Steeldancer

My Model of Realmatics- and speculations on aluminum

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Remember that the metals are not Investiture themselves (well, they are, but locked in physical form, just as everything is), but the key needed to access the power of Preservation. I think we are allowed a free-pass on aluminum as a "burnable" metal in that I think burning it more or less (instantaneously, but temporarily) storms up your connection to preservation and purges the rest of your metals (/keys).

Not exactly a very refined theory, but what I am trying to say is that the peculiar nature of aluminum in general might in-and-of-itself account for what it does Allomantically.

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4 minutes ago, Aether said:

Remember that the metals are not Investiture themselves (well, they are, but locked in physical form, just as everything is), but the key needed to access the power of Preservation. I think we are allowed a free-pass on aluminum as a "burnable" metal in that I think burning it more or less (instantaneously, but temporarily) storms up your connection to preservation and purges the rest of your metals (/keys).

Not exactly a very refined theory, but what I am trying to say is that the peculiar nature of aluminum in general might in-and-of-itself account for what it does Allomantically.

I disagree. If aluminum were simply cutting of access, it would stop the ability to burn metals, and/or neutralize any effects they produce. 

The fact that it actually burns away the metals themselves, not just investiture effects shows an actual investiture output from Preservation. 

As you said previously, the metals themselves are not invested they are just keys. Aluminum doesn't just stop the investiture when it's burned, it actively targets and destroys means of accessing investiture that aren't invested themselves. 

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. If aluminum were simply cutting of access, it would stop the ability to burn metals, and/or neutralize any effects they produce. 

The fact that it actually burns away the metals themselves, not just investiture effects shows an actual investiture output from Preservation.

I don't have the book in front of me right now, but does it actually burn them away? Duralumin does make you burn whatever you're currently burning away in an instance. But from what I remember about the passages where Vin burns aluminium, does the metals just... disappear? Metals around whomever is burning the aluminium doesn't get thrown away, no emotions are affected, the metals are just purged.

There is definitely something fonky going on, and the specific mechanics of this I am unsure of. I might be wrong on the details, but what I am trying to suggest is that we might not need to account for aluminium's role in Allomancy when it comes to its broader Realmatic effects (or lack there-of). It's strange behaviour in Allomancy might be accounted for by the fonkiness of the metal itself (whatever that fonkiness might be exactly).

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@Aether the metals are consumed without producing an effect.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1152#96

Quote

QUESTION

Aluminum, when you burn aluminum, does it actually destroy the metals or just take away their power?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It destroys the metals.

QUESTION

Same with chromium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah.

QUESTION

So it actually gets rid of the metals?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It actually trans-- It does a-- matter, energy, investiture are the same things in the cosmere. You have some sort of transfer happening relating to those things.

QUESTION

The question sort of relates to metal poisoning--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah, you would not get metal poisoning after that

 

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I know metals are just a gateway for the flow of Preservation's investiture, I'm just suggesting that, concurrent to that flow, there's an extra small amount of kinetic investiture that you get from the metal itself being converted from a physical metal (matter) into investiture. 

In terms of the metal being forcibly converted, and how that relates to my unformed theory, my best guess is that the effect, in Allomancy, of outputting that null waveform is to instantly convert matter into investiture, but the investiture is in this unusable state/wave/tone. But you can see how speculative this is, I'm just trying to present a way to think about aluminum. I'd be surprised if I'm right. 

Edit - to clarify, as I just saw the last two posts, that WoB is why I have that idea in my mind that they are converted into investiture, but that the investiture must somehow be unusable

Edited by Extesian
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Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON
It actually trans-- It does a-- matter, energy, investiture are the same things in the cosmere. You have some sort of transfer happening relating to those things.

O_o! Interesting. I was not aware of this WoB (GODS I am out of the loop).

It does have a rather specific effect, then. Disregard what I suggested, then. Unless we count this within my aforementioned "fonkiness".

 

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On 8/7/2017 at 0:45 PM, Flash said:

So I've mentioned this a couple of times in different threads, about how I view the relationship between the realms, as well as investiture, matter, and energy. 

I've explained it a couple times as 3 sheets of paper close together, and investiture is a weight that draws them together. But this isn't really entirely right. Paper isn't the right analogue. The three sheets are more like how space time is pictured in 2D: stretchy, not stiff like paper. Then three of these "sheets" are how I view realmatics. . 

I have always envision them as 3 different colors of yarn twisted together and then rolled up into a ball.  You can still see each of the individual colors close up, but from a distance it simply is one color.  Each individual string is closely integrated into the whole and closely touching both other strings in multiple ways.  The 3 twisted strings into 1 new string are the 3 phases and each point on the new string represents how it could be in each phase much like solid, liquid, and gas.  Separate, yet joined.  The ball is because each bit affects not just the bits next to it in the twisted triple, but other things as well.

Now the 3 realms I envision as a hypercube. There is a visual video demonstration of what I am talking about.  The physical realm is all the space inside the unfolded 3D hypercube.  The cognitive realm is the surface of the unfolded 3D hypercube.  The spiritual realm is the folded 4D hypercube.  This gives you a 2D cognitive realm, which follows our observations and WOBs.  A 3D physical realm which matches our observations. Both ignoring time as a dimension because reality is only experienced in the moment.  And finally a 4D spiritual realm where all time and locations exist as one.

On 8/7/2017 at 0:45 PM, Flash said:

Also, in a 2D view of spacetime, matter creates a dip, (as does energy, but to a lesser extent, given that matter is more... concentrated according to E=Mc^2.

I view concentrations of Investiture like shard pools very similar to this.  Like a black hole, large concentrations of Investiture warp space time in the physical and cognitive realms bringing them closer and closer together until they merge much like time and space do at the center of a singularity. 

On 8/7/2017 at 0:45 PM, Flash said:

Also, a little more theorization. I think that aluminum pushes the Realms apart, countering the "weight" of investiture. Because of that, that would mean that maybe a large block of aluminum could prevent spren from appearing. However it may be that the property of aluminum is totally within the aluminum itself, which would mean that it would be a moot point, because why would a spren materialize within a block of aluminum or any metal anyway. However, based on the fact that you only need a hat made of aluminum, and not an aluminum head to prevent emotional allomancy from affecting you, I think that the aluminum has a somewhat local effect, forcing the realms apart around the aluminum. Therefore, according to this model, a radiant wearing enough aluminum shouldn't be able to suck in stormlight. 

With aluminum, I look at it from an electronics standpoint.  I think of it as a circuit that when closed normally goes strait to ground.  It takes any Investiture applied to it and grounds it out in the spiritual realm.  Now circuits can be very complex, and in the case of feruchemy, I think there is an added bit...like a transistor, that shunts the Investiture off to an Investiture capacitor that stores it while charging.  Then a second transistor shunts it back to the user when withdrawing.   The gating for these is unique to each feruchemist.  

Edited by FiveLate
Now that I typed this all out maybe I should go make myself a couple more theory threads to espouse these thoughts.
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On 8/7/2017 at 10:45 AM, Flash said:

So I've mentioned this a couple of times in different threads, about how I view the relationship between the realms, as well as investiture, matter, and energy. 

I've explained it a couple times as 3 sheets of paper close together, and investiture is a weight that draws them together. But this isn't really entirely right. Paper isn't the right analogue. The three sheets are more like how space time is pictured in 2D: stretchy, not stiff like paper. Then three of these "sheets" are how I view realmatics. I also associate Matter with the physical realm, and Investiture in the Spiritual, which suggests that energy is related to the cognitive realm, which I'm still working on an explanation for that. Also, in a 2D view of spacetime, matter creates a dip, (as does energy, but to a lesser extent, given that matter is more... concentrated according to E=Mc^2. ) Investiture also does the same thing to the Realms, and that is key to how I picture realmatics. I will now use this model to explain how some various events work. 

First off, Highstorms. Highstorms are HUGE sources of investiture. The constant "weight" of that investiture has drawn the realms really close together on Roshar, so Spren appear. Furthermore, I have theorized that according to the fact that Shinovar never sees the brunt of the highstorms due to the mountains, that the realms are farther apart there. This (I think) is why spren don't appear there. It is ALSO (i think) why the plants have no life to them. They basically have no cognitive self compared to normal Rosharan grass and such. This also lends weight to the idea that perhaps the plants of Roshar are able to detect highstorms due to the investiture. When the realms start coming closer together, the trees and grass snap into their holes. Now of course it might be also a response to vibrations or something like that.

Second, Kaladins dramatic oaths. Someone asked at some point why (in world, for writing purposes it's for a Climax) Kaladin always bursts alight when he does his oaths, unlike the other radiants. The fact is, most of the other Radiants have constantly progressed towards their oaths. Kaladin, on the other hand, recedes during WoR and WoK. Then, suddenly, he makes the decision to follow his oaths, and snap! He bursts alight dramatically. Now in my picture of realmatics, I describe it like this. The oaths that bring the realms together are fading, therefore Syl isn't able to manifest or think as well, and his abilities recede. Then, he changes and suddenly his oaths are much stronger, snapping the realms much closer together. Ergo, investiture suddenly flows to him, and he becomes significantly more invested. Now I'm going to make some speculation. Normal people aren't invested enough (aren't making enough of a dent in the realms) to use investiture. But people who are invested make enough of a dent to suck in investiture. By this method, Vasher should be able to suck in stormlight, because he's invested with breaths. I also think that a misting actively burning their metal might be able to make enough of a dent to ingest Stormlight. 

Finally, perpendicularities. Brandon described a shardpool as "spiking" the realms together. This perfectly fits with how I picture it. Investiture, the "weight", formed into a spike and driven through the realms to bring them entirely together. Else calling would be more like a needle. 

Also, a little more theorization. I think that aluminum pushes the Realms apart, countering the "weight" of investiture. Because of that, that would mean that maybe a large block of aluminum could prevent spren from appearing. However it may be that the property of aluminum is totally within the aluminum itself, which would mean that it would be a moot point, because why would a spren materialize within a block of aluminum or any metal anyway. However, based on the fact that you only need a hat made of aluminum, and not an aluminum head to prevent emotional allomancy from affecting you, I think that the aluminum has a somewhat local effect, forcing the realms apart around the aluminum. Therefore, according to this model, a radiant wearing enough aluminum shouldn't be able to suck in stormlight. 

Hmmmmm...

What if Shinovar is the way it is because it has a big deposit of Aluminum under it :ph34r:

And the Shin would never know, because they have a taboo against digging up rocks.

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1 minute ago, Drake Marshall said:

Hmmmmm...

What if Shinovar is the way it is because it has a big deposit of Aluminum under it :ph34r:

And the Shin would never know, because they have a taboo against digging up rocks.

That would be hilarious. But somewhat unlikely, due to the relative rarity of natural Aluminum deposits. 

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Especially seeing as pure elemental aluminum basically never occurs naturally.

Which poses an interesting question.

Would an aluminum-containing compound have similar effects?

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There are several fairly large bauxite deposits on earth.....

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8 hours ago, FiveLate said:

There are several fairly large bauxite deposits on earth.....

Yeah, this is exactly it.

Does bauxite interfere with investiture, or would you need to refine it to get that property?

If not, the shin phenomenon could literally be the result of a bauxite deposit :P

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On 8/16/2017 at 4:58 PM, Drake Marshall said:

If not, the shin phenomenon could literally be the result of a bauxite deposit

Sorry, but would you mind relieving me of my ignorance? What exactly is the Shin phenomenon?

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21 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Sorry, but would you mind relieving me of my ignorance? What exactly is the Shin phenomenon?

He's referring to the earthlike conditions and lack of real highstorms in Shinovar. 

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Perhaps it would be more apt to say that Shin lacks the usual phenomona seen across the rest of Roshar.

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It seems (part of) this theory has been confirmed with a recent WoB:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314-salt-lake-city-signing/#e8920

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In our universe, mass and energy curve space.  I was wondering if investiture does the same or something similar

Brandon [PENDING REVIEW]

It does something similar.  It draws the three Realms together.  Imagine a gravitational pull piercing Realms.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

And that's how a perpendicularity works?

Brandon [PENDING REVIEW]

That's not the only way a perpendicularity works, but one surefire way to create a perpendicularity is a massive collection of Investiture in the Cognitive or mostly Physical realm.  But Cognitive's weird, doesn't always work the right way.  But there are ways to do it that way too.

 

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