Popular Post Pagerunner Posted August 15, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 I recently concluded my Stormlight reread, in preparation for the new book I’m sure you’ve all heard is coming out. I paid special attention to several topics, like the religious tenets of Roshar and their perception of the afterlife. I need to start by crediting FeatherWriter for her well-construed theory about the Rosharan afterlife; without it, it’s entirely possible that the observations I make below would have passed me by. But, though she did write a good theory, a lot has happened in the cosmere since the publication of Words of Radiance, like Mistborn: Secret History and the Rosharan Essay in Arcanum Unbounded, that give new clues to life after death in the cosmere and the principles that govern such behavior. Her topic is not a prerequisite to understanding this one; I intend to build every point up from the ground, to come to a more specific interpretation. But since her work was an inspiration, it would be a disservice to neglect. Reflections of Radiancy Vorinism. The religion of Eastern Roshar, the home of the Knights Radiant. As seen by Dalinar in the vision where he fights alongside two Radiants: Quote “Urithiru is where our orders are centered, but we live in cities all across Alethela.” … “I’m fine,” Dalinar said. “Alethk … Alethela. You live there?” “It is our duty and our privilege,” the woman said, “to stay vigilant for the Desolation. One kingdom to study the arts of war so that the others might have peace. We die so that you may live. It has ever been our place.” Radiants were not evenly spread over Roshar; they were centered in the east, in ancient Alethela. I believe that their proximity to the eastern nations led to the local religion to emulate the Radiants; when you have such deific figures present nearby, it would make sense for not only Alethela but the also bordering nations of Valhav and Natanatan to base their religious customs around them. There are several Vorin traditions, first presented in Words of Radiance, that have obvious ties, from the reader’s perspective, to the trappings of the Radiants and their mission. The first is explicitly laid out by Shallan: Quote “The Oathgates were a symbol,” Shallan said, continuing to walk. “The Vorin Right of Travel, given to all citizens of sufficient rank, is based on the Heralds’ declaration that all borders should be open. If you were going to create a symbol of that unity – a portal that connected all of the Silver Kingdoms together – where would you put it?” She connects the formal right to open borders with the ability to travel through the Oathgates. Though an astute observation, I believe she has mistakenly reversed the causality of the matter. Instead of the Oathgates being a natural progression of the Right of Travel, I think Vorin beliefs were initially formed by the ease of travel made possible by the Oathgates. (I believe the Oathgates may be responsible for the original shaping of the ten Dawncities through Realmatics, and the intentional abuse thereof by humans the method of the destruction of Stormseat. But that’s a tangent, and not terribly relevant at the moment. Suffice to say that the Right of Travel is drawn from the Radiants and their Oathgates.) Another Vorin tradition we learn about is not understood as a connection to anything deeper by the characters, but I’m sure any wary reader of Stormlight will recognize the reference: Quote “The Right of Challenge is an ancient tradition – some say the Heralds instituted it. A lighteyed warrior who has proven himself before the Almighty and the king, turning and demanding justice from one who wronged him…” The Right of Challenge is a Vorin tradition that Sadeas used to duel Yenev during the reunification of Alethkar, and that Adolin almost successfully used to duel Sadeas on-screen in Words of Radiance. But I think it is apparent that the ancient tradition they reference is not primarily a thing of Rosharan culture; instead, it is almost assuredly referring to the ‘rules’ that Tanavast says Odium is bound by, and the reference to a champion. There is admittedly much consternation among the fanbase as to the meaning of those lines about a champion and who may potentially be a champion for Honor or for Odium. But, as with the Right of Travel, the key principle is that modern Vorinism has traditions that are based on much older rules, reflections of something broader. Glyphwards may be another similar reflection. In the present day, their prayers to the Almighty are written out as glyphs and then burned, or drawn in flammable ink to form a glyph out of flames. This is reminiscent of glowing glyphs of power in the old days. From one of Dalinar’s old visions: Quote The Plate glowed with an even blue light, and glyphs – some familiar, others not – were etched into the metal. They trailed blue vapor…His armor no longer glowed, though one large symbol – emblazoned across the front of the breastplate – still gave off a faint blue light. I’m curious if there was magic behind ancient glyphs. If there was, that could be the inspiration of modern glyphwards: glowing glyphs granted power, so the people would make glowing glyphs of their own by using flammable inks. Which then devolved into just lighting them on fire, because people are perpetually unimaginative in all areas save methods of destruction. One further reflection that I see is embedded deeper in Vorinism, in the Devotaries: Quote Yes, the highest Calling of men was to join in the battle in the afterlife to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, but the Almighty accepted the excellence of any man or woman, regardless of what they did. You just did your best, picking a profession and an attribute of the Almighty to emulate. A Calling and a Glory, it was said. You worked hard at your profession, and you spent your life trying to live according to a single ideal. A single ideal; just like the Radiant Orders would pursue. Before Words of Radiance was released, I thought that Dalinar was going to become a Stoneward, because his Devotary was associated with Taln; as it happened, he became a Bondsmith, so I suppose he’s like Ym and would have been attractive to multiple kinds of spren. But back to the topic at hand, Vorinism adopted the Radiant concept of ideals and oaths. The ardents Elevate people in their Callings as they progress; Adolin was unable to be Elevated because he wasn’t allowed to duel during Way of Kings. This is too much to be a coincidence; it must be a reflection of Radiant traditions in Vorinism. Shades of Truth Formal Vorinism is not the only place to look for hints of the Radiants. Darkeyes don’t spend much time with the ardents, aside from vocational training, but their beliefs are made evident through their daily speech. Specifically, through their superstitions and through their curses. I will not attempt to document instances where Vorin individuals, upper class and lower, curse using the Almighty, the Heralds, or the Stormfather. If anyone doubts that such phrases occur, then I would encourage you to open to nearly any page in either Stormlight book, and you’ll almost certainly find a “Kelek’s breath” or “Nalan’s hand.” These curses are not merely superficial: one, in particular, by the leathery-faced bridgeman reflects the dark secret that nine of the Heralds bear: Quote “Talanelat’Elin, bearer of all agonies.” His knowledge of that particular piece of information is quite puzzling to me, since I cannot fathom how awareness of the Heralds’ betrayal has made its way into vernacular expressions. But regardless of the specific explanation for that line, it shows that the common people of Alethkar do somehow know of Heraldic things, even only in an unconscious way through their linguistic expressions. Very telling to me is one piece of superstition that is brought up three separate times by darkeyes: the Shades of the Knights Radiant. First when Kaladin was in the slave wagons, second when he watched Gaz recover his spheres after a Highstorm, and third in a flashback with Kaladin and Tien talking about a home that was destroyed during a highstorm. Quote Occasionally, light would flash without the thunder. The slaves would groan in terror at this, thinking about the Stormfather, the shades of the Lost Radiants, or the Voidbringers – all of which were said to haunt the most violent highstorms. Quote It was a risk. Even a sheltered basket could get torn free. Some people believe that the shades of the Lost Radiants haunted the storms, stealing spheres. Perhaps that was true. Quote They burned prayers of thanks to the Almighty while at the same time whispering of dangerous things that moved in the darkness at full storm. Were the Voidbringers behind the destruction, or had it been the shades of the Lost Radiants? The presence of the Radiants in the Highstorm is significant because the eye of the storm is not entirely in the Physical Realm; as best I can understand, it is the eminent candidate for Honor’s mobile perpendicularity. When Way of Kings was first released, the only glimpse we had of an afterlife was the Returned in Warbreaker, where the dead returned in physical form. Further elaborations in Mistborn and Arcanum Unbounded will prove relevant, but I will hold off to discuss the specific realmatic phenomenon I believe is happening until further below. For the moment, suffice to say that there is mechanism for souls to remain in the Cognitive Realm after the body has died, and that a window to the Cognitive Realm through the highstorm may provide a method for those souls to interact with the Physical Realm once again. The Heraldic Forces Having thus established the concept of Vorin beliefs potentially being drawn from the traditions of the Radiants, the time has come to evaluate the most prominent of Vorin doctrine known to us, one which is repeated time and time again throughout the text. There are many references in Way of Kings, and to a lesser extent Words of Radiance, to the Vorin belief in the afterlife. I will not attempt a comprehensive compilation of such quotes, but I will present the most complete citation I could find: Quote The devotaries taught that when men died, the most valiant among them – the ones who fulfilled their Callings best - would rise to help reclaim heaven. Each man would do as he had done in life. Spearmen to fight, farmers to work spiritual farms, lighteyes to lead. The ardents were careful to point out that excellence in any Calling would bring power. A farmer would be able to wave his hand and create great fields of spiritual crops. A spearman would be a great warrior, able to cause thunder with his shield and lightning with his spear …. Perhaps the bridgemen wouldn’t be needed in the War for Heaven. Only the very most skilled went there anyway. Others would simply slumber until the Tranquiline Halls were reclaimed. Vorinism teaches that the dead fight the Voidbringers in an army called the Heraldic Forces (the name being the only piece of theology that isn’t explicitly laid out in the above quote). Is there truth behind these teachings? I do not believe it is literal; too many of their other teachings appear to be truths about the Radiants, turned into theological principles for the common people. I strenuously doubt that a follower of Vorinism, no matter how devout they may be, could attain to join the armies in the Tranquiline Halls. But I do think the Heraldic Forces are real. I just think they are comprised of Radiants. Let us the a mechanism in the cosmere for souls to remain after death. In all the cosmere books, there are similarities between the fundamental principles; in fact, on one planet, they are even called Shades! But the technical term for these ghosts is ‘Cognitive Shadows.’ There is something very important required for this to happen, for a soul to remain in the Cognitive Realm after it has separated from its body: a large piece of Investiture. There is debate, both among readers in our world and scholars in the cosmere, as to the exact function of this piece of Investiture. When someone dies, separating their soul from their physical body, that soul will move Beyond after several moments disappearing to a place of great mystery, the true afterlife. But a large piece of Investiture can cause the soul to stay in the Cognitive Realm without moving on; it may be that the Investiture serves as an anchor (as is my belief), or it may be that the Investiture imprints on a soul and copies it such that the being effectively persists after their soul has moved Beyond. The exact nature of the piece of Investiture can vary. We’ve seen a shardpool allow this in Mistborn, a Splinter of Endowment (divine Breath) in Warbreaker, and a splinter of Ambition in Shadows for Silence. Khriss writes in the Rosharan Essay in Arcanum Unbounded that there may be Cognitive Shadows on Braize. If this is the case, how did they get there? There is no mechanism for pedestrian individuals to be connected to a large piece of Investiture. But there are Splinters of Honor and Cultivation (and various mixtures of their Investiture), on Roshar, which tie themselves to someone’s soul. Spren, who bond with Radiants. There is precedence which I think shows that Radiants, suffused with Investiture and tightly bound with their spren, can remain as a Cognitive Shadow, joining the Heraldic Forces. But we also need to understand the totality of the requirements. What determines whether someone has a strong enough bond to remain, if their ties to the Investiture are sufficient to allow them to persist? Look back at the Vorin belief: only the best join the Heralds. They need to have fulfilled their Calling. I think this means that Radiants must have said all five Oaths; only then will the bond be strong enough to tie them permanently to the Cognitive Realm. There is more that can be drawn from Vorinism. Just like the Heraldic forces are so much more than soldiers, the Radiants aren’t all combat-focused orders. They all have a place in the war against the Void. The specific powers associated with the Heraldic forces above seem like Surges; the farmer is using Progression, and the soldier may be using Division. This makes it appear that the magics persist in the Rosharan afterlife; this is not what we see in Mistborn, but the piece of Investiture that allowed that character persist was not what gave him magic in the first place. In Warbreaker, they can use their Splinters to accomplish magic; their Divine Breaths appear to just be larger versions of the normal Investiture of that world. Radiants vs Surgebinders But if Vorinism got their concept of Callings from the Radiant version of Ideals, where did the Radiants get their doctrine from originally? Several characters, like Jasnah and Kaladin, insist that they are not Radiants, even though they are definitely pursuing the Ideals of those Orders. I think the attainment of the fifth Oath is a final qualification of Radiancy, when they become a true Knight Radiant, but any Surgebinder is limited by the Ideals of an Order. The difference between Radiants and Surgebinders is just that a Surgebinder hasn’t said all the oaths yet. But I don’t believe this has always been true: Quote But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws. The “precepts and laws” must be the Ideals; you cannot be a Surgebinder without following an Ideal, joining an Order. That much is plain. But examine the specific chronology: there were already Surgebinders for Ishar to threaten at the time he established the Orders, meaning that, at one point, it was possible to be a Surgebinder without first saying Oaths! I believe Nohadon lived in this time, during a Desolation where they fought thunderclasts, and not yet the Void-bound Listeners: Quote “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than an ordinary man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.” … “Their power… well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them. …” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given – whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond – needs to make us better.” I think this passage predates Ishar’s alignment of the Orders; I think that spren could bond whoever they felt attracted to, without the specifics that we see in modern Roshar. There are further elements of Radiance that are missing in this passage; Nohadon refers to himself as a Surgebinder (unless there is another explanation for his ‘divine gifts’), but he stands in a war zone without Shardplate. It is possible that Shardplate, Shardblades, squires, all the other trappings of the Knights, had not been laid out yet, and Nohadon merely bonded a spren and gained the ability to Surgebind. In fact, I don’t believe there is any fundamental difference between a bond between a Radiant and their spren, and what we’ve seen in Elantris with the seons: Quote Q: How important are Bonds like the Nahel Bond and a Seon bond in the Cosmere? A: I'd say very important. Q: Is this kind of bond relatively common or is what seons, spren, and night blood do little more rare among splinters. I'm specifically talking about the act of making bonds not a giving of magic powers really, that appearing to be function of Roshar. A: The bonding is basically the same mechanic, regardless of the world, just with different flavoring. Roshar isn't the only place where the bond gives powers; it's a matter of what's stuffed into the soul, and how. Source. Seons, Splinters of Devotion from Elantris, can grant powers if they go to Roshar. Nightblood, essentially an artificial Splinter of Endowment, appears to be bonding with Szeth. Splinters, regardless of the world they are from, can apparently bond with humans. I think that it’s a quirk of the planet and language that the Rosharans actually have a word for this – spren symbiosis is such a common thing on that planet, with greatshells, skyeels, and Listeners all forming bonds with spren, that they came up with a name for a bond between a splinter and a human. Other planets just call it a bond, because they don’t need to be any more specific, but I think they are all Nahel bonds. But there are extra things going on in Roshar. There is a popular theory that the bond is the Focus of Surgebinding, much like metals are in Mistborn. I like that idea; the kind of bond you have, the kind of spren you are joined with, determines what powers you get. But there is an additional restriction, one that Ishar imposed. He apparently had great power of the fundamental behavior of Rosharan magic, and he limited the spren of Honor and Cultivation so that they could only grant powers and progress their bond if their bondsmen met specific requirements: the advancement of Oaths related to the Heralds’ behaviors. This not only granted them the advancement of the bond with their spren and associated Surgebinding power, but presumably the other formalized benefits of their Order, like creation of Blade and Plate, and the ability to bond squires. By placing these limits on Surgebinders, he was able to restrict Nahel bonds so that they would not advance to fulfillment unless a Surgebinder behaved essentially like a Herald; nobody of questionable character would achieve a strong enough bond to remain as a Cognitive Shadow, and join the Heraldic Forces. Where are the Halls? So, I hope I have firmly shown why I believe the Radiants who have achieved the fifth Oath remain as Cognitive Shadows and continue the fight against Odium’s forces in the Cognitive Realm. But one question remains: where do they fight? Khriss notes that Braize may contain the Cognitive Shadows, but Braize is Damnation. The Heraldic Forces should be fighting to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, the place that the Voidbringers cast humanity out form in the first place; they should go to the Halls, not to Damnation. They certainly don’t remain in Roshar’s region of the Cognitive Realm; according to mythology, they are called elsewhere: Quote “A horn sounded in the air, crisp and clean. It was like the mythical horn that was said to guide the souls of the brave to heaven’s battlefield.” Were the Halls on Ashyn, the planet closest to the sun in the Rosharan system, which has suffered a cataclysm to rend the surface of the planet? Or was Braize the true Tranquiline Halls, captured and twisted by Odium’s forces to become Damnation? Here, I believe that the teachings of Vorinism are twice wrong. Not only do they misidentify who is fighting, but I think they are mistaken as to what the fight actually is. It is through no fault of their own: they were lied to by those who should be the most trustworthy: Quote The Desolations had happened during the near-mythical shadowdays, before real history began. Before mankind had defeated the Voidbringers and taken the war to heaven. Nothing, save the existence of the Almighty, should be assumed as axiomatic. But Vorin teachings fall apart when you remove a foundational concept and realize the truth: the Heralds are liars, and they did not defeat the Voidbringers. The Voidbringers aren’t in the Halls. They are in Braize, where they have always been, and the Radiants are partaking in the same age-old war that has gone on since the creation of the Oathpact. It is between Odium, trapped on Braize, and Honor’s forces on Roshar. Just to satisfy the curious readers, I do believe many historical elements of the Vorin mythology of their origin are true, but that several concepts have been conflated. There is the war by Cognitive Shadows, which takes place in the Cognitive Realm on Braize, known as Damnation. There is the origin of at least one branch of humanity, the Tranquiline Halls in the Physical Realm on Ashyn. And the final destination of the soul, the Beyond (which is itself conflated with the Spiritual Realm on occasion), where Odium’s influence prevents the normal passage of souls (as evidenced by those who sleep until the Halls are supposedly reclaimed). But the truly important conclusion is that the Heraldic Forces may not fight to reclaim the Halls, but instead reside in Damnation. The Wicked Thing of Eminence The Radiants abandoned their oaths at the Recreance because they uncovered something. A secret so powerful that it caused nine of the ten orders to Forswear their oaths, the tenth order remaining to join their Herald in exterminating other Surgebinders. Quote Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest. That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their Oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. … This act of great villainy went well beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they witdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership, but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. The Diagram commands to “hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. It may be needed to destroy the new Orders when they return.” What is this secret? A secret that would cause thousands of men and women to forsake their god and their Oaths would not remain a secret, even if most of the Radiants were killed soon after they forswore. I think the truth of the afterlife, that Radiants partake in a war beyond the grave, is truth that was discovered. The knowledge, once revealed to the Radiants, made its way into Vorinism and their concept of the afterlife. But the truth has again been lost of what the First Oath really means: LIFE BEFORE DEATH STRENGTH BEFORE WEAKNESS JOURNEY BEFORE DESTINATION As I have commented elsewhere, I find it very telling that the oath is not LIFE UNTIL DEATH. I do not believe Teft’s interpretation of the First Oath is accurate: it is tilted towards the Windrunners. He says a Radiant always protects life, but the Skybreakers currently seek to extinguish lives, and yet they live sufficiently according to the First Oath. Instead, here is what I believe to be the true meaning of the Oath: The LIFE of a Radiant is filled with STRENGTH as they progress along their JOURNEY. But it does not end, because in DEATH they go to Damnation, fighting in WEAKNESS at their final DESTINATION. The Radiants do not understand what they swear themselves to when they say the first Oath. They believe they commit to following ideals through their lives, without realizing that they have consigned themselves to eternal battle and torment, souls that will not slumber until Odium has been finally defeated. Which, with the abandonment of the Heralds and the death of Honor, may never happen. Such a deceitfully imposed requirement could surely be enough to cause the Lost Radiants to forswear, and abandon their Oaths. And I can easily believe that the Radiants of today will feel much the same way. Quote “If the afterlife really is a big war,” Kaladin said, “then I hope I end up in Damnation.” Be careful what you wish for. CODA: The True Nature of the Stormfather This is almost entirely unrelated to the conclusions I drew above, but the discovery was similar in method, and the as the citations below deal with the dead they could be considered relevant to the discussion above. I do not believe they concern Radiants, but I shall present them anyways, along with my conclusions. Three quotes guide a truly speculative interpretation. The first is the story of Fleet: Quote “So in that land of dirt and soil, our hero stopped the storm itself. And while the rain came down like tears, our Fleet refused to end this race. His body dead, but not his will, within those winds his soul did rise.” A Cognitive Shadow associated with the Storm. I find it interesting that the story does not mention the Stormfather; it does mention the God of Storms, which may be the Stormfather, or it may be Honor. The second was musings of Kaladin early in Words of Radiance: Quote “[Kaladin] was reminded again of the emptiness. The dead didn’t need to become Voidbringers to haunt this camp; the empty barracks did that.” This was a concept otherwise unseen, of Cognitive Shadows on Odium’s side. The last is from Rlain, speaking to Dalinar of the Parshendi gods: Quote “They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” The Unmade are Splinters of Odium. Why does he refer to them as such? Together, these three quotes paint another picture of the powerful dead. Not of the Lost Radiants, but of Cognitive Shadows who have become Vessels of Splinters. The Storm existed before the Fleet, who I think died and became the Stormfather. Voidspren are largely mindless; the minds of the Unmade, the most powerful of his spren, are drawn from men, Cognitive Shadows of ancient Voidbinders. Thus far, we have only known of Shards as having Vessels. But what if any sufficiently large piece of Investiture could support a human mind holding it? Not just a bond, not just a Sliver of Infinity, but a full Vessel inhabiting the Splinter, with the power of that Splinter guiding the actions of the Vessel? Fleet must now run with the storm forevermore and channel Investiture, and those who Unmade themselves now forever work as Odium’s generals. An admittedly fantastic interpretation. But nonetheless one that encompasses several troublesome quotations. 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 Well said, this does seem to be the plausible explanation for the recreance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 As usual, you put things together spectacularly. I agree with everything. Additionally (and I believe @Extesian addressed this in a recent theory of his.) I think that Honor originally resided on Braize and was forced to come to Roshar were the desolations continued. In tWoK there is a discussion between Navani and Dalinar with Renarin present, when they discuss what the desolations were (this is the same scene that has the origin story of the Makabaki) and Navani says something along the lines of "Wars. Terrible wars. A continuation of the fighting that drove mankind - and the Heralds - from the Tranquiline Halls." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatling Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 3 hours ago, Pagerunner said: Which then devolved into just lighting them on fire, because people are perpetually unimaginative in all areas save methods of destruction. Yes! Reading this post is like panning for gold, you just have to find the good parts among so... many... words... no disrespect, I think I'm going to have to reread this in the morning, but I picked this out of it, and it's just so accurate. I'm thinking I'll take it in sections, maybe that's the right strategy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) Nice write-up as always @Pagerunner. This is essentially what I was trying to do in my previous, (inelegant theory) on this stuff – to flesh out Feather’s original idea. The reason my ‘theory’ turned so weird was that there were a few things I struggled to reconcile, and got caught up on them, and tried to do a realmatic explanation. Mine also mainly relied on WoBs, whereas yours mainly relies on textual references. So all in all, far better job than I did, very elegant. Main questions for me are: Reconciling Desolations being caused by the existence of the Heralds on Roshar. Realmatically, and with respect to your theory, how does that fit in? Nale’s statement that Quote “If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the Oaths. Without Honor to Regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation, and even a small chance that the world will be destroyed is a risk that we cannot take.” Sure, he’s mad and Ishar was wrong (it seems), but I still figure Nale must have enough sound realmatic knowledge for there to be some truth in that explanation. If so, any idea how to reconcile that or at least explain that? A big issue for me is the Recreance. I could well be wrong, and many others have suggested that being forced to fight on Braize as Cognitive Shadows is the reason for it, but I can’t believe it. I can’t believe that every last Radiant would be so cowardly as to break their oaths and condemn their spren to eternal agony just out of fear for their own suffering. For me, the explanation must be that it was better for Roshar that they are no longer Radiants, not that it is better for them. More than that, if they already have said the 5 oaths and are sufficiently invested, why would breaking their oaths stop that destiny? With a couple of these questions it's really just me wanting to understand why and how Heralds come to Roshar and Radiants go to Braize. But those questions notwithstanding (and they may be outside the scope of what you’ve done – if I’d left them outside the scope I may have had a workable theory!), I agree with almost everything you’ve said, including several new things I hadn’t considered before. Your reading of the first ideal is intriguing and I’m quite fond of it. I like your mention of Fleet and your explanation of bonding sentient splinters. I like your scene-setting with in-world references. I agree with you on glyphwards. All good food for thought. Cheers. Edited August 15, 2017 by Extesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passion Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 I agree strongly with extesion that the recreance must be something that they decided made it better for roshar to gave no radients Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) A lot of points that I agree with wholeheartedly, and a lot that I have to think about some more. I really like the part about glyphwards, Khriss mentioned in the AU essay that fire behaves unusually because of the high-oxygen atmosphere. Maybe there is a realmatic significance as well. On creation of CS because of the Nahel bond, I like the idea and I agree something is going on, but how would this work for the spren? Returned give up their splinter when they heal someone, the investiture is presumably consumed so the Returned can no longer exist in the PR. A certain someone probably absorbed a tiny fraction of the Well. What happens to the spren if they are the cause of the creation of Radiant CS? These are self aware beings with thoughts and feelings afterall. Would it work like it does with the Stormfather, where the Shadow merges with the investiture of the spren? Does the spren sacrifice its investiture to ensure the Radiant is anchored in the CR? We know that a non Radiant surgebinder's death is a traumatic experience for the spren, but the spren is able to bond again. If a full Knight Radiant were to die, would the spren would go with the CR aspect of the Knight, anchor it somehow but survive? I do think the afterlife is messed up and the souls can't move on, but I'm not convinced that it's the spren that makes the Knight into a Shadow. What if it's the prolonged use of investiture combined with a powerful Connection to a Cognitive entity? The amounts of Stormlight we see Kaladin channel are not quite on the level of the Mists but as close as a regular individual is going to get. We know that Honorblades are dangerous because they use vast quantities of Stormlight inefficiently. The Nahel bond is supposed to protect the Radiant from those negative effects, but what if by doing so their soul is slowly permeated by investiture, transforming them into a Shadow over time? Maybe using an Honorblade does the same thing, but more quickly and more violently. The Heralds are already CS, maybe that was how they were made in the first place, and the spren accidentally copied that exact process. Edited August 16, 2017 by Ciridae Sorry, thought this was cosmere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overlord Jebus Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 14 minutes ago, Ciridae said: but how would this work for the spren? Building on Pagerunners point on CS Vessels, it may be that full Radiants become a Vessel for their own Spren, combining together into some sort of single CS that has near unlimited access to their Surges. Quote A farmer would be able to wave his hand and create great fields of spiritual crops. A spearman would be a great warrior, able to cause thunder with his shield and lightning with his spear Whether the Spren would be consumed in this process or just become a voice in their head or something, I can't say. This is actually an interesting thought, have we ever seen two minds/souls/beings inhabit a single body? If your Fleet theory is right, is it Fleet being guided by a splinter of Honor (Like a standard Vessel and Shard) or were these two separate beings that fused together over time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 Eh. Spren do not remain bonded after their Radiant dies. Therefore there is nothing Radiants remaind bound to. Quote if he dies, does that affect the spren? Brandon Sanderson Dying, as long as the oaths are not broken, does not affect the spren in a very terrible way. There are effects.source Quote Question After a spren has been bonded, what happens if the person it's bonded with dies? Brandon Sanderson It is an emotional event for the spren, but not a damaging one. As long as their oaths are unbroken. Argent Kind of like if a close friend dies? Brandon Sanderson Maybe a little more personal than that.source If the Radiants after death remained instead of moving Beyond they would know it very soon: after all, there are three orders capable of seeing into Shadesmar (and one of them can step fully into it). The Cognitive Shadows on Braize are probably Heralds. Or something else. Khriss is just theorizing: Quote I believe it's possible some of these are actually Cognitive Shadows but research here is difficult and dangerous, so I will hold back on theorizing for the moment. I am very much against that whole thing about Ishar making Oaths. It makes zero sense and that epigraph is talking about something else entirely: 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws. is him just making organization. No more rogue Surgebinders scattered around the globe. Now we're making you into Orders with hierarchy so that you could operate more efficiently (many great warriors scattered around is nothing to be afraid of; but a military force? That's something very effective, as Romans and their legions taught us). Furthermore they agreed to be bound by external laws - so that they are not above the laws of other kingdoms. 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: In fact, I don’t believe there is any fundamental difference between a bond between a Radiant and their spren, and what we’ve seen in Elantris with the seons: Quote Q: How important are Bonds like the Nahel Bond and a Seon bond in the Cosmere? A: I'd say very important. Q: Is this kind of bond relatively common or is what seons, spren, and night blood do little more rare among splinters. I'm specifically talking about the act of making bonds not a giving of magic powers really, that appearing to be function of Roshar. A: The bonding is basically the same mechanic, regardless of the world, just with different flavoring. Roshar isn't the only place where the bond gives powers; it's a matter of what's stuffed into the soul, and how. Source. Seons, Splinters of Devotion from Elantris, can grant powers if they go to Roshar. those bolded sentences mean very different things. The thing is, the Radiant spren are a mixture of Honor (oaths/bonds) and Cultivation (symbiosis). Therefore bonding such entity has different effects than bonding a splinter of Devotion or Endowment. And that's why Rosharan splinters do grant powers while others, like Seons, do not. Unless brought to Roshar and some tempering with the magic. At this point I want to remind that the "Nightblood grants Surges" thing is just a theory. For another place with bonds granting the powers look at First of the Sun. Therefore I find all of this very unlikely. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted August 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Oversleep said: Spren do not remain bonded after their Radiant dies. Therefore there is nothing Radiants remaind bound to. Take a close look at the quotes you provided. Neither says that the bond ends with the Radiant's death, just that the the spren is not damaged (read: death of the spren, like a broken Oath creating a Shardblade). 1 hour ago, Oversleep said: If the Radiants after death remained instead of moving Beyond they would know it very soon: after all, there are three orders capable of seeing into Shadesmar (and one of them can step fully into it). The Cognitive Shadows on Braize are probably Heralds. Or something else. Khriss is just theorizing: The Radiants were active in the Rosharan Cognitive Realm, but I do not believe they went to Braize's Cognitive Realm, which is a dangerous place to be. If Radiant Shades are indeed called Braize (see the trumpet quote and explanation above), then I think it would be possible for the Radiants to be unaware of their fates. Khriss cannot be referring to the Heralds, since there was only one of them on Braize at the time the essays were written. If there are not Cognitive Shadows of some kind on Braize, then from a metatextual perspective the line is misdirection on Brandon's part. Which is possible, but it's a misdirection I would be content to fooled by. Assuming that there are indeed Cognitive Shadows on Braize, I have no other candidates for these Shadows (other than the Shades already referenced multiple times in the text). 1 hour ago, Oversleep said: I am very much against that whole thing about Ishar making Oaths. It makes zero sense and that epigraph is talking about something else entirely: is him just making organization. No more rogue Surgebinders scattered around the globe. Now we're making you into Orders with hierarchy so that you could operate more efficiently (many great warriors scattered around is nothing to be afraid of; but a military force? That's something very effective, as Romans and their legions taught us). Furthermore they agreed to be bound by external laws - so that they are not above the laws of other kingdoms. There's not much I can say to this point, since neither of our interpretations are inconsistent with the text. But the explanation that the Radiants were just organized Surgebinders has never sat well with me, because not all Radiant orders were all that organized. (I believe the Willshapers were the given example of individualistic Radiants.) I think there are aspects of Radiance that are beyond just Surgebinding (Shardplate being the most obvious), which is why I've begun to look at this quote differently. 1 hour ago, Oversleep said: those bolded sentences mean very different things. The thing is, the Radiant spren are a mixture of Honor (oaths/bonds) and Cultivation (symbiosis). Therefore bonding such entity has different effects than bonding a splinter of Devotion or Endowment. And that's why Rosharan splinters do grant powers while others, like Seons, do not. Unless brought to Roshar and some tempering with the magic. At this point I want to remind that the "Nightblood grants Surges" thing is just a theory. For another place with bonds granting the powers look at First of the Sun. Nightblood granting powers is a theory. Seons, on the other hand, are confirmed: Quote Outis If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond? Brandon Sanderson It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers. Source. They grant different powers, but they do grant powers. (I can see ways to interpret the final phrase 'the same power' to mean that they don't grant powers on Roshar, but then I don't know what it would mean to be 'treated the exact same way,' so I say that the phrase needs to be understood as "they grant different powers." As an aside, I do not believe the First of the Sun magic operates using bonds. Aviar like Kokerlii create a 'coppercloud' (or something similar) that protect multiple people, and Sak gives visions to Vathi on Dusk's command after landing on her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aemetha Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 The part I don't get is this: If the theory is that Ishar implemented the oaths to restrain the radiants, why do spren die when radiants break the oaths? This theory suggests that the oaths were an arrangement between the heralds and radiants, while the evidence we see in world is that the oaths are a relationship between radiants and spren. We haven't seen anything that suggests the heralds have any power over spren. If the suggestion is that Ishar fundamentally added those consequences, well, that would be a level of power we haven't seen from any non-shard. Mistborn spoiler Spoiler Even TLR didn't (or couldn't) change the magic system. Even Harmony only made very minor changes to the magic system that may not have even been purposefully intended. There is also the issue of the exact wording of the oaths not mattering and being an outgrowing of the Spren. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1158#25 Quote BLIGHTSONG Were the oaths of the Knights radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally. BRANDON SANDERSON *apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example to Knights Radiant in the same order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so. So if the exact words don't matter but the ideas do, that makes it difficult to trick radiants into making oaths they don't understand. It's not enough for the oaths to just be spoken, they have to also communicate the concept. None of the radiants would have communicated a commitment to eternal damnation, so the oaths wouldn't be binding. Spren are about ideas and thoughts being of the cognitive realm, the words are just a vehicle for communicating it. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1083#5 Quote JEREMY Is the order of the Ideals fixed? E.g. does Kaladin have to say the Windrunner Ideals in a specific order, or are they situation-specific? BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED) Yes, the sequence is fixed. The oaths for each order are essentially a progression of understanding of the kind of person that each Order of Knights Radiant is trying to produce. The specific wording of each Ideal is not fixed, but the overall idea of each Ideal, and the order in which they are spoken, is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 @aemetha everything you've just said is true. The one place that I felt unsure on this is the addition of the Oaths, but I didn't have the words to express it and @Oversleep did a pretty good job of that. 4 minutes ago, aemetha said: So if the exact words don't matter but the ideas do, that makes it difficult to trick radiants into making oaths they don't understand. It's not enough for the oaths to just be spoken, they have to also communicate the concept. None of the radiants would have communicated a commitment to eternal damnation, so the oaths wouldn't be binding. Spren are about ideas and thoughts being of the cognitive realm, the words are just a vehicle for communicating it. What you say here does not apply to the first oath. That ideal is the same across the board. The Spren bonded humans in imitation of the Honorblades, which were a part of the Oathpact. All of the Oaths save that one are individualized and rely on the intent of the speaker. We've already seen Radiants question the meaning of the first oath after they've said it. The first oath is the key here, and they could very well be entering into something they don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: Take a close look at the quotes you provided. Neither says that the bond ends with the Radiant's death, just that the the spren is not damaged (read: death of the spren, like a broken Oath creating a Shardblade). I'll look if we have any WoB on that but please take a look at Stormfather. If spren merged with their Radiants he would be gone by now, even if you pull "he's a big spren and they could just take pieces". There were multiple Bondsmiths in history. 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: The Radiants were active in the Rosharan Cognitive Realm, but I do not believe they went to Braize's Cognitive Realm, which is a dangerous place to be. If Radiant Shades are indeed called Braize (see the trumpet quote and explanation above), then I think it would be possible for the Radiants to be unaware of their fates. I mean, they would know how death normally looks like (stretching into Beyond) and that it doesn't happen with Radiants. 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: Khriss cannot be referring to the Heralds, since there was only one of them on Braize at the time the essays were written. If there are not Cognitive Shadows of some kind on Braize, then from a metatextual perspective the line is misdirection on Brandon's part. Which is possible, but it's a misdirection I would be content to fooled by. Assuming that there are indeed Cognitive Shadows on Braize, I have no other candidates for these Shadows (other than the Shades already referenced multiple times in the text). We're latching too much one a single sentence of theorizing Khriss does. Even when she states things she have been wrong before and here she's just theorizing (which is a thing scholars do). 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: There's not much I can say to this point, since neither of our interpretations are inconsistent with the text. But the explanation that the Radiants were just organized Surgebinders has never sat well with me, because not all Radiant orders were all that organized. (I believe the Willshapers were the given example of individualistic Radiants.) And the explanation that a human could just rewrite how magic works when even Shards have limited ability to make changes in their magic (and that was a planet which was made by them and they had more leeway) has never made any sense to me. (Mistborn Era Two) Spoiler Even Harmony with all his power on an engineered world could not get rid of Snapping. He managed to lower the threshold but not get rid of it. I just don't buy that anyone - not even Honor and Cultivation themselves - could make such big changes in the magic. And one can be individualistic and still take orders. They're not anarchists. 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: I think there are aspects of Radiance that are beyond just Surgebinding (Shardplate being the most obvious), which is why I've begun to look at this quote differently. What? What is "obvious" about Shardplate? What are you talking about? 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: Seons, on the other hand, are confirmed That WoB has been interpreted in a million different ways and has been a source of many big arguments. I refuse to simply go with the "seons grant powers on Roshar" thing, I have been burned by that before. 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: As an aside, I do not believe the First of the Sun magic operates using bonds. Don't believe then. Check the postscriptum in Arcanum Unbounded. When working on First of the Sun Brandon has been interested by "a symbiosis (of new kind) for Investiture". Yep. Symbiosis. Just like Roshar. Edited August 15, 2017 by Oversleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) Mhm @Oversleep I don’t think there’s a real suggestion that a Herald rewrote the magic system. The magic system is based on Honor. Honor is (probably) based on basically doing what you’ll say you’ll do, at the very least. I think Ishar basically got the spren and the Radiants (or one, doesn’t really matter) to agree to be bound, and that agreement was then magically enforced. This is also consistent with the spren referring to prohibitions on giving proto-Radiants too much information (e.g. just telling them the Oaths, or telling them they can be a Shardblade). It’s not changing the system. It’s creating binding oaths within the system. Nale says that without Honor around to regulate the Oaths, men could discover the greater power of them. Whether or not he’s right, maybe this is evidence for this form of magically enforced bond. Tanavast was able to actually enforce the agreement pushed by Ishar. The worry is that now Tanavast is gone, and no intelligence is controlling Honor, those Oaths are no longer magically enforced. On this one, I’ve got @Pagerunner's back. It may be wrong but I think it’s far more plausible than some are suggesting. Edit - one addition though. I don't agree necessarily that just saying the 5 oaths is what makes a Radiant a Cognitive Shadow after death. I don't believe the bond stays with the Radiant, I don't think it matters. I think it's a simple matter of how much kinetic investiture they use. A full Radiant doing their thing for years will be so invested, not from the bond, but from the kinetic investiture flowing through them, that, possibly combined with some additional mechanism that then prevents them from going to the Beyond, they become Cognitive Shadows. Edited August 15, 2017 by Extesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aemetha Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 @Calderis I can follow that part about the first oath originating from the imitation of the spren bond. How is the oath enforced though? Spren won't hold them to an oath they didn't understand because its not the idea they communicated. Honor can't enforce it, he's dead. The heralds have no interest in enforcing it. It's not really consistent with the shardic intent of cultivation. Odium is trapped. I don't see how a residual effect of Honor could enforce it because such things rely on intentions. Now admittedly many of these arguments are new to Roshar since the last desolation, but a part of this discussion is about the broader implications for the future of the radiants. What need they fear about a misleading oath that can no longer be enforced? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 1 minute ago, aemetha said: @Calderis I can follow that part about the first oath originating from the imitation of the spren bond. How is the oath enforced though? Spren won't hold them to an oath they didn't understand because its not the idea they communicated. Honor can't enforce it, he's dead. The heralds have no interest in enforcing it. It's not really consistent with the shardic intent of cultivation. Odium is trapped. I don't see how a residual effect of Honor could enforce it because such things rely on intentions. Now admittedly many of these arguments are new to Roshar since the last desolation, but a part of this discussion is about the broader implications for the future of the radiants. What need they fear about a misleading oath that can no longer be enforced? I don't think it needs a Shard to enforce it. I think by mimicking the Honorblades in creating the bond the enforcement is an inherent part of the system. The Nahel bond itself is established with the first oath. Advancement within the order requires intent, and draws a Radiant deeper in, but the first oath plants the seed within the soul that the all consecutive oaths serve to nurture. If the Honorblades, and consequently the Oathpact, are the basis of the Nahel bond, the bond itself requires adherence to the first oath. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 I have a question about whether or not it's likely that there used to be a multitude of Radiants surviving in the Cognitive Realm before the Recreance without someone like Khriss knowing about it. I'm not sure exactly where White Sand is on the timeline, I just know it happens early on. If Khriss was around at Silverlight studying the Cognitive Realm before the Recreance, isn't it likely she would have known about the presence of a bunch of Radiants' Cognitive Shadows around Roshar? I feel like that would have been a decently important piece of information to mention in her AU essay on the Rosharian system. I mean there's the possibility nothing like that has been mentioned simply for spoiler purposes. I'm just spitballing about how plausible a large presence of Radiants fighting a war in the Cognitive Realm really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Isn't the point that the shades of the Radiants are Cognitive Shadows that fight in the Physical Realm of Braize? I'm not sure why anyone would know about that from the Cognitive Realm of Roshar. I'm not saying I'm sold on this, but just that these objections to noone knowing sure sure wouldn't apply without someone really getting to know Braize, which sounds like a dangerous prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted August 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 16 hours ago, Extesian said: Reconciling Desolations being caused by the existence of the Heralds on Roshar. Realmatically, and with respect to your theory, how does that fit in? Nale’s statement that Sure, he’s mad and Ishar was wrong (it seems), but I still figure Nale must have enough sound realmatic knowledge for there to be some truth in that explanation. If so, any idea how to reconcile that or at least explain that? I do not think Ishar was merely wrong - I think he was lying. I don't think the Radiants' return causes desolations, I think Ishar's madness is causing him to 'make good' on his threat to destroy the Orders, though deceiving Nale and the Skybreakers. 16 hours ago, Extesian said: A big issue for me is the Recreance. I could well be wrong, and many others have suggested that being forced to fight on Braize as Cognitive Shadows is the reason for it, but I can’t believe it. I can’t believe that every last Radiant would be so cowardly as to break their oaths and condemn their spren to eternal agony just out of fear for their own suffering. For me, the explanation must be that it was better for Roshar that they are no longer Radiants, not that it is better for them. More than that, if they already have said the 5 oaths and are sufficiently invested, why would breaking their oaths stop that destiny? With a couple of these questions it's really just me wanting to understand why and how Heralds come to Roshar and Radiants go to Braize. The diagram's reference to the 'secret that broke the Knights Radiant' makes me think the betrayal was indeed genuine, that the secret was so powerful it broke the Radiants wills, and they broke their Oaths. For Cognitive Shadows, the ones on Nalthis need to remain connected to their initial source of Investiture (giving up the Divine Breath kills them), while in the example seen on Scadrial the Shadow persisted after the initial Investiture had disappeared. I think Radiant Shades are more like the former; if they do not have that bond at the moment of death, they will not persist as Radiants. 13 hours ago, Ciridae said: On creation of CS because of the Nahel bond, I like the idea and I agree something is going on, but how would this work for the spren? Returned give up their splinter when they heal someone, the investiture is presumably consumed so the Returned can no longer exist in the PR. What happens to the spren if they are the cause of the creation of Radiant CS? These are self aware beings with thoughts and feelings afterall. Would it work like it does with the Stormfather, where the Shadow merges with the investiture of the spren? Does the spren sacrifice its investiture to ensure the Radiant is anchored in the CR? We know that a non Radiant surgebinder's death is a traumatic experience for the spren, but the spren is able to bond again. If a full Knight Radiant were to die, would the spren would go with the CR aspect of the Knight, anchor it somehow but survive? I do think the afterlife is messed up and the souls can't move on, but I'm not convinced that it's the spren that makes the Knight into a Shadow. Bonds are not limited by geography; they occur in the Spiritual Realm. Seons in Elantris can travel away from who they are bonded to; I believe the spren can remain on Roshar and still be connected Spiritually to the Radiant over on Braize. The connection between Honor's Cognitive Shadow and the Stormfather is unique: Tanavast persisted because he was a Sliver, and the Stormfather already existed, and the two merged. I strenuously disagree with the merger of an individual and a piece of Investiture to create a Cognitive Shadow, instead holding the interpretation that the Investiture acts as an anchor, mainly because of what we saw in Mistborn. 12 hours ago, overlordjebus said: This is actually an interesting thought, have we ever seen two minds/souls/beings inhabit a single body? If your Fleet theory is right, is it Fleet being guided by a splinter of Honor (Like a standard Vessel and Shard) or were these two separate beings that fused together over time? I don't think the Stormfather existed before Fleet. I think the Storm was a Splinter, plenty of Investiture, but no mind guiding it. Fleet, after his death, Ascended to that Splinter, becoming the Stormfather. The only mind in there is Fleet's. (Well, until he absorbed Tanavast.) 1 hour ago, aemetha said: If the theory is that Ishar implemented the oaths to restrain the radiants, why do spren die when radiants break the oaths? This theory suggests that the oaths were an arrangement between the heralds and radiants, while the evidence we see in world is that the oaths are a relationship between radiants and spren. We haven't seen anything that suggests the heralds have any power over spren. If the suggestion is that Ishar fundamentally added those consequences, well, that would be a level of power we haven't seen from any non-shard. I say the Oaths are between a Radiant and a Spren, but with Ishar acting as the 'lawyer' who has set up the contract. The only other place I see a hint of this sort of power comes in the epigraph where it talks about Melishi (who I think is Mel'Ishi, or Ishar) coming up with a plan to use the Bondsmith's unique abilities to destroy the Voidbringers. I don't think this is fighting - I think this is being able to fundamentally alter the protocol of bonding, preventing Listeners from bonding spren at all and trapping them in slaveform. 1 hour ago, aemetha said: There is also the issue of the exact wording of the oaths not mattering and being an outgrowing of the Spren. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1158#25 So if the exact words don't matter but the ideas do, that makes it difficult to trick radiants into making oaths they don't understand. It's not enough for the oaths to just be spoken, they have to also communicate the concept. None of the radiants would have communicated a commitment to eternal damnation, so the oaths wouldn't be binding. Spren are about ideas and thoughts being of the cognitive realm, the words are just a vehicle for communicating it. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1083#5 I think, as Calderis said, the First Oath is fundamentally different than the other four Oaths. Its wording is particular and well-known: the other four Oaths are secrets intuited by the Radiants as they developed the relationship with their spren (which is why the Oaths vary from Order to Order, because the spren are different for each Order). It is an important part of my interpretation, but one that I had neglected to spell out explicitly in my original post. 1 hour ago, Oversleep said: I'll look if we have any WoB on that but please take a look at Stormfather. If spren merged with their Radiants he would be gone by now, even if you pull "he's a big spren and they could just take pieces". There were multiple Bondsmiths in history. I addressed a similar concern above; I do not believe that a Cognitive Shadow is a piece of Investiture merged with an individual, but an individual anchored by Investiture. Stormfather, and other spren like Syl who have bonded Radiants in the past, can serve as anchors to more than one soul over the course of time. 1 hour ago, Oversleep said: I mean, they would know how death normally looks like (stretching into Beyond) and that it doesn't happen with Radiants. I'm not sure they would. When Lift (who is able to see somewhat into the Cognitive Realm) watches Nalan kill a girl in Edgedancer, Lift sees something very reminiscent of Szeth's afterimages: Quote For a moment it seemed to be working. She saw something, a luminescence in the shape of a figure. It vibrated around the corpse, quivering. Then it puffed away, and the body remained on the ground, immobile, eyes burned. It appears to be her soul, which is there for a moment, and then disappears. Not unlike what a Radiants might do if they were called to Braize, or something shown in Bands of Mourning: Spoiler While speaking with Harmony, Wax initially appears in the misty Scadrian Cognitive Realm, but then there is a "blurring," and he and Harmony are speaking somewhere else. It may be a teleportation of sorts, Harmony moving Wax's soul somewhere else to create the representation of the world and the red cloud. I'm not sure everyone can see the pull of the Beyond, unless maybe they are experiencing it themselves. We only have one extended Point of View of the Cognitive Realm, and I'm not sure that experience is necessarily indicative of the general experience. I'm also confused about why people can only see some things when they enter to Soulcast: Jasnah didn't know what fearspren looked like on the other side (the grinders), but there were fearspren when she executed the muggers in Kharbranth, so why didn't she see grinders then? All that to say, I don't think we have the workings of the Cognitive Realm anywhere close to figured out. It's possible that it's as simple as 'everyone sees the same thing while they're there.' But I don't think we've seen enough of it yet to definitively say what Radiants would and would not have seen. 2 hours ago, Oversleep said: And the explanation that a human could just rewrite how magic works when even Shards have limited ability to make changes in their magic (and that was a planet which was made by them and they had more leeway) has never made any sense to me. (Mistborn Era Two) Reveal hidden contents Even Harmony with all his power on an engineered world could not get rid of Snapping. He managed to lower the threshold but not get rid of it. I just don't buy that anyone - not even Honor and Cultivation themselves - could make such big changes in the magic. Not just any human - a Bondsmith, or the Herald who served as a template for the Bondsmiths. Look at names of the other Orders: Windrunners Run in the Wind. Lightweavers can Weave Light. If anyone would have the ability to restrict bonds, it would be the Bondsmiths. I don't believe an increase in bonding requirements would be that different than the Mistborn example you stated, just in reverse. The Surges haven't changed, the Initiation of attracting a spren hasn't become something different. It has just made it more difficult to occur. 2 hours ago, Oversleep said: What? What is "obvious" about Shardplate? What are you talking about? Just that Shardplate is not a Surge. The historical pre-Radiants were Surgebinders: they had the ability to control the ten fundamental forces, as perceived by Rosharans. But did they have Plate? Did they have squires? There needs to be a separate mechanism for these parts of Radiancy that are not Surgebinding - when was it established? Don't get too hung up on this idea - they are questions that pointed me in the direction of intervention in the magical structure of the Radiants, not assertions that they are the only possible explanation. 2 hours ago, Oversleep said: Don't believe then. Check the postscriptum in Arcanum Unbounded. When working on First of the Sun Brandon has been interested by "a symbiosis (of new kind) for Investiture". Yep. Symbiosis. Just like Roshar. Quote Our brainstorming session on air wasn't specifically for a Cosmere story, but as I worked on the outline, I was intrigued by the idea of using symbiosis (in a new way) for a Cosmere Investiture. Yes, there is a symbiosis in Sixth of the Dusk, but it is unlike Roshar's: Spoiler A physical symbiosis between a bird, and a grub that has consumed liquid Investiture from the Shardpool there. There is no interaction with a Splinter, the way it occurs on Roshar. There's a symbiosis between bird and grub, but there cannot be a bond between them like a seon bond, because both of them are physical creatures. The word is the same, but the Realmatics of each situation are very different. 1 hour ago, aemetha said: I can follow that part about the first oath originating from the imitation of the spren bond. How is the oath enforced though? Spren won't hold them to an oath they didn't understand because its not the idea they communicated. Honor can't enforce it, he's dead. The heralds have no interest in enforcing it. It's not really consistent with the shardic intent of cultivation. Odium is trapped. I don't see how a residual effect of Honor could enforce it because such things rely on intentions. Now admittedly many of these arguments are new to Roshar since the last desolation, but a part of this discussion is about the broader implications for the future of the radiants. What need they fear about a misleading oath that can no longer be enforced? Think of an oath as a contract. Once the terms are broken, the contract is void. We see this happen exactly in Words of Radiance: Kaladin reneges on his vow to protect by promising to help kill Elhokar, so his bond with Syl is broken. It is something inherent to the bond itself; it doesn't mean that "Honor will break your bond with your spren if you go back on your word," your continued upholding of the Oath is a requirement for the bond to continue in the first place. So no enforcement required. 24 minutes ago, Andy92 said: I have a question about whether or not it's likely that there used to be a multitude of Radiants surviving in the Cognitive Realm before the Recreance without someone like Khriss knowing about it. I'm not sure exactly where White Sand is on the timeline, I just know it happens early on. If Khriss was around at Silverlight studying the Cognitive Realm before the Recreance, isn't it likely she would have known about the presence of a bunch of Radiants' Cognitive Shadows around Roshar? I feel like that would have been a decently important piece of information to mention in her AU essay on the Rosharian system. I mean there's the possibility nothing like that has been mentioned simply for spoiler purposes. I'm just spitballing about how plausible a large presence of Radiants fighting a war in the Cognitive Realm really is. She says to avoid Braize, which is where I think the Radiant Shades actually are. Metatextually, Khriss probably does know many things which would be drastic revelations for future stories for Mistborn, Stormlight, Elantris, and the like. But Brandon will carefully write the essays to preserve those mysteries. She does actually mention the possible presence of Cognitive Shadows on Braize, but doesn't explain at all why she thinks they are Cognitive Shadows, so there are pieces of information that Brandon is keeping hidden. Excellent points all around. But a word of caution, I did intentionally post this in the Stormlight subforum, not Cosmere Theories. I have linked to this thread from other sundry corners of the internet and indicated that it only contains Stormlight spoilers, so let's be sure to hide any specific plot points from other cosmere stories. (Specifically, @Ciridae, you probably want to avoid using a particular name out in the open.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 13 minutes ago, Pagerunner said: I'm not sure everyone can see the pull of the Beyond, unless maybe they are experiencing it themselves. We only have one extended Point of View of the Cognitive Realm, and I'm not sure that experience is necessarily indicative of the general experience. I'm also confused about why people can only see some things when they enter to Soulcast: Jasnah didn't know what fearspren looked like on the other side (the grinders), but there were fearspren when she executed the muggers in Kharbranth, so why didn't she see grinders then? I think that the example of the grinders is an oversight due to the Jasnah PoV excerpt we have being Non-Canon (at least I thought so). Lift is partially in the Cognitive Realm and can't see more than an after image with Szeth, whose soul is imperfectly attached to his physical body. In the case of the girl though, she doesn't see the soul between the point that the girl dies, and the quote you have where she attempts to heal her. If she had been fully in the Cognitive realm, like an Elsecaller or Willshaper can achieve via Transportation, she should have been able to see the Cognitive aspect arise and stretch away. Being partially there, like Lift or a soulcasting may not be enough, but we know that Elsecallers can definitely enter fully so at least one order should have at some point witnessed a Radiants death being different than a normal person, unless something is interfering with all deaths on Roshar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 16 minutes ago, Pagerunner said: Bonds are not limited by geography; they occur in the Spiritual Realm. Seons in Elantris can travel away from who they are bonded to; I believe the spren can remain on Roshar and still be connected Spiritually to the Radiant over on Braize. The connection between Honor's Cognitive Shadow and the Stormfather is unique: Tanavast persisted because he was a Sliver, and the Stormfather already existed, and the two merged. Nope. They are limited by distance. Quote Question Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather wont be around all the time... Brandon Sanderson Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally youre gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honors cognitive shadow, which means hes got a connection to a lot of different things, so hes not bound by a lot of the rules that others are. source Also: 19 minutes ago, Pagerunner said: I strenuously disagree with the merger of an individual and a piece of Investiture to create a Cognitive Shadow, instead holding the interpretation that the Investiture acts as an anchor, mainly because of what we saw in Mistborn. Brandon has refered to Cognitive Shadows as beings of pure Investiture or talked about existing through Investiture and things like that. You can still disagree of course but I'll take Brandon's word on that one 22 minutes ago, Pagerunner said: Not just any human - a Bondsmith, or the Herald who served as a template for the Bondsmiths. Look at names of the other Orders: Windrunners Run in the Wind. Lightweavers can Weave Light. If anyone would have the ability to restrict bonds, it would be the Bondsmiths. I don't believe an increase in bonding requirements would be that different than the Mistborn example you stated, just in reverse. The Surges haven't changed, the Initiation of attracting a spren hasn't become something different. It has just made it more difficult to occur. Willshapers shape will, Stonewardens keep watch of rocks, Edgedancers dance on the edges... the names are poetic, Bondsmiths unite and bring people together, one of their Surges makes things stick to each other. I think you're reading a bit too much into those names. Still, I don't believe a Shard could make such a major change to the magic system (we'll have to disagree on whether it's big change or not but it's not me who is arguing those Oaths condemn everyone to eternal suffering...) on a world they did not create, much less a human, no matter how experienced and special he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Pagerunner said: She says to avoid Braize, which is where I think the Radiant Shades actually are. Metatextually, Khriss probably does know many things which would be drastic revelations for future stories for Mistborn, Stormlight, Elantris, and the like. But Brandon will carefully write the essays to preserve those mysteries. She does actually mention the possible presence of Cognitive Shadows on Braize, but doesn't explain at all why she thinks they are Cognitive Shadows, so there are pieces of information that Brandon is keeping hidden. I got my copy of AU out and I see what you mean. It's pretty well a definite that Braize has Splinters, and she has a hunch some of them are really Cognitive Shadows. So I guess her research is simply limited due to the danger of Braize in general. I would be interested in knowing the timeline of when these essays were written in comparison to the stories in the books. That answer might be out there somewhere, but I'm not aware off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted August 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Andy92 said: I got my copy of AU out and I see what you mean. It's pretty well a definite that Braize has Splinters, and she has a hunch some of them are really Cognitive Shadows. So I guess her research is simply limited due to the danger of Braize in general. I would be interested in knowing the timeline of when these essays were written in comparison to the stories in the books. That answer might be out there somewhere, but I'm not aware off the top of my head. The Scadrian essay gives a clue. Spoiler The current orbit is the restores one, which means the essays are after Hero of Ages. That is around 300 years before Way of Kings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: I believe the spren can remain on Roshar and still be connected Spiritually to the Radiant over on Braize. The connection between Honor's Cognitive Shadow and the Stormfather is unique: Tanavast persisted because he was a Sliver, and the Stormfather already existed, and the two merged. I strenuously disagree with the merger of an individual and a piece of Investiture to create a Cognitive Shadow, instead holding the interpretation that the Investiture acts as an anchor, mainly because of what we saw in Mistborn. Ah ok I see. But spren bond more than one individual over the course of their existence, would that imply that there are multiple ghost-radiants for each spren? Plus in some cases a live surgebinder? Seems an awful lot of stuff for one spren to be holding on to. I don't know if your average nahel spren has enough investiture to make several radiant Shadows. Simple Connection as a means of keeping them around seems too little to me, I agree with Extesian that it's the incredible amounts of kinetic investiture that turns them into CSs. It just feels simpler. As I understand it that's what happened Spoiler to Kelsier in SH, but quicker because the investiture was far more abundant and concentrated. This WoB is a big part of why I think the stormlight causes them the become CS instead of the spren: Quote Q: You’ve said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows “stapled” back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree? A: Elantrians are something different. They don’t actually “die” to be created. Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I’m not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. This makes me think it is usually a process that takes a lot of time. Returned are admittedly weird, but I think the divine breath isn't stuck to the soul like regular breath, but seeps into the soul and becomes the soul given enough time. This is speculation, but I think in all cases the investiture ends up becoming the soul, so if it was the spren that makes a CS the spren would be consumed to make it. Edited August 16, 2017 by Ciridae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted August 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 On 8/16/2017 at 4:33 AM, Ciridae said: Ah ok I see. But spren bond more than one individual over the course of their existence, would that imply that there are multiple ghost-radiants for each spren? Plus in some cases a live surgebinder? Seems an awful lot of stuff for one spren to be holding on to. I don't know if your average nahel spren has enough investiture to make several radiant Shadows. Simple Connection as a means of keeping them around seems too little to me, I agree with Extesian that it's the incredible amounts of kinetic investiture that turns them into CSs. It just feels simpler. As I understand it that's what happened Reveal hidden contents to Kelsier in SH, but quicker because the investiture was far more abundant and concentrated. This WoB is a big part of why I think the stormlight causes them the become CS instead of the spren: This makes me think it is usually a process that takes a lot of time. Returned are admittedly weird, but I think the divine breath isn't stuck to the soul like regular breath, but seeps into the soul and becomes the soul given enough time. This is speculation, but I think in all cases the investiture ends up becoming the soul, so if it was the spren that makes a CS the spren would be consumed to make it. You ended the quote a little too early (emphasis mine): Quote Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul. Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety. I am firmly in the latter camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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