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Hey, I killed an Eliminator! At least I did something. It wasn't of my own volition, but I killed an eliminator.

@Elbereth What powers did Orlok have? I'm just wondering how this turned into an Eliminator victory, since we had 3 villagers alive and 1 elim left. Sure, it would be unlikely, but it technically could have been possible. To win, did the village need to kill both Orlok and Stink, or did we only have to kill Orlok? Did Stink dying make the Skybreakers win automatically?

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26 minutes ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

Elbereth, I am so proud of you. I'm crying with Laughter here. This game has my loving Stamp of Approval.

Thank you. :P I appreciate it. 

13 minutes ago, Sart said:

Hey, I killed an Eliminator! At least I did something. It wasn't of my own volition, but I killed an eliminator.

@Elbereth What powers did Orlok have? I'm just wondering how this turned into an Eliminator victory, since we had 3 villagers alive and 1 elim left. Sure, it would be unlikely, but it technically could have been possible. To win, did the village need to kill both Orlok and Stink, or did we only have to kill Orlok? Did Stink dying make the Skybreakers win automatically?

Right. Here's essentially what happened: Orlok initally had two of each power (two passive lives, two protects, two Soothes, two Riots), which he determined very quickly (as in, about a minute after he got his PM) that that was OP and relinquished the two Soothes. In addition, Orlok only used one Riot until the last turn, and even then he could have won with one. This is a very good thing - we realised that it was too strong to give him two Riots sometime in the middle of the game. Lynching him would require a seven-vote lead above any other player, essentially, which is frankly impossible given the fear of a Truthless in the game. But since he never used that Riot (or never needed to - he used it the last turn merely to cause even more death), the game didn't end up broken in his favour as it could have. 

Anyway. Long answer (and it will be even longer when I go into why I balanced it that way) to a short question: he had enough vote manipulation and lives to guarantee that he would win with only three villagers left alive. 

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I did wonder if you were working on a finale, when the writeup was delayed :P

STINK was the perfect choice for a truthless, honestly... :lol:

I wasn't following this game terribly closely, at least after I got killed. But I guess that's that.

An interesting configuration, but an effective one, I think.

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Well then.

To shed some light on what happened, Stink told me Orlok claimed Truthless to him, and eventually Orlok claimed directly to me, asking for my help. He said he knew all of the eliminators and would reveal one because he needed to kill 5 players to complete his win con, and since the eliminators knew he was the Truthless, he could only win with the village. So, he told me Stink was an eliminator at the end of last Cycle, which made me go after him this Cycle.

I was worried something was up when I couldn't for the life of me figure out the eliminator team. Everyone seemed like they had good reasons to be good, and it turns out, they all were! Turns out, I should never play when there's secret roles involved. >>

So, even though I kind of hate them right now, congrats and well played to Stink and Orlok. :P

And to Elbereth...you're very cruel, y'know? :'(

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Just now, TheMightyLopen said:

Well then.

To shed some light on what happened, Stink told me Orlok claimed Truthless to him, and eventually Orlok claimed directly to me, asking for my help. He said he knew all of the eliminators and would reveal one because he needed to kill 5 players to complete his win con, and since the eliminators knew he was the Truthless, he could only win with the village. So, he told me Stink was an eliminator at the end of last Cycle, which made me go after him this Cycle.

I was worried something was up when I couldn't for the life of me figure out the eliminator team. Everyone seemed like they had good reasons to be good, and it turns out, they all were! Turns out, I should never play when there's secret roles involved. >>

So, even though I kind of hate them right now, congrats and well played to Stink and Orlok. :P

And to Elbereth...you're very cruel, y'know? :'(

I was thinking that making everyone vote on Stink was a bad idea, on the off chance that he was a Truthless. :(

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6 minutes ago, TheMightyLopen said:

Well then.

To shed some light on what happened, Stink told me Orlok claimed Truthless to him, and eventually Orlok claimed directly to me, asking for my help. He said he knew all of the eliminators and would reveal one because he needed to kill 5 players to complete his win con, and since the eliminators knew he was the Truthless, he could only win with the village. So, he told me Stink was an eliminator at the end of last Cycle, which made me go after him this Cycle.

I was worried something was up when I couldn't for the life of me figure out the eliminator team. Everyone seemed like they had good reasons to be good, and it turns out, they all were! Turns out, I should never play when there's secret roles involved. >>

Secret roles in and of themselves aren't that bad.  The problem arises when either the existence of secret roles is hidden (not the case here), or when the secret roles substantially change the fundamental nature of the game (as here, where they changed it from "normal number of elims" to "few elims with powerful roles that also synergize with each other)".

Edited by Yitzi2
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But El, you said this wasn't a Joe game...D: 

I knew something was fishy they way only village were getting lynched, though I did consider the possibility of no elims, I didn't consider really less elims to be a thing.

Well played, elims. Good game, everyone! 

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@Elbereth*slow clap

You actually storming did it.

@The Young Bard @Amanuensis

smh hahahaha

I didn't suspect Orlok mm, and STINK did little to hide *shrugs, not to miffed at this loss, smh

El you troll. Yes what Stick said haha, I'll remember this one, I'm struggling to remember my other games :( If only I had time to ge reread them (lol too bad LG37 is starting soon)

Just wish I invested more in this game.

Twas fun, well played elims.

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"Dalan, I need you to run these messages to Brightness Kelani," Captain Favan said. "Do you know where those are?"

Dalan nodded. "The northwestern section of camp, two rows from the mess hall."

"Good. Here's the message. Once you're done sending this, come back. We have a lot of messages coming from Brightness Kenara's squad," Favan said.

Dalan took the message and looked over it. Indecipherable lines stared back at him. For the millionth time, he wished that he could read, but all he recognized was a few letters here and there. Malnar was trying to teach him, but Dalan was a terrible student. It didn't help that they were both so busy.

"Brightness Kelani does death notifications, doesn't she?" Dalan asked. A flash of worry shot through him. "What happened?"

Captain Favan eyed Dalan. "Please, I won't blab. My husband --"

Favan grimaced. "It's nothing. Go do your job."

Hopefully it was just that. Favan had a reputation for being tight-fisted with information for no good reason, so it didn't have to be anything big. Right? Dalan tucked the message under his arm and took off in a run. He loped towards the northwestern section of camp at a steady pace, the familiar route calming his farther-fetched worries. Straight here, left at the massive shalebark-encrusted boulder, past the mess hall, left here, right there. When he passed the northern barracks, a few soldiers waved at Dalan. He smiled and waved back. The soldiers in the northern section of the camp were generally friendlier than others. Good looking, too.

Once he saw the tent of the bereavement offices, he slowed down to a walk.

"Brightness Kelani?" Dalan called. "I have a message for you."

A pause. "Come in," said a distracted-sounding woman.

Dalan entered the tent and handed Brightness Kelani the message. She looked rather grim, though whether that was how she normally looked or just how she looked today, Dalan couldn't tell. Death notification was one of the safer jobs in Dalinar's warcamp, but it was also one of the worst. 

Kelani took the message and read it. Her shoulders slumped a little.

"Do you need me to take a message?" Dalan asked, suddenly uncomfortable. Had someone died after all? Oh, storms... Not Malnar, please not Malnar...

"Stay," Kelani said, a little sharply. "Please." She turned to a filing cabinet and rifled through drawers. After a few minutes, she pulled out a file. Dalan watched with increasing desperation as her eyes flicked back and forth. Please not Malnar, please not Malnar, please not Malnar...

She sighed. "Do you know where Dalan's tent is?" asked Kelani.

"That's me," Dalan said.

"Are you the husband of Malnar?" Kelani asked.

"Yes," Dalan said. Stormfather, no no nonono.

"The secretary of the army has asked me to express his deep regret that your husband, the archer Malnar, died at 10 AM today," Kelani said.

"No," Dalan said. He brought his hand up to his mouth. "He's dead-- no. He said he'd be back in the morning, he, he can't be dead."

 "Cause of death at this time is still under investigation," Kelani said. "The secretary extends his deepest regrets to you for your loss."

The world spun around him. Dalan staggered, but Kelani caught him and carried him to a chair, where she sat him down.

"He said that he'd never leave me," Dalan mumbled. His voice shook. "He said our vows were as good as any and he'd never leave me for as long as he lived."

Kelani nodded. "He left you something in case anything happened," she said. She took out a piece of paper with two pressed rockbuds attached to it. Alethi vinebud for eternal love and milky rockbud for regret.

Dalan broke down sobbing. With one arm, he held onto the arms of the chair for support, and with the other arm, he took the proffered paper. Stormfather, what was the worth of it all? They'd gone through so much, judgement, disownment, poverty, the army, and now...He'd never see Malnar again. Never walk out out of camp and compete to identify the most plants. Never talk to Malnar about anything again, about how one day they'd travel around the world and see the flora of Azir and Jah Keved and Shinovar and all the other places. Stormfather, what he'd give even to listen to Malnar whine about the food in the mess halls one more time... He'd always said that the army would be the death of him. He'd been right.

Snot ran down his nose. Dalan wiped it away with his hand. Kelani offered him a handkerchief, which he took.

"How did this happen?" Dalan choked out.

"We're still investigating," Kelani said. "I wish I could say more, but I don't know anything else."

"Malnar wasn't -- he wasn't careless. Kelek's breath, he wouldn't have gotten himself killed for no reason..."

Someone else entered the tent. "Message for Brightness Kelani."

Kelani stood up. A moment later, she swore and walked out of the tent. Leaving Dalan all alone.

Dalan hugged the paper to his chest, crying.

Edited by Arraenae
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...

Well, I didn't exactly see this coming.

But there's a reason I didn't vote on STINK.

Not that it matters at this point. :P Well played, guys.  I can't say I had any idea Orlok was evil.  Good game.

I don't know why I listened to STINK in the first place. :P 

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38 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

I was right! I knew it I knew it! There was no way STINK acting like that was normal the truthless is an eliminator! I was right! 


I mean we lost but I was right

Naahhh... it's really normal behavior for Stink. In previous game he also all time was saying something like " You wrong; I'm right; he\she not elim; he\she is elim".

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Orlok, Orlok, Orlok.  And Stink, Stink, Stink.  How did I not guess?  Oh yeah, wasn't expecting the Skybreakers to be just two people but with crazy skills.  Well done, ya'll, well done.  That'll teach us to make assumptions about the size of the Elim team and their capabilities. :P

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7 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

Secret roles in and of themselves aren't that bad.  The problem arises when either the existence of secret roles is hidden (not the case here), or when the secret roles substantially change the fundamental nature of the game (as here, where they changed it from "normal number of elims" to "few elims with powerful roles that also synergize with each other)".

This way of thinking - that there is a "normal" number of elims - and its natural follow-up - that there is a classic distribution that requires one (or two) "experienced" players, 1-2 new players, and the rest "normal" - is exactly what makes GM trolls like this so effective. Why should player number or activity in the forum be any less of something a GM can mess with than role distribution for the elim team? (A hint: it's not.)

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1 hour ago, little wilson said:

This way of thinking - that there is a "normal" number of elims - and its natural follow-up - that there is a classic distribution that requires one (or two) "experienced" players, 1-2 new players, and the rest "normal" - is exactly what makes GM trolls like this so effective. Why should player number or activity in the forum be any less of something a GM can mess with than role distribution for the elim team? (A hint: it's not.)

It is indeed exactly the same; a highly unusual role distribution for the elims (among normal roles) that made the game play differently would have had the same trolly effect even if there had been a PAFO about elim role distribution.

The basic idea is as follows: What matters isn't whether it's an effect of player number, activity, roles, unexpected rules, or any other wacky thing the GM comes up with.  What determines the effect of this sort of unexpected situation on the players' fun is (a) whether the players feel that the GM planned for it, (b) whether there were hints in the OP that it might occur, and (c) how much it changes the way that the game plays.  (How much they change the game's balance is also a factor, but a much more minor one.)  In this one, (a) and (b) were done well, but it changed the character of the game so much that it still felt trollish.  (Probably even more so than a neutral Truthless as a secret role would have, and that's classic bastard mod, to use mafiascum terminology.)

Edited by Yitzi2
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And I never got to be a dustbringer. 

Future note, I always play somewhat impulsively. If I don't, you should be suspicious of me. But sometimes I'll say stuff that in the moment I know isn't squeaky clean, but I don't know how to fix it. I'm still working on that. But that is my playstyle. 

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Wow. That. Ugh.

An elim truthless?

I figured that the truthless had contact with the elims.

An elim truthless?

Uuugh...

So @Elbereth if the truthless was unaligned, and was lynched would the game end?

I thought that was the case and early on in the game I was really hoping the truthless would reveal and then get only one vote on them, so they died and won, and we did not have to worry about them.

Oh well.

An elim truthless?

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11 hours ago, TheMightyLopen said:

And to Elbereth...you're very cruel, y'know? :'(

I am not at all sorry. :P 

11 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

Secret roles in and of themselves aren't that bad.  The problem arises when either the existence of secret roles is hidden (not the case here), or when the secret roles substantially change the fundamental nature of the game (as here, where they changed it from "normal number of elims" to "few elims with powerful roles that also synergize with each other)".

 

1 hour ago, Yitzi2 said:

It is indeed exactly the same; a highly unusual role distribution for the elims (among normal roles) that made the game play differently would have had the same trolly effect even if there had been a PAFO about elim role distribution.

The basic idea is as follows: What matters isn't whether it's an effect of player number, activity, roles, unexpected rules, or any other wacky thing the GM comes up with.  What determines the effect of this sort of unexpected situation on the players' fun is (a) whether the players feel that the GM planned for it, (b) whether there were hints in the OP that it might occur, and (c) how much it changes the way that the game plays.  (How much they change the game's balance is also a factor, but a much more minor one.)  In this one, (a) and (b) were done well, but it changed the character of the game so much that it still felt trollish.  (Probably even more so than a neutral Truthless as a secret role would have, and that's classic bastard mod, to use mafiascum terminology.)

Sorry, I don't understand why you think that's a bad thing that the way the game played changed from a normal game. Could you explain that? 

11 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

But El, you said this wasn't a Joe game...D: 

When did I say that? :P 

11 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

El you troll. Yes what Stick said haha, I'll remember this one, I'm struggling to remember my other games :( If only I had time to ge reread them (lol too bad LG37 is starting soon)

That's a lot of why I did it, and why I'm pleased with how the game turned out - this is going to be a game to remember. And we always need more of those. 

Post-game thoughts very shortly, but in another post so that they're separated from these responses. 

 

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Post-Game Thoughts

Balance 

There were two balance issues with this game: Orlok’s powers and Lopen. Fortunately, neither ended up coming into play. 

1. I’ve already laid out what happened with Orlok’s powers, but here I’ll explain in greater detail, and explain why I balanced it as I did. 

In order to figure out what he should have, I consulted Alv, Wilson, Joe, and discussed it a great deal with Orlok. The primary model I had to go on, of course, was MR20, in which Mage was a solitary eliminator. The difficulty lies in the fact that Mage was very overpowered, and I had to determine how much of his powers were necessary, and how much was superfluous. At the same time, there were a number of other factors in play: Orlok’s a far more high-profile player who can’t simply hang back in the shadows, because people would notice. He had to (or we thought he had to) lead several mislynches in a row in order to succeed. On the other hand, there would be a Skybreaker Truthless, which could help immensely, depending on how many people could be persuaded to vote on them. (It was going to be Aman or Lopen for a while, though, which is something of a disadvantage to the Truthless’ power.) But there aren’t any other kills in the game - so no villagers taking out villagers. And so on, and so on. 

The summary that Orlok eventually came up with fits it best, I think: he was a Serial Killer without an eliminator team to distract the village from him. 

As such, I gave him double powers of everything - two passive lives (although one of those would obviously only prolong the game another turn, since no villager would have two passive lives) brings the number of lives on the team up to 4, which is about the same as a normal eliminator team. Two protects allows him to protect himself every cycle rather than every other, but is only useful for WGGs (on himself, Stink, or anyone else he chose) and protecting from the Truthless attack. And then, since there’s only one of him, one Truthless who will die at some point, and 22 villagers, I gave him vote manipulation to get him closer to the voting power of a normal team. 

Unfortunately, that part I didn’t calculate properly. Two Riots and two Soothes is way too much. If there are eight villagers left in the game and all vote on him, here’s what happens: 
Orlok (8): 12345678
1 (1): Orlok
Two soothes and two riots goes like this:
Orlok (4): 1234
1 (3): Orlok, 56

So even with eight he’s barely outvoted. Seven ties, and six wins. If he has both lives left, and there are no other Elsecallers or vote manip left in the game? The game ends when there are eight villagers left. That’s way too much power. 

Orlok actually did the math, when he got his PM, and realised it was broken. The two Soothes were immediately taken out of the game, letting him outvote four and win with six. Which is far more similar to a normal team, and more plausible. 

What we realised later in the game is that two Riots is also somewhat broken - a Riot and a Soothe would have been better. Two Riots goes like this:
Orlok (6): 123456
1 (2): Orlok, Stink
to
Orlok (4): 1234
1 (4): Orlok, Stink, 56

You need seven votes on him to be sure of lynching him. And that’s not total - because if anyone else in this scenario is voting on one, Orlok doesn’t get lynched. It’s a seven vote lead above the number of village votes on any other player. That’s absolutely ridiculous and probably impossible, given the fear of the Truthless in the game. 

Happily, though, the game wasn’t functionally broken because of this. While that is a broken setup, Orlok deliberately didn’t use his second riot until the last turn because he’d realised it was broken and wanted to ensure that the game was balanced as best he could. Even if he hadn’t, he would have won (which was his intention) - rather than seven villagers dying to the Truthless, it would’ve been six. Orlok’s kill makes seven total village deaths, leaving four villagers alive. Even if all vote on him (and he can’t stop that lynch), he takes a hit to his passive lives while killing one and bringing it 3-1. He does the same thing the next cycle, and with one Riot he wins against two players. (Not to mention that two of the players left alive were inactive anyway.)

Therefore, in that aspect I’m satisfied with how the game played out. Two Riots for the elims is broken, but this game didn’t use them, and thus played out in a balanced way. 

2. Lopen. The problem with this one is less complicated to explain, and also didn’t come into play, but could have: 

Lopen was an Elsecaller. This is a massive disadvantage to Orlok for two reasons: 

First, it somewhat clears Lopen for a turn. Not completely, obviously, but he was at least soft-cleared. Given that he and Orlok are pretty unquestionably the two most high-profile players in the game, that’s very, very dangerous for Orlok. Normally I wouldn’t worry about this for a team, but unlike most teams, this one could not afford to take a hit. Because there were only two of them. 

Secondly, it takes away a great deal of the use of his passive lives. Rather than taking two hits, he only needs one to be fairly confirmed as an eliminator. Because while it’s somewhat unlikely that Lopen and Orlok are both villagers, from a balance perspective it’s essentially impossible that both of them are village Elsecallers. If Orlok had taken a hit, the most he could’ve done is tried to take Lopen down first, and been lynched constantly once Lopen was revealed as good. 

These ended up not being an issue. Orlok didn’t take a hit, and Lopen wasn’t cleared from the hit he took, and Orlok ended up just manipulating Lopen instead. 


Other

Distribution - Orlok was an eliminator because he helped me come up with this game and refine it, and so knew the twist of only having one eliminator. Stink was an eliminator because it needed to be someone who synergised well with Orlok, and while Lopen was a consideration for a time, I’m very glad that we went with Stink. 

Writeups - I really liked that I did them in present tense (and wanted to do them in first person as well, but decided that would be too telling), but it was annoyingly hard. I also wish I could’ve included more studying-so-and-so-Order in them, but sadly didn’t end up doing so. 

Confirmed Good Is Not Confirmed Right - this got discussed some this game, and I think my thoughts on this are worth bringing up again. Not only are confirmed good players not confirmed right, but you are also confirmed good. If a player has died and turned out to be good, then their opinions were likely not meant to deceive you. But I’ve never understood why people put those opinions over their own, since every villager is equally confirmed good to themselves. 


Commendations

To Orlok and Stink: they made a magnificent plan together. I suggest going to the eliminator doc and reading it (I believe it’s in Cycle 5), but it’s worth pointing out here too. It’s a perfect example of why they were on a team together: Orlok thought of Stink suggesting that he’s Truthless to the thread. It was Stink’s idea to say that Orlok had claimed it rather than merely suggest it, and Orlok’s to do so specifically to Lopen rather than the entire thread. That claim essentially ensured Stink’s death: if Lopen believed Stink, he would go to Orlok (who was claiming to be neutral but in contact with the elim team), and Orlok would give him Stink. (The other option is if Lopen didn’t believe Stink - in which case he’s much more suspicious of Stink anyway.) Lopen and Orlok working together to lynch Stink was practically guaranteed to get a lot of votes. 

Stink: For playing brilliantly as an eliminator pretending to be Truthless, while actually being a Truthless eliminator. 
Also, to the people who passed Stink off as village on the logic that “he always does this”: you realise that you were essentially saying that non-alignment indicative things meant that he was village, correct? 

Orlok: For strategising, remaining mostly out of suspicion despite being in the spotlight alone, and for manipulating Lopen. (In particular, for the efforts to tell Lopen that his best move was actually to out the plan to the thread and have no village deaths for a turn. Unfortunately, Lopen is slightly too kind.)
Also, for his strategy in eliminator kills: he made a list of players who were recently returned, new, or had died early in games recently. Everyone not in one of those three categories were the players crossed off first. I greatly approve of this kind of strategy. Also, on a similar note, not killing to stifle discussion. That made this QF much more active than usual for a significantly longer time, and it was wonderful. 

Jondesu: For being one of the only sensible voices in the last cycle. You refused to vote on Stink because the lynch was ridiculously suspicious, and very rightly. 

Lopen: For doing really well with the information you had. Sadly, your information was somewhat flawed. :P But congrats anyway for being suspicious of Orlok. And also, not being evil! For once! :P


Docs
The Halls of Judgement
The End of Days
Master Spreadsheet

I hope you all enjoyed this game, and I look forward to seeing you in the next one. :) 

Edited by Elbereth
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