harmony put it back?

Thats one way to look at it! Although, as we found out in Mistborn era 2, there are still problems in the world. The latter-day saint perspective is a little different as we believe the earth will be basically a utopia with Christ reigning. I am not sure if this is supposed to happen during the millennium reign or after final judgment though.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 8/18/2017 at 8:40 PM, ryshadium90 said:

So true!

Reading this thread got me thinking of another parallel that I saw when reading Mistborn. Sazed's whole confliction of religions is kind of akin to what any person today might feel about all the religions. There are some people out there who think that we as Mormons think all other religions are wrong and ours is the only right one. Which is really sad because it makes getting to know people so hard. We believe that every religion has parts of the truth. We believe in Christ just like other Christian religions, despite what others might say, and we also have some similarities with non Christians religions, though I'm really sorry as I can't think of any off the top of my head. This is similar to how Sazed found peace in the end as Harmony and that each of the religions, though they might've contradicted each other in themselves, still had bits of truth that could contribute to the whole. (Meh, hope I didn't sound preachy or anything.)

Judaism and Islam both have similarities to Christianity, though the two are actually closest to each other. The reasons for this are fairly obvious as Christianity and Islam have a common root in Judaism.

Interestingly, the three realms exist in Judaism. So do cognitive shades. (And extra dimensional creatures too!) Do they also exist in Mormon theology? I wondered if the concept was inherited, as the Jewish source is rather obscure and it is more likely that Brandon might have come across the concept in his own theology.

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Interestingly, the three realms exist in Judaism. So do cognitive shades. (And extra dimensional creatures too!) Do they also exist in Mormon theology? I wondered if the concept was inherited, as the Jewish source is rather obscure and it is more likely that Brandon might have come across the concept in his own theology.

Considering that he's referenced the surgebinding chart and the double eye as being based on the Tree of Sephiroth from the Jewish Kabbalah, he's aware of those aspects of Judaism. 

I don't know enough about Mormonism to know if there is something similar there, but my curiosity is definitely piqued. 

[Ammanas]

@Calderis@Kingsdaughter613 Most Mormons believe the following: that when we die the spirit goes to a place called "Spirit World" to await the resurrection of the body. Spirit World is upon this earth, but on another plane of existense. It is divided into prison and paradice, but it is the same place they just exist in different states of being. Here is a quote from Brigham Young. You can check it out in the teachings of the presidents manuel:

President Brigham Young declared: When you lay down this tabernacle, where are you going? Into the spiritual world…Where is the spirit world? It is right here. Do the good and evil spirits go together? Yes they do…. Do they go beyond the boundaries of the organized earth? No, they do not…. Can you see it with your natural eyes? No. Can you see spirits in this room? No. Suppose the Lord should touch your eyes that you might see, could you then see the spirits? Yes, as plainly as you now see bodies 

[ryshadium90]

@Ammanas Totally agree. There's also the idea that we believe in worlds without number. It doesn't just pertain to outer space kind of worlds and that whole thing, but also that there might be worlds intersecting our own, sharing the same space but not knowing the other exists.

I just thought of another parallel, but this has to with the Stormlight Archive. Kaladin, is a surgeon, and one the Ideals he spoke was that he would protect even those he hated, so long as it was right. Multiple times in the Bible, there is a phrase where Christ compares himself to a physician, and said "They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but the sinners to repentance" (Mark 2:17), meaning that He came to protect all, not "special" individuals who had gained his favor. Whether or not this is a true parallel, I love how Sanderson voices how being kind in general is such an important thing.

Edited August 24, 2017 by ryshadium90

[Sparkrunner]

I am not going to go into the resurrection here, but we believe that in the millennium, the thousand years after Christ's second coming, we will receive help from those who have died in doing their genealogy.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Roadwalker said:

I am not going to go into the resurrection here, but we believe that in the millennium, the thousand years after Christ's second coming, we will receive help from those who have died in doing their genealogy.

Maybe I just don't understand the context... But you'll need to figure out people's genealogy? For why? 

[Sparkrunner]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Maybe I just don't understand the context... But you'll need to figure out people's genealogy? For why? 

OK. We believe that there will be a final judgement at one point, where everyone either go to Hell, or Paradise, and there are three levels of paradise, Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial, from least to greatest. Before this final judgement, however, there are the souls of everyone who has died. If a person has had all of their ordinances done, they can wait in Paradise for the judgement. If they have not, then they must wait in spirit prison. In spirit prison, they will be taught about the gospel. Why do we do genealogy? Because if someone has not had their ordinances done when they are alive, (ordinances are things like baptisms,) then we can perform proxy ordinances for them. They can choose to accept or decline these ordinances. In order to perform the proxy ordinances, we need to have a birth and death date. For ordinances like sealing someone to their spouse or parents, we need to know those names as well.

If I missed stuff, just ask and I can keep filling in.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Roadwalker

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Roadwalker said:

If I missed stuff, just ask and I can keep filling in.

Nah, that explains it. Necessary information is needed to preform certain rites.

Thank you. 

[Sparkrunner]

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/128?lang=eng

There are some scriptures about proxy baptisms here, if you want more detail.

[ryshadium90]

Hm, was looking at another thread about keteks, and realized that could be another LDS influenced idea. In the Book of Mormon, there is a writing pattern used called a chiasmus, which is basically a ketek but applied to a paragraph or longer, with the most important idea being in the middle.

[AC12]

Not to dig up an old topic, but I just barely found this thread, and as a Mormon, let me just say I really appreciate the respectful and well educated discussion of our beliefs. The 17th Shard has officially renewed my faith in the internet! Also @ryshadium90, I have also noticed the similarity between chiasmus and keteks, which I have found very interesting. I have done a bit of research on chiasmus in the past because it has interested me and it is an Ancient Hebrew literally device that can be found in the Book of Mormon as well as several places in the Old Testament. A really good example can be found in Genesis 7:21-23 for anyone who is interested.

[MPHRD]

2 hours ago, AC12 said:

Not to dig up an old topic, but I just barely found this thread, and as a Mormon, let me just say I really appreciate the respectful and well educated discussion of our beliefs. The 17th Shard has officially renewed my faith in the internet! Also @ryshadium90, I have also noticed the similarity between chiasmus and keteks, which I have found very interesting. I have done a bit of research on chiasmus in the past because it has interested me and it is an Ancient Hebrew literally device that can be found in the Book of Mormon as well as several places in the Old Testament. A really good example can be found in Genesis 7:21-23 for anyone who is interested.

Yea I was a little worried when I posted that something I said or a reply would be offensive, on accident or on purpose, but 17shard is a pretty great forum. 

 

And I had not heard of chiasmus, the idea does seem similar to Keteks.

 

[YungDankBlast]

I've always liked Brandon's idea of the three Realms, the physical, cognitive, and spiritual.  I don't know if this came from LDS beliefs at all, but I like how he limits information about the Spiritual Realm to almost leave it to the minds of the readers as the afterlife for his characters.  It is described as a place of absolute truth where connections play an important role, where space and time have little meaning, and where the majority of power resides.  The idea resonates with my beliefs for some reason.

[+Extesian]

@CayJoBla its Platonic. A couple of WoBs for you

Quote

Nepene

You've mentioned several philosophical concepts used in the writing of your books, like Jung's collective unconsciousness, Plato's cave. Could you expand a bit on your use of those in your books, and whether you think it is necessary to use philosophy to make a good fantasy world?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think it's necessary at all. The writer's own fascinations--whatever they are--can add to the writing experience. But yes, some philosophical ideas worked into my fiction. Plato's theory of the forms has always fascinated, and so the idea of a physical/cognitive/spiritual realm is certainly a product of this. Human perception of ideals has a lot to do with the cognitive realm, and a true ideal has a lot to do with the spiritual realm.

As for more examples, they're spread through my fiction. Spinoza is in there a lot, and Jung has a lot to do with the idea of spiritual connectivity (and how the Parshendi can all sing the same songs.)

Nepene

Not completely sure where Spinoaza comes in. I guess the shards are part of the natural world and have no personality without a human wielder.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes on Spinoza there, and also the idea of God being in everything, and everything of one substance. Unifying laws. Those sorts of things. (Less his determinism, though.)

Sources

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I wanted to ask whether cake has a soul? In Realmatic theory, stuff has souls. So, somebody turns wheat into flour, and flour has a soul. Do they come together when I bake the cake?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

...So, this gets into some weird cosmere theory stuff. The level that if you are a student of philosophy, you'll recognize just wearing on the sleeve where this one came from. This is a mashup of Shinto beliefs and the theory of the forms by Plato, and kind of its own weird thing, that became Realmatic theory in the cosmere...

So, in the cosmere, things take on an Identity and a soul based on how people perceive them. It's human perception that is creating a lot of this, because the various powers that made the universe have this sort of desire to be sentient. And power left long too long in the cosmere starts thinking, that's just how it goes, and starts thinking of itself the way it is perceived. So, that cake, as soon as its created, the disparate parts of the souls start being thought of as a cake, and start gaining some traction as a cake. If you left that cake alone long enough, which wouldn't take too long for a cake because people don't look at cake and think "Oh, a bunch of wheat and flour." They think "Cake." That thing will start having a combined soul of the various bits of power, and the longer you leave it, the more permanency it's gonna have as a Spiritual artifact in the cosmere.

So, yes, cake has a soul.

Source

 

[ryshadium90]

9 hours ago, CayJoBla said:

I've always liked Brandon's idea of the three Realms, the physical, cognitive, and spiritual.  I don't know if this came from LDS beliefs at all, but I like how he limits information about the Spiritual Realm to almost leave it to the minds of the readers as the afterlife for his characters.  It is described as a place of absolute truth where connections play an important role, where space and time have little meaning, and where the majority of power resides.  The idea resonates with my beliefs for some reason.

Well, the most that I'm aware of in terms of "realms" with LDS beliefs is that we are made up of a spiritual and temporal(physical) selves and both have the ability to die (spiritual death/temporal death) It's not really three, as it's kind of missing the cognitive part. Guess that could be where the two kind of meet and the space that influences how you act in both spheres.

Can I ask what your beliefs are?