Wierd Elhokar RAFO

[Yitzi2]

On 8/8/2017 at 0:45 PM, Pagerunner said:

Not every RAFO hides a secret

Which may be intentional; if every RAFO hid a secret, then that would essentially make it a confirmation to the question "is there a secret involved here", and often there's only one plausible secret.

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 hours ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

But we do take those things into consideration. Circumstances, conditions, and the feelings of the perpetrator. In a court of law especially. Crimes of passion, first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter. Premeditated, aggravated, temporary insanity. We do it all the time. Doesn't push the crime to the side, but it does alter the punishment and sentence served.

Honestly, many of those degrees are mostly in USA. In most of Europe murder is murder, and even if it is in self defense it never goes fully unpunished, with the possible punishment been from a fine to 10 years in jail. Yes, the conditions and circumstances can alter the punishment, but it is rarely given a pass even with the best reasoning in the world. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[The Ninja Yodeler]

13 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Honestly, many of those degrees are mostly in USA. In most of Europe murder is murder, and even if it is in self defense it never goes fully unpunished, with the possible punishment been from a fine to 10 years in jail. Yes, the conditions and circumstances can alter the punishment, but it is rarely given a pass even with the best reasoning in the world. 

No not a pass. The action was done. No changing it. And as I was typing, I was thinking " Ya know, it might be different in other countries" lol, so fair point.

[Eilemelie]

I honestly can´t say that I can see much likelihood of character development towards likeability in Elhokar's near future. The reason that I'm saying this is because despite all that has happened to him in the past, despite being a grown man, a father and husband, despite having been put in a position where you'd need to grow up fast as the ruler of a storming country Elhokar still hasn't stopped acting like a child. And a whiny, spoiled brat at that! He never thinks about the consequences before he acts, and when the bad things inevitably happens he doesn't even take responsibility for them. He's always depended on others, first his father and now his uncle, to clean up his mistakes. And I haven't seen a thing showing that he actually cares what happens to others. Seriously, he even picks at his food like a child!

If nothing so far has managed to break him out of it, I'm not sure even the refunding of the Knights Radiant and the end of things as we know them would. I'd be happy to see my predictions wrong because it is seriously annoying to read about a grown kid, but I'd be equally happy if the turn of events meant that he would fall out of the focus of the story.

 

[Toaster Retribution]

14 minutes ago, Eilemelie said:

I honestly can´t say that I can see much likelihood of character development towards likeability in Elhokar's near future. The reason that I'm saying this is because despite all that has happened to him in the past, despite being a grown man, a father and husband, despite having been put in a position where you'd need to grow up fast as the ruler of a storming country Elhokar still hasn't stopped acting like a child. And a whiny, spoiled brat at that! He never thinks about the consequences before he acts, and when the bad things inevitably happens he doesn't even take responsibility for them. He's always depended on others, first his father and now his uncle, to clean up his mistakes. And I haven't seen a thing showing that he actually cares what happens to others. Seriously, he even picks at his food like a child!

If nothing so far has managed to break him out of it, I'm not sure even the refunding of the Knights Radiant and the end of things as we know them would. I'd be happy to see my predictions wrong because it is seriously annoying to read about a grown kid, but I'd be equally happy if the turn of events meant that he would fall out of the focus of the story.

 

The thing is, we see clear signs of change in Elhokar. We know that he isn't proud of his actions, and that he wants to do the right thing. We know that he wants to change. I think that his interactions with Kaladin, and actually being saved from two assassins will change his outlook on life. 

He tries to make the best of his situations too. He arguably saves Dalinars life during Adolins duel, he brought the darkeyes to the arena, he asked Kaladin for advice and admitted his mistakes. Elhokar doesn't lack the will to change. He lacks the strenght (and yes, maybe compassion).

Edited August 13, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[maxal]

46 minutes ago, Eilemelie said:

I honestly can´t say that I can see much likelihood of character development towards likeability in Elhokar's near future. The reason that I'm saying this is because despite all that has happened to him in the past, despite being a grown man, a father and husband, despite having been put in a position where you'd need to grow up fast as the ruler of a storming country Elhokar still hasn't stopped acting like a child. And a whiny, spoiled brat at that! He never thinks about the consequences before he acts, and when the bad things inevitably happens he doesn't even take responsibility for them. He's always depended on others, first his father and now his uncle, to clean up his mistakes. And I haven't seen a thing showing that he actually cares what happens to others. Seriously, he even picks at his food like a child!

If nothing so far has managed to break him out of it, I'm not sure even the refunding of the Knights Radiant and the end of things as we know them would. I'd be happy to see my predictions wrong because it is seriously annoying to read about a grown kid, but I'd be equally happy if the turn of events meant that he would fall out of the focus of the story.

 

I agree with this commentary. There is too much "I" within Elhokar's pleas for help at becoming a stronger king, there is too much selfishness into this man for him to grow sympathetic. Mind, if he were a protagonist and if Brandon were willing to dedicate a significant portion of the main narrative towards further developing Elhokar, then perhaps he could accomplish the masterful twist of rendering him likable. I however feel there are so many more interesting stories to tell within the existing narrative I ended up thinking Elhokar learning to become a great king and an all-acclaimed Radiant is not really interesting. It is too convenient and repetitive within the existing narrative, especially since Elhokar has never exhibited the real desire to make an effort towards bettering himself. He just expects it will be handed down to him. He does not expect he'll have to work for it.

I personally don't feel Elhokar is a character the story should focus on. He would do nothing to create camaraderie or team work or inter-character inter-action. His purpose has so far been to act as a foil to Dalinar and not all foils can grow outside their purpose like Adolin: some are bound to remain foils and Elhokar's role is to represent the guilt Dalinar has always felt towards his brother Gavilar.

41 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

He arguably saves Dalinars life during Adolins duel, he brought the darkeyes to the arena, he asked Kaladin for advice and admitted his mistakes. Elhokar doesn't lack the will to change. He lacks the strenght (and yes, maybe compassion).

 And he arguably dooms Adolin by convincing Dalinar his firstborn's life really doesn't matter all that much compared to his own life. He might have been politically right, but considering we are speaking of family here, it was truly wrong to condemn Adolin without even trying to help him. I know the majority of readers feel the end justifies the means and if sacrificing Adolin helps Dalinar achieve his end goal, then it will be worth it, especially since Adolin will readily die for his father. I happen to disagree. Wasting away the life of an ally and a family member to gain dubious political advantage is not a gamble people should be willing to make. In this scene, Elhokar stated those Shards were worth more than Adolin, thus Adolin ending up dead or cripple was a risk they ought to be willing to take whereas Dalinar's initial reaction was to get his son out of there as quickly as possible. 

Elhokar's discourse is thus not admirable. It just highlighted how Dalinar will always favor Elhokar next to his own son. Elhokar got what he wanted. He might have been right, politically wise, but it doesn't speak positively towards what kind of man he is. On one scene he praises his cousin, on the next he dooms him and I am supposed to find him sympathetic?

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I however feel there are so many more interesting stories to tell within the existing narrative I ended up thinking Elhokar learning to become a great king and an all-acclaimed Radiant is not really interesting. It is too convenient and repetitive within the existing narrative, especially since Elhokar has never exhibited the real desire to make an effort towards bettering himself. He just expects it will be handed down to him. He does not expect he'll have to work for it.

I disagree with this. First off, Elhokar can better himself without taking too much space. Brandon is a skilled enough writer to develop secondary non-POV characters while still keeping focus on the main story and the major protagonists. I also dont feel that it would be realistic for Elhokar to be in a state of stagnation, with him consistently being a bad king. He is important enough to warrant some development in his character, either toward making him a better person, or to make him a worse one. I would be okay with both, but I hope that he is going to become a better person, and that seems to be the direction he is currently pointing towards.

I also think that Elhokar is working for becoming a better king. Admitting your faults to someone you have wronged isn´t easy. It requires swallowing your pride and being honest about your faults. That takes work. It also takes work to ask someone who is (from your point of view) beneath you for help. It takes work to try to figure out how to become better by yourself, which is what Elhokar himself states that he will do when Kaladin denies him help. He is working. You can have opinions about his motivation for working, and that he is doing it for selfish reasons, but I think it is hard to deny that he is fighting for becoming better. 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

And he arguably dooms Adolin by convincing Dalinar his firstborn's life really doesn't matter all that much compared to his own life. He might have been politically right, but considering we are speaking of family here, it was truly wrong to condemn Adolin without even trying to help him. I know the majority of readers feel the end justifies the means and if sacrificing Adolin helps Dalinar achieve his end goal, then it will be worth it, especially since Adolin will readily die for his father. I happen to disagree. Wasting away the life of an ally and a family member to gain dubious political advantage is not a gamble people should be willing to make. In this scene, Elhokar stated those Shards were worth more than Adolin, thus Adolin ending up dead or cripple was a risk they ought to be willing to take whereas Dalinar's initial reaction was to get his son out of there as quickly as possible. 

Elhokar's discourse is thus not admirable. It just highlighted how Dalinar will always favor Elhokar next to his own son. Elhokar got what he wanted. He might have been right, politically wise, but it doesn't speak positively towards what kind of man he is. On one scene he praises his cousin, on the next he dooms him and I am supposed to find him sympathetic?

I agree that it is completely wrong to value Shards over Adolin, which I admit that Elhokar did during the fight. I do think however that he is right in preventing Dalinar from fighting. He does this when his Shards are no longer in danger of being lost. He does this because he is worried that Dalinar might die, which is how Adolin thinks as well. Adolin himself tells Dalinar that he is the most important one of them all, which is why he goes to see Eshonai instead of Dalinar. Adolin and Elhokar both know that Dalinar cant die. I strongly doubt that Adolin would have allowed Dalinar to enter the duel. I feel like he would have agreed with Elhokars assessment of the situation, that it was too risky. I don´t even think that Elhokar stopping Dalinar from joining the fight was immoral. What I think was immoral was not joining the fight himself, because that is something he could have done (which he later acknowledges and regrets not doing).

[maxal]

46 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I disagree with this. First off, Elhokar can better himself without taking too much space. Brandon is a skilled enough writer to develop secondary non-POV characters while still keeping focus on the main story and the major protagonists. I also dont feel that it would be realistic for Elhokar to be in a state of stagnation, with him consistently being a bad king. He is important enough to warrant some development in his character, either toward making him a better person, or to make him a worse one. I would be okay with both, but I hope that he is going to become a better person, and that seems to be the direction he is currently pointing towards.

I also think that Elhokar is working for becoming a better king. Admitting your faults to someone you have wronged isn´t easy. It requires swallowing your pride and being honest about your faults. That takes work. It also takes work to ask someone who is (from your point of view) beneath you for help. It takes work to try to figure out how to become better by yourself, which is what Elhokar himself states that he will do when Kaladin denies him help. He is working. You can have opinions about his motivation for working, and that he is doing it for selfish reasons, but I think it is hard to deny that he is fighting for becoming better. 

I think this comes down to what we would both enjoy reading the most. I definitely agree status quo is not extraordinarily interesting and given the little development Elhokar has gotten, it seems a bad strategy. Thus, by advocating Elhokar bettering himself does not make an interesting story or I shall be more specific, it doesn't make a story arc I am personally interested in reading, I am indeed advocating for the opposite to happen. From my perspective, Elhokar has grown into a spoiled selfish individual mostly because he was never asked to work for anything: it was all handed down to him, including Shards. He never had to earn them nor to have them contribute in whichever way to the war effort except in lenting them to those make the demand for dueling and/or practice purposes. This would be one quality I would find into his character as despite being plain unlikable, he did keep on maintaining the tradition wanting those desiring it to practice with the king's Shards. This was very honorable of him, so I thought I ought to mention it. This being said, Elhokar has been spoiled, as far as we can see, mostly by his uncle. We know why. Dalinar spoils Elhokar in reaction to his guilt towards Gavilar and we will see, within his flashbacks, it started way before Gavilar's death.

Hence, Elhokar's character exists to represent this guilt Dalinar has. All his life he tried to compensate for negative feelings he couldn't control by being overly lenient with his brother's son. Something ought to come out of it and seeing Elhokar move from the clutches of Dalinar, come into a great king truly isn't the story arc we are being groom for considering Dalinar is the main protagonist and not Elhokar. It is thus, if Elhokar suddenly magically grows up, mans up and does the right things by spontaneously managing to transform himself into a worthy leader (slightly implausible, IMO, either you have it or you don't, when it comes to leadership and when you don't you often compensate by turning into a bully), then what does it mean for Dalinar's character? Nothing. All his spoils and unjust attitude towards Elhokar becomes rewarded just as his attitude towards Adolin never shines as "wrong". Dalinar is the character we on the way to see grow and considering his relationship with Elhokar, I definitely think this growth will pass by removing this guilt he spent a lifetime having towards Gavilar. And I don't see it happening if Elhokar magically turns for the better, but I see it happening if Elhokar's weaknesses become something he has to both acknowledge and deal with.

My thoughts are the most interesting story arc, when it comes to Elhokar, is the one where he becomes an antagonist to Dalinar and transforms himself into someone Dalinar has to deal with, independently of him being his brother's son, independently of the years he spend nurturing his love for him to the expense of his own son.

What if Elhokar's efforts to better himself, as you eloquently put it, ends up in him opposing his uncle? Opposing the Radiants? Threatening the unity Dalinar is trying to accomplish? What if by trying to stop listening to everyone, Elhokar actually grows into a problem? Another strong-headed mule-headed Kholin who thinks he is right and is ready to cause great havoc, in a time where they can't afford it, just to see it through? I mean Gavilar was no angel. He conquered his princedom, he presumably terminated opposing branches of the Kholin family, he then set himself up to conquer Alethkar by warring villages having no idea why they even were attacked... He was the bad guy. Gavilar was the invader. It isn't so far-fetched to think his son might also end up being the bad guy, not because he means to, but because becoming his own man might actually mean he will positioned himself against Dalinar, because he might not agree with what his uncle is trying to achieve. And he is the King. Not Dalinar.

That. That would be interesting, IMHO.

46 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I agree that it is completely wrong to value Shards over Adolin, which I admit that Elhokar did during the fight. I do think however that he is right in preventing Dalinar from fighting. He does this when his Shards are no longer in danger of being lost. He does this because he is worried that Dalinar might die, which is how Adolin thinks as well. Adolin himself tells Dalinar that he is the most important one of them all, which is why he goes to see Eshonai instead of Dalinar. Adolin and Elhokar both know that Dalinar cant die. I strongly doubt that Adolin would have allowed Dalinar to enter the duel. I feel like he would have agreed with Elhokars assessment of the situation, that it was too risky. I don´t even think that Elhokar stopping Dalinar from joining the fight was immoral. What I think was immoral was not joining the fight himself, because that is something he could have done (which he later acknowledges and regrets not doing).

The fact Adolin does agree his life is expendable and means less than his father's life is precisely why I find this scene so heart-breaking. As I said, politically speaking, Elhokar was right: going into the dueling ring probably was suicide for Dalinar (though the outcome of such actions have not been written, so we have to keep in mind Dalinar may not have been killed), but how hypocritical is it for Dalinar to refuse to intervene, on his son's behalf, only to stand up and demand someone else ought to? I mean, I hate Amaram, I really do, but blaming him for not jeopardizing his life when Dalinar isn't even willing to risk his, for his own son, truly was... well... hypocritical. This, of course, is not Elhokar's fault, not directly. Mostly I blame Elhokar from preventing his uncle to send runners to warn Adolin to forfeit the fight as the gamble was not worth his life. Had he not hesitate, who's to say the runners wouldn't have gotten to Adolin in time? Who's to say those precious minutes of hesitation towards the gamble at hands: Shards vs Adolin's physical integrity weren't significant? The story doesn't say. It may be there was nothing Dalinar could have done, but I would have preferred to see him try. I would have preferred if Elhokar had try to intervene because no all the Shards Dalinar own were NOT worth Adolin's life. Not in a million year and to have these two suddenly agree they did was a really harsh moment for me, as a reader.

I agree with your latest point. Elhokar had the means and the capacity to enter the fight. He would not have been harmed nor killed (the endgame wasn't to harm the king, even Sadeas would have agreed it was too soon and improper), but he had the possibility to make a real difference, to show his skills with a Blade and to have everyone acclaim him. He had it. He could have done it, but he was too much of a coward to do it. Well, he never says why he didn't do it, so I am assuming that's because he was too afraid. It could be something else though.

Edited August 13, 2017 by maxal

[Toaster Retribution]

@maxal I have heard your idea about Elhokars future story and development before in another thread (long ago), and I really like it. I would love if that happened, but I would also love if Elhokar got to man up a bit, and become a more symphatetic character to the readers, and a better man as well. I like the guy (as you probably understand, given our long discussion about him). The best possible outcome for Elhokars storyline would, in my opinion, be the one were he does manage to fix some of his faults, and even becomes a more symphatetic character, that more readers can relate too, as well as becoming an antagonist to Dalinar. I feel like that would be truly interesting. 

Regarding the duel, I don´t recall anything about Elhokar preventing Dalinar from sending runners to Adolin, only that he stopped him from entering the arena himself. 

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Regarding the duel, I don´t recall anything about Elhokar preventing Dalinar from sending runners to Adolin, only that he stopped him from entering the arena himself. 

I think many readers assume if Elhokar grows up and achieve his purpose of becoming a stronger king, it automatically implies he will endorse Dalinar's way of doing things. It doesn't. Elhokar as a king with some influence may not want to compromise the Alethkar as he knows it in order to attempt at his uncle dreams of unity against a threat they haven't really seen yet. Worst, knowing how Elhokar is looking for fame and glory, he might decide he will lead the war against the Desolation by first conquering neighboring nations. Or he may just not enjoy seeing so many Radiants and ban them from his personal counsel: many things could happen and I certainly think Elhokar working in opposition of Dalinar is by far the most interesting option. The alternative just doesn't render interesting growth and characterization for Dalinar's character while offering something a tad too repetitive for Elhokar.

I can't say it will make him more sympathetic as I do think Elhokar will retain his major flaws: being spoiled, selfish and entitled. I do think how Dalinar has ignored his fault will play a role within the future narrative.

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Regarding the duel, I don´t recall anything about Elhokar preventing Dalinar from sending runners to Adolin, only that he stopped him from entering the arena himself. 

Technically, he doesn't prevent Dalinar from sending runners, but when Dalinar sees the four Shardbearers his first instincts are to send someone to tell Adolin to forfeit. Elhokar stops him before he does so by demanding if this is such a good idea as those Shards are all those he owns, thus settling in the fact Adolin's life is worth less than those Shards. Dalinar reflects on those arguments and abide, comforting himself in thinking they would have probably not have had enough time to prevent the fight.

Had Elhokar been another man, he too would have jumped forward to send runners to make the fight stop before Adolin steps in it. Everyone knows Adolin can't beat four Shardbearers. Thus, the second Elhokar questions Dalinar, he dooms Adolin. The second Dalinar agrees to not take immediate action, he also dooms Adolin. They both know it. The fact Adolin is alright with it doesn't make it alright, not to me.

[AbsentKeeper]

On 8/13/2017 at 9:07 PM, maxal said:

Thus, the second Elhokar questions Dalinar, he dooms Adolin. The second Dalinar agrees to not take immediate action, he also dooms Adolin. They both know it. The fact Adolin is alright with it doesn't make it alright, not to me.

I would like to point out one thing that I think has been skimmed over in the discussion regarding this fight.

Remember that this wasn't supposed to be a fight to the death, it was supposed to be a structured duel, if an unfair one. Until he actually tries to forfeit and they stop him, and then Renarin enters the arena and becomes a hostage, even Adolin assumes that he will be able to abdicate and give up just the shards, not that he would die in the arena.

Maybe it was my personal interpretation, but I didn't read this scene anywhere near as harshly as it seems many people did, even on re-reads after I knew that they were going to try and kill him.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Cowmanthethird