Steeldancer

My Model of Realmatics- and speculations on aluminum

41 posts in this topic

So I've mentioned this a couple of times in different threads, about how I view the relationship between the realms, as well as investiture, matter, and energy. 

I've explained it a couple times as 3 sheets of paper close together, and investiture is a weight that draws them together. But this isn't really entirely right. Paper isn't the right analogue. The three sheets are more like how space time is pictured in 2D: stretchy, not stiff like paper. Then three of these "sheets" are how I view realmatics. I also associate Matter with the physical realm, and Investiture in the Spiritual, which suggests that energy is related to the cognitive realm, which I'm still working on an explanation for that. Also, in a 2D view of spacetime, matter creates a dip, (as does energy, but to a lesser extent, given that matter is more... concentrated according to E=Mc^2. ) Investiture also does the same thing to the Realms, and that is key to how I picture realmatics. I will now use this model to explain how some various events work. 

First off, Highstorms. Highstorms are HUGE sources of investiture. The constant "weight" of that investiture has drawn the realms really close together on Roshar, so Spren appear. Furthermore, I have theorized that according to the fact that Shinovar never sees the brunt of the highstorms due to the mountains, that the realms are farther apart there. This (I think) is why spren don't appear there. It is ALSO (i think) why the plants have no life to them. They basically have no cognitive self compared to normal Rosharan grass and such. This also lends weight to the idea that perhaps the plants of Roshar are able to detect highstorms due to the investiture. When the realms start coming closer together, the trees and grass snap into their holes. Now of course it might be also a response to vibrations or something like that.

Second, Kaladins dramatic oaths. Someone asked at some point why (in world, for writing purposes it's for a Climax) Kaladin always bursts alight when he does his oaths, unlike the other radiants. The fact is, most of the other Radiants have constantly progressed towards their oaths. Kaladin, on the other hand, recedes during WoR and WoK. Then, suddenly, he makes the decision to follow his oaths, and snap! He bursts alight dramatically. Now in my picture of realmatics, I describe it like this. The oaths that bring the realms together are fading, therefore Syl isn't able to manifest or think as well, and his abilities recede. Then, he changes and suddenly his oaths are much stronger, snapping the realms much closer together. Ergo, investiture suddenly flows to him, and he becomes significantly more invested. Now I'm going to make some speculation. Normal people aren't invested enough (aren't making enough of a dent in the realms) to use investiture. But people who are invested make enough of a dent to suck in investiture. By this method, Vasher should be able to suck in stormlight, because he's invested with breaths. I also think that a misting actively burning their metal might be able to make enough of a dent to ingest Stormlight. 

Finally, perpendicularities. Brandon described a shardpool as "spiking" the realms together. This perfectly fits with how I picture it. Investiture, the "weight", formed into a spike and driven through the realms to bring them entirely together. Else calling would be more like a needle. 

Also, a little more theorization. I think that aluminum pushes the Realms apart, countering the "weight" of investiture. Because of that, that would mean that maybe a large block of aluminum could prevent spren from appearing. However it may be that the property of aluminum is totally within the aluminum itself, which would mean that it would be a moot point, because why would a spren materialize within a block of aluminum or any metal anyway. However, based on the fact that you only need a hat made of aluminum, and not an aluminum head to prevent emotional allomancy from affecting you, I think that the aluminum has a somewhat local effect, forcing the realms apart around the aluminum. Therefore, according to this model, a radiant wearing enough aluminum shouldn't be able to suck in stormlight. 

Edited by Flash
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Ok this idea about aluminum has really gotten me thinking. If aluminum shoves the realms apart, it explains how it acts as an investiture sink. It also answers a personal question: does aluminum have a spiritual aspect. I've always thought it must, because it's weird if it doesn't. But if it's shoving the realms apart around it, you would never be able to use investiture (which draws the realms closer together) to view that spiritual aspect! 

Holy cow I'm blowing my own mind here. If you wrapped a (live) shard blade in aluminum foil, would it go back to the cognitive realm? What if you attacked a radiant with an aluminum alloy sword? I'm thinking their Shardplate would be essentially useless. 

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Firstly this theory does seem to fit with what has been seen and explains a lot. Secondly it may indeed under your premise return to the cognitive realm because its connection to the physical realm will have been severed. On the point of ant aluminum sword against shardplate it might still act as a temporary protection though at the same time it may render you immovable if it gets lodged in a crack.

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I've previously thought that the Three Realms best could be explained by Spiritual "input" turned into Physical "output" by a Cognitive "filter". The Spiritual Realm contains the essence of things (Platonic Ideals), which is filtered through the Cognitive Realm (how it is interpreted) and thus takes upon a physical from in the Material Realm.

Problem is that this model only explain the superficial relationship between the Realms, because there is a definite feedback-loop spanning all three of the Realms. Cognitive Identity takes on a life of is own by how it is viewed in the Material Realm, but that Identity can then also start to interpret itself, which can give consequences on how it appears in the physical. And the Spiritual Realm contains the essences of things, but also the connections between things (bonds between persons, objects and whatnot), and is thus by necessity informed by the Cognitive and Material Realms both.

And then there the fact that you can pass between at least two of the Realms under certain circumstances, such as entering Shadesmare in physical form fully.

So your three sheet model does fit better, but it is nothing new around these fora, I am afraid  have to point out.

4 hours ago, Flash said:

Second, Kaladins dramatic oaths. Someone asked at some point why (in world, for writing purposes it's for a Climax) Kaladin always bursts alight when he does his oaths, unlike the other radiants. The fact is, most of the other Radiants have constantly progressed towards their oaths. Kaladin, on the other hand, recedes during WoR and WoK. Then, suddenly, he makes the decision to follow his oaths, and snap! He bursts alight dramatically. Now in my picture of realmatics, I describe it like this. The oaths that bring the realms together are fading, therefore Syl isn't able to manifest or think as well, and his abilities recede. Then, he changes and suddenly his oaths are much stronger, snapping the realms much closer together. Ergo, investiture suddenly flows to him, and he becomes significantly more invested. Now I'm going to make some speculation. Normal people aren't invested enough (aren't making enough of a dent in the realms) to use investiture. But people who are invested make enough of a dent to suck in investiture. By this method, Vasher should be able to suck in stormlight, because he's invested with breaths. I also think that a misting actively burning their metal might be able to make enough of a dent to ingest Stormlight.

I've come to think upon Kalladin's bursts as something akin to what Raoden experienced the first time he was able to properly write that fire rune. A huge build up of excess power made him incinerate several rows of bookshelves (which Raoden seem to have attributed to a build up of thus far potentially hundreds of partial Aon runes that had summoned the Dor without providing a proper opening). Not sure if that adds anything, but I wanted to voice that out loud.

Anyway, Allomancy works fine wherever in the Cosmere apparently, and they don't need to use Investiture from other planets. The cosmere equivalent of molecules in their metals (even metals from other planets) functions like a "key" that lets them open a funnel to Preservations power directly. While they should be able to fuel their Allomancy with Stormlight or other types of Investiture too, this would require some form of "jailbreaking" of the magic systems in question, as per well known WoBs. I doubt that burning metals normally would just let them access Stormlight without some additional work-around.

4 hours ago, Flash said:

Finally, perpendicularities. Brandon described a shardpool as "spiking" the realms together. This perfectly fits with how I picture it. Investiture, the "weight", formed into a spike and driven through the realms to bring them entirely together.

Source your WoBs. I haven't heard of this one, and major Realmatics frameworks need to be well sourced, IMO. Yours isn't at all.

That being said, I do like the way of viewing the Realms as three (somewhat?) overlaying sheets of paper, though this hardly strays from how Brandon himself has described it in the books (look at Shai's explanation in the tES and cross-reference with Jasnah's attempted explanation at the beginning of WoR). I believe he might have explained it like this in a WoB somewhere, but I don't think that one will be easy to track down. The direct comparison to how real-world spatio-temporal bending in Special Relativity is often explained is novel, though.

Sources:

EDIT: Jeez. This post came off harsher than intended. Sorry. My point was to point out some of the problems of your model as well as request sourcing.

EDIT 2: Concerning Aluminum. I am not super familiar with the deep-end theorizing on the inert metal, but the way I've understood it is that it is just that - Investiture (?) inert somehow. I don't think it actively pushes Investiture away (certainly not that it pulls the Realms further apart), but that it blocks Investiture as a side-effect of being inert as a focus for Investiture.

Edited by Aether
Added a PS to avoid double posting
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@Aether I believe this is the WoB he was referencing 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1158#38

Quote

QUESTION

So we know how people can enter Shadesmar, or the cognitive realm, how do other places, like, we haven't seen anything for the Mistborn series. Do we know how they can enter?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Read Secret History.

QUESTION

I did read that, but it didn't really say anything besides that one special case.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Right, Hoid talks about Perpendicularities on Scadrial, if you go look at that there are certain places he talks about that. ,eyes just say that large concentrations of investiture can cause a puncture through the spiritual realm straight to the physical realm. If you know how to use it, you may transition. That's not the only way but is the primary way.

QUESTION

And of of Course you can soulcast (Elsecall?) to get there.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

Now that's a very interesting analogy you just made, you said "punctured" almost as if it were a spike.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, yes, that was intentional. Anyone who wants to ask questions after the Magic draft, you guys can come back in maybe 45 minutes. I'll just be hanging out and playing magic. If you’re just here to hang out and ask question, I'll be free to do that in about 45 minutes to an hour.

 

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It is interesting that he mentions that it punctures realms in all that he has shown it appears more like a tunnel rather than a rip in the realms.

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2 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

It is interesting that he mentions that it punctures realms in all that he has shown it appears more like a tunnel rather than a rip in the realms.

*glassy eyes, dreamy voice* What is a tunnel, but a rip into something else?

Seriously, though, I don't see why they need look or be that different.

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6 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

It is interesting that he mentions that it punctures realms in all that he has shown it appears more like a tunnel rather than a rip in the realms.

It's not a "rip" it's a puncture. 

Think of it like a hypodermic needle allowing investiture to be injected into the physical realm. 

What's the real difference between a tunnel and a hollow spike? 

Edit: Ninja'd 

Edited by Calderis
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In my view it is all the difference. One by definition is an inorganic hole created by the inserting of something that would not ordinarily be present. The other a tunnel is always present and it merely requires one to arrive there to pass through.

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4 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

In my view it is all the difference. One by definition is an inorganic hole created by the inserting of something that would not ordinarily be present. The other a tunnel is always present and it merely requires one to arrive there to pass through.

Considering a perpendicularity is created by the ongoing presence of a Shard on a world (in most cases) the idea that it is made rather than preexisting is apt. 

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14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering a perpendicularity is created by the ongoing presence of a Shard on a world (in most cases) the idea that it is made rather than preexisting is apt. 

It may be that it is created by the presence of shards, but after that they continue to to exist and don't require you to do very much outside of being there.

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The Spiritual realm is location-independent, right? Shouldn't that render the idea of local curvature (like we see due to mass in general relativity) entirely meaningless? Further, in mistborn the mists cover the entire planet each night, yet we don't see any spren appearing or plants gaining enhanced cognitive aspects. And in Elantris we've got the Dor, containing the entire combined powers of two whole shards, sitting pressurized in the cognitive realm but witness none of the effects (leakage of cognitive aspects, enhanced cognition of flora) that you describe happening in Roshar.

I like the idea, but parts of it don't seem to match reality off of Roshar.

Edited by Emerald101
slight correction, spelling
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Well it is a model. Models aren't entirely correct. Just a way of thinking about things. And @Aether, I'm better at remembering WoB's than I am finding them. That's why I'm looking forward to the new WoB archive so much. 

Anyway, I'm mostly excited about aluminum. We know it's an investiture sink, but since when has Brandon ever left things at that? There is an explanation for WHY it is an investiture sink. And I'll be darned if I can come up with another one better than this one. 

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10 minutes ago, Flash said:

And @Aether, I'm better at remembering WoB's than I am finding them. That's why I'm looking forward to the new WoB archive so much.

The problem is that memory can be faulty, and even when not, it is difficult for others to know whether provided information is correct or not without the sources. I am not suggesting that we abide by a strict and exhaustive sourcing standard, but I do ask for people to at least try to hunt down the sources. And when difficult, PMs or even just requests as a part of the post is fine too. I do believe we should aspire to a certain (liberal) standard, at least in such a heavy forum as "Cosmere Theories".

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2 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

It may be that it is created by the presence of shards, but after that they continue to to exist and don't require you to do very much outside of being there.

I'll agree to disagree. His wording inplies an influx from an external source. A puncture implies a forced entryway, not a natural pathway. 

8 hours ago, Flash said:

how I view the relationship between the realms, as well as investiture, matter, and energy. 

I agree with you for the most part. Especially in relation to the highstorms and Shinovar. 

8 hours ago, Flash said:

Second, Kaladins dramatic oaths

I believe Kaladin's backsliding and bursts due to a leap forward was my proposition, so yes I do agree here, but I don't think it's a result of the realms drawing together. I think it's purely a mechanism of the Nahel bond. 

I imagine that the bond receding doesn't lower the potential bond, but does weaken the current capabilities of the pair. 

When the bond is rapidly strengthened and expanded, I think it creates a rush of investiture, a vacuum of sorts,  to reinforce the expanded bond between the pair and that excess pours out, not from Stormlight, but directly from the spiritual where the pair are linked. 

As for aluminum... I don't agree. If it functions the way you are proposing it should have a kind of repulsive effect, kind of the opposite of a gravity well, that would force investiture away from it. It only seems to effect investiture that come into direct contact with it. "tin foil hats" act as a shield against an incoming allomantic force. 

Edit: @Emerald101 

Quote

Further, in mistborn the mists cover the entire planet each night, yet we don't see any spren appearing or plants gaining enhanced cognitive aspects.

The mists kind of fill the role of the Spren on Scadrial though. Their an investiture outlet. Ati didn't get them, because his excess investiture was tied up in atium. 

In modern era, if atium does return, there should be far less of it because there are two kinds of mist now. 

Quote

And in Elantris we've got the Dor, containing the entire combined powers of two whole shards, sitting pressurized in the cognitive realm but witness none of the effects (leakage of cognitive aspects, enhanced cognition of flora) that you describe happening in Roshar.

But we do witness effects from it. 

The Dor is the entire investiture of two shard shoved into the Cognitive rather than the spiritual where it belongs, so traditional Cognitive manifestations can't occur as they'd be ripped apart by the investiture in the Cognitive Realm. Instead, that investiture is seeping through into the landscape itself, making it become sentient itself as per the AU essay on the Sel system. 

Rather than the spiritual investiture pressing the realms all closer together, you have the pressure all in the mid-realm interfering and pressing them apart. 

Edited by Calderis
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3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Edit: @Emerald101 

The mists kind of fill the role of the Spren on Scadrial though. Their an investiture outlet. Ati didn't get them, because his excess investiture was tied up in atium. 

In modern era, if atium does return, there should be far less of it because there are two kinds of mist now. 

But we do witness effects from it. 

The Dor is the entire investiture of two shard shoved into the Cognitive rather than the spiritual where it belongs, so traditional Cognitive manifestations can't occur as they'd be ripped apart by the investiture in the Cognitive Realm. Instead, that investiture is seeping through into the landscape itself, making it become sentient itself as per the AU essay on the Sel system. 

Rather than the spiritual investiture pressing the realms all closer together, you have the pressure all in the mid-realm interfering and pressing them apart. 

I'll buy that the mists are Preservation's stand-in for splinters, and I agree that we do witness those effects due to the Dor. What I was saying was that the qualities we observe on Roshar that @Flash attempts to explain via a Realmatic "contraction" from heavy investiture presence aren't observed on Sel despite the heavy investiture presence there. Why would the investiture being in the cognitive instead of the spiritual affect its proposed realm-squeezing properties? Investiture transcends the three realms (source), and while its manifestations change between realms its basic properties shouldn't. 

I don't think spiritual investiture would have any effect one the closeness of the realms, or that at most it should have the same effect Cosmere-wide, being in the location independent spiritual. 

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1 minute ago, Emerald101 said:

I don't think spiritual investiture would have any effect one the closeness of the realms, or that at most it should have the same effect Cosmere-wide, being in the location independent spiritual. 

Well I don't necessarily think that "closeness" is the right word. There are many examples given for the way in which the realms are layered though. In all of them whether it's a perpendicularity, healing, or enactment of investiture in the use of a magic, the investiture must pass from the spiritual, through the Cognitive and into the physical. 

I think along similar lines to @Flash (thank you for removing "the" and the space from your name by the way, I can ping you now :)) except rather than seeing the realms like sheets of paper I view them like layers of liquid of different density with a thin barrier between each layer. 

When large quantities of investiture, like with the Stormfather pouring investiture through the storm, pass between the realms it tryst to erode that barrier. 

So on Roshar, the continual influx heavily erodes the partitions and allows for a much more common interaction. This is why spren become visible when change, or turbulence at the barriers, occurs. It will settle, but in the meantime though, things are crossing over that you wouldn't see if the barriers were more fixed. 

In Shinovar, where the storms can't reach, the barrier is more stable so attracting spren is more difficult Zander it's harder for them to manifest even if they are attracted, so they just aren't seen. 

That's my take on it. Like I said, similar outcome, but different processes. 

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10 hours ago, Emerald101 said:

I'll buy that the mists are Preservation's stand-in for splinters, and I agree that we do witness those effects due to the Dor. What I was saying was that the qualities we observe on Roshar that @Flash attempts to explain via a Realmatic "contraction" from heavy investiture presence aren't observed on Sel despite the heavy investiture presence there. Why would the investiture being in the cognitive instead of the spiritual affect its proposed realm-squeezing properties? Investiture transcends the three realms (source), and while its manifestations change between realms its basic properties shouldn't. 

I don't think spiritual investiture would have any effect one the closeness of the realms, or that at most it should have the same effect Cosmere-wide, being in the location independent spiritual. 

I think the effects are there. The Dor, trapped in the cognitive realm, is like a bulging sack about to burst. Sound familiar? And yes, the spiritual realm isn't location dependent in itself. But the spirit web's do have Connection to places, and are related to those places. If you organized that, you could say while it doesn't have location in it, it does correspond to locations. 

And @Calderis i like your model even better. Mine is really simple, but yours is more complex and also a more accurate deptiction of the realms. My main issue with the whole "light, filter and image" model is that it is really esoteric. The only thing I can relate it to us those little binoculars that you put disks in and rotate around to see different pictures. I prefer the three layers model because a lot more can be extrapolated from it. It's also a lot more tactile. Anybody can imagine 3 pieces of paper and a weight. While it's not entirely accurate, it is easy to understand, and helpful to draw conclusions from. 

From this conversation, I have one big question for Brandon: Does Aluminum have a spiritual aspect? If he says yes, I'm probably on the right track about aluminum. If he says no, then aluminum is just weird, and nothing more. 

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On 8/8/2017 at 7:39 AM, Flash said:

From this conversation, I have one big question for Brandon: Does Aluminum have a spiritual aspect?

Other conversations made me think of this. 

I think that Feruchemical Aluminum is evidence that it does have a spiritual aspect. The metal resists investiture, or acts inertly in most cases, but you can store in it. If it didn’t have a spiritual aspect, wouldn't the investiture enter and be negated? 

If aluminum works the way you think, I believe that Aluminum Feruchemy would only function as an identity dump, with no ability to tap. I don't think we've seen it tapped in the books, but there's been no mention of a metal store being inaccessible either so...??? 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Other conversations made me think of this. 

I think that Feruchemical Aluminum is evidence that it does have a spiritual aspect. The metal resists investiture, or acts inertly in most cases, but you can store in it. If it didn’t have a spiritual aspect, wouldn't the investiture enter and be negated? 

If aluminum works the way you think, I believe that Aluminum Feruchemy would only function as an identity dump, with no ability to tap. I don't think we've seen it tapped in the books, but there's been no mention of a metal store being inaccessible either so...??? 

Ok then. If it has a spiritual aspect, then why can't it be seen? Using investiture? 

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23 minutes ago, Flash said:

Ok then. If it has a spiritual aspect, then why can't it be seen? Using investiture? 

I'm not sure I understand the question. If it has a spiritual aspect, and it's nature deflects or absorbs investiture, how would it be seen? 

I imagine much like we attempt to "see" dark matter. Looking for it's interactions with other things as it can't be directly observed. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

I'm not sure I understand the question. If it has a spiritual aspect, and it's nature deflects or absorbs investiture, how would it be seen? 

I imagine much like we attempt to "see" dark matter. Looking for it's interactions with other things as it can't be directly observed. 

Aluminum really is weird. 

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Just now, Flash said:

Aluminum really is weird. 

Agreed 

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I am not sure that aluminum could not have a spiritual aspect, considering Brandon's worldbuilding. Because the Spiritual Realm contains the Essences of what an object is, I can only see two ways that aluminum could be worked in:

  1. Aluminum is somehow spiritually "locked" in that the application of Investiture cannot (in any way) change the metal. It remains the same, except for more mundane applications of change (such as melting it down, forging it (not in the tES way), etc.).
  2. Aluminum is somehow lack of essence, and because of that, the lack of everything (because without a spiritual essence, how could it have a cognitive or physical aspect?. Aluminum is somehow a physical thing, yes, but it is more the lack of things - emptiness - rather than anything concrete.
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34 minutes ago, Aether said:

I am not sure that aluminum could not have a spiritual aspect, considering Brandon's worldbuilding. Because the Spiritual Realm contains the Essences of what an object is, I can only see two ways that aluminum could be worked in:

  1. Aluminum is somehow spiritually "locked" in that the application of Investiture cannot (in any way) change the metal. It remains the same, except for more mundane applications of change (such as melting it down, forging it (not in the tES way), etc.).
  2. Aluminum is somehow lack of essence, and because of that, the lack of everything (because without a spiritual essence, how could it have a cognitive or physical aspect?. Aluminum is somehow a physical thing, yes, but it is more the lack of things - emptiness - rather than anything concrete.

Yeah I agree that aluminum is unlikely to have no spiritual aspect, or at least that that's not the reason for its effects. 

I've always been a fan of the waveform theory of investiture, focus and Intent. That basically investiture haa to be in the right waveform to have the effect you need, and that the waveform comes through a combination of the original investiture (Intent), with that form alerted by the focus (I've long wanted to do a Theory of Everything around this). Based on that, what I want to believe about aluminum is that it basically cancels out the waveform. If you want to use the musical analogy, it changes every tone of investiture, with its musical complexity, into a flat note. My problem with this is that burning aluminum doesn't just cancel out oor neutralise investiture, it actually destroys the other metals (I believe it converts them from matter to investiture). Which I find hard to reconcile. If I ever do reconcile that and some other issues, I'll probably write a Theory on it. 

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