Quote that made me think of the Cosmere

[the_archduke]

Just came across this quote:

“When a religious scheme is shattered it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful.”  - G.K. Chesterton

I wonder if Brandon had heard it before he came up with the Shattering of Adonalsium.  

Thus autonomy is a virtue, but Autonomy is doing bad things, divorced from things like Devotion and Ambition.

Ooh.  Honor separated from Odium is leading to people like Amaram, who are "honorable" but do not hate suffering.

[Calderis]

Never seen that before. It's very very fitting. 

Nice find. 

[lyht]

This is awesome. Even in things like shardblades separated from the guidance of the Nahel Bond, or the Nahel Bond without the benefit of Honor's involvement. It really seems to match with a lot of the stories being told.

[aemetha]

Autonomy is a virtue? Are you sure, or are you influenced by a culture that defines it as virtuous where other cultures value communalism in much the same way? Do the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many? I don't think really any shard of Adonalsium can be viewed as virtuous or villainous, they are all simply necessary. Even the least palatable of shards is necessary, for without Odium what motivates a person to cease tolerating the intolerable when other methods have failed? I think the moral is that all absolutism is ultimately dysfunctional.

[Calderis]

9 hours ago, aemetha said:

Autonomy is a virtue? Are you sure, or are you influenced by a culture that defines it as virtuous where other cultures value communalism in much the same way? Do the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many? I don't think really any shard of Adonalsium can be viewed as virtuous or villainous, they are all simply necessary. Even the least palatable of shards is necessary, for without Odium what motivates a person to cease tolerating the intolerable when other methods have failed? I think the moral is that all absolutism is ultimately dysfunctional.

Preach it! 

[Oversleep]

On 11.08.2017 at 8:14 PM, the_archduke said:

people like Amaram, who are "honorable" but do not hate suffering

wait, what? Who in their right mind would call Amaram honorable if they knew what he did?

[the_archduke]

That's the point.  Divorced from other virtues, Amaram could be called honorable.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

That's the point.  Divorced from other virtues, Amaram could be called honorable.

No. Amaram puts forward an honorable image. He is not honorable, even by the standards of twisted honor by removing it from other traits. Hell, especially because of that. 

Honor in this context is holding yourself to a code of conduct. Amaram presents a code for the world to see, and willingly and repeatedly breaks that code in secret. He is knowingly and intentionally dishonorable. He just maintains a good image. 

Honor, separated from other motives, is actually harder, to maintain. When tempered by compassion, honor allows for the chosen code to bend to accommodate circumstances. Without any mitigating factors, Honor requires that no matter the cost or the situation, you stand by the chosen code. 

It why Szeth is arguably the most honorable character in SA. He held to his code of honor, at the cost of his health and sanity and the stability of the world. 

Amaram holds to nothing unless someone is watching. 

[aemetha]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Without any mitigating factors, Honor requires that no matter the cost or the situation, you stand by the chosen code. 

You could make an argument that Amaram is doing that though, what he presents publicly just isn't the code of honour he follows. His code of honour is to do whatever it takes to advance the goals of the Sons of Honor, and return the desolations. That he feels remorse for what he feels are immoral acts that he performs only makes his adherence to his code more telling, much the same way that Szeth holds to his code despite his moral abhorrence of the acts he must perform.

For a real life parallel, the Assassins (the historical ones, not the caricature from a popular video game) comes to mind. They would infiltrate for months or even years the society of their target, presenting to the outside world as being a compliant part of the codes of that society. When it came time to perform their act, they would strike at their target, taking care not to do so indiscriminately and using a blade, and then they would just stand and wait to be captured so that is was known their target died by the hand of the Assassins. That's pretty strict adherence to their code, but their code isn't what is presented to the outside world at all times by necessity.

I'm not sure at this point if that is completely what is happening with Amaram, I don't think we've really seen enough of his thought processes to determine that. I don't think his non-adherence to an outwardly presented code of conduct necessarily disqualifies him as being honourable to an internal code of conduct though.

[The One Who Connects]

On 8/13/2017 at 10:29 AM, Calderis said:

It why Szeth is arguably the most honorable character in SA. He held to his code of honor, at the cost of his health and sanity and the stability of the world.

Also why he is one of the more polarizing characters in SA. He's one of the few "villain" characters that doesn't have "good intentions" as one of his motivations, and that makes him much harder to forgive in many people's eyes. He replaced "good intentions" with "following his code no matter what" and serves as a prime example of why that isn't always a good thing.

As much as we like to bash on dishonorable characters in media, we all know there are times where following the rules is the wrong choice. This is probably gonna be a character struggle for Dalinar later down the line: When does "being honorable" stop being "doing the right thing" and turn into "following the rules, regardless of the consequences"?
It feels somewhat odd, yet somehow right, that the character closest to being like Szeth might be Dalinar(the walking definition of "good guy" for most readers before the flashbacks happened)

On 8/13/2017 at 3:37 PM, aemetha said:

For a real life parallel, the Assassins (the historical ones). [..] for months or even years the society of their target, presenting to the outside world as being a compliant part of the codes of that society. When it came time to perform their act, they would strike, taking care not to do so indiscriminately and using a blade, and then they would just wait to be captured so that is was known their target died by the hand of the Assassins. That's pretty strict adherence to their code, but their code isn't what is presented to the outside world at all times by necessity.

I realized why your example didn't sit right with me. If memory serves, our historical assassins actually followed the codes of the societies they infiltrated to achieve their goal, in the same way Nalan is obsessed with the "law of the (specific) land." Amaram doesn't really seem to do that. Or seem the type to do that, in my opinion.

---

Being honorable is being consistent with following your code. The big thing that I see here is a matter of where the line is drawn. At what point is your own code superseded by something else?

• With Szeth, his personal code is king. Nothing has higher authority than his code, nothing can make him bend or break his code. The situation, the consequences, the morality, they are all irrelevant.
• With Nalan, the judicial law takes precedence over his own code. If something in his code is contradicted by a local law, then that bit of his code takes a backseat for a time.
• With Amaram, what overrules what? I agree that we haven't seen enough of his actions to say for sure, but I get the feeling that "if he stands to gain from it," it could trump societal codes and his organizational code. Other times, the Sons of Honor's goals come first. It feels too inconsistent, which is why I don't subscribe to him being honorable.

Even Kaladin had points where he was willing to put his code aside, but that doesn't suddenly make him a bad guy. It simply gave him a less than perfect record, which is where we are all at. Nobody has a perfect record, as our honor is marred/tempered by morals and compassion, lest we end up like Szeth.

The true measure of how "honorable" someone is would be a list of situations where you would be willing to break your code. Szeth's list contains nothing. Nalan's list is "only when a local law overrules my code." Dalinar's list (might currently be empty, come to think of it..), but it will likely have a few more things on it by the end of his story arc. How long would Amaram's list be?

Edited September 10, 2017 by The One Who Connects