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Ok so here are my thoughts after rereading the thread. 

The way Eternum hopped on to vote me sets off so many alarm bells. However I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt, I don't want to lynch a brand new player his first cycle, even if he is an elim. I was an elim my very first game, so I can sympathize if he's evil. If he's still suspicious in a few cycles or so, I'll be more aggressive towards him. 

Stink is feeling lonely. Here's a vote stink to let you know you aren't forgotten. (I will retract that vote lol)

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19 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

You bring up interesting points, Rae, but could you elaborate on this?

Why specifically me?

Wilson was an elsecaller? Huh? 

It's somehing I've seen MU players doing but not something I think I can do. :P Just something I noted.

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Well. Some general comments on people:

 

I do think Ecthelion's behavior was marginally suspect (after all, to my knowledge I am the first one to have pointed it out).

But I don't believe it was the most suspicious behavior so far in this game. And I think Ecth's explanation seems reasonable, for now.

I don't think I support lynching Ecthelion right now. But he's worth keeping an eye on, definitely.

 

Not sure what to think of Flash yet. I agree that he seemed a little on the defensive side. That seems reasonably lynchworthy. Almighty knows we've had worse reasons for D1 lynches.

 

My primary suspicion is still on Stick for now though, and with it my vote. The comment I initially cited, as well as how he responded to my vote, both seemed off.

 

Oh also, @winter devotion, I should like to encourage you to cast a vote. You have repeatedly voiced suspicion about players, so your reluctance to vote certainly isn't for lack of a good solid hunch. Are you trying to avoid drawing attention to yourself?

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24 minutes ago, Yitzi2 said:

This is a good point.  Ok, so then it's definitely just El making things interesting.

Wilson never plays QFs. :P But it's a bit of a tradition to kill non-players for the first writeup. And Kenara was a perfect squadleader, and I wanted to kill her. So I asked Wilson if I could. :) 

She's an Elsecaller because this is at least the third time Kenara's died (LG20 and MR... 4, I think) and she seems to manage to come back just fine. Elsecaller works pretty well for that, hmm? 

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1 minute ago, Drake Marshall said:

Well. Some general comments on people:

 

I do think Ecthelion's behavior was marginally suspect (after all, to my knowledge I am the first one to have pointed it out).

But I don't believe it was the most suspicious behavior so far in this game. And I think Ecth's explanation seems reasonable, for now.

I don't think I support lynching Ecthelion right now. But he's worth keeping an eye on, definitely.

 

Not sure what to think of Flash yet. I agree that he seemed a little on the defensive side. That seems reasonably lynchworthy. Almighty knows we've had worse reasons for D1 lynches.

 

My primary suspicion is still on Stick for now though, and with it my vote. The comment I initially cited, as well as how he responded to my vote, both seemed off.

 

Oh also, @winter devotion, I should like to encourage you to cast a vote. You have repeatedly voiced suspicion about players, so your reluctance to vote certainly isn't for lack of a good solid hunch. Are you trying to avoid drawing attention to yourself?

 Me, avoid drawing attention to myself. 

Did you miss the giant post where I purposefully attempted to draw attention to myself and everyone ignores it. 

(probably because I was an idiot and missed the fact there isn't a rolescan)

Anyway, what's the tally? I'll vote after seeing that. 

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Vote Talley: 

Jondesu (1) Elenion

Flash (3) PK, Eternum, Arranae

Megasif (1) Jondesu

Stick (2) Arinian, Drake

Ecth (5) stink, roadrunner, megasif, stick, flash

I might have something wrong in there. And stink ecth  . Out of self preservation. 

I have already explained myself drake. I had a late night and was a bit testy this morning. But since Hawaii day at work, I'm feeling a lot better :D

Edited by Flash
Found the mistake (s)!
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I would vote Ecth, but I'm wondering-- what if Ecth has an actual role and was just lying because they didn't want to give it away. I'm torn. I'm suspicious of Rae, but nobody's voting for them so it's not like that'll do anything.  

You know what storm this Ecth

if they pop on and give another roleclaim because I doubt they're vanilla, then I'll try to remove it

but I'll be AFK for a bit

Edited by winter devotion
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18 hours ago, Megasif said:

Got village. Don't have many thoughts yet. Except that an elim has likely posted already.

While we're on the topic, we haven't seen your thoughts or role yet. Hmm.

@Megasif, I've already called out your point about believing an eliminator had already posted. Further thoughts: I don't see why this is advantageous at all from a villager's perspective, but as an eliminator it creates an IKYK when you die. It would force us to consider whether you knew that there was one above you, and were trying to dissuade us from considering players posting before this because clearly you wouldn't say it if there were, or whether you knew there weren't and wanted us to doubt that.

Would you also please explain why you asked Rae her role? Asking for alignment doesn't help the eliminators, and gives the village useful information on how people answer the question - do they avoid answering, or act in an overzealous manner? Asking for roles on the other hand doesn't really help the village - we don't need to know who the soothers are, for instance, but helps the eliminators pick targets. Even if she doesn't have a role, you narrow the search space for the eliminators.

18 hours ago, Arraenae said:

Okay. I got village (again, I havn't been an elim for maybe a year or so). Currently I'm waiting for more thread discussion to pop up. I'm kind of bored, so I'm prodding people to talk. I saw someone asking similar questions in the MU game, and I figured that it's better than awkward silence where everyone is waiting for others to speak so we have something to analyze.

You're not getting my role out of me this early. :P

EDIT: @Orlok Tsubodai, I see you viewing the thread too. You said you wanted discussion, so what are your thoughts, alignment, and feelings about getting that alignment?

EDIT 2: @Paranoid King, you're here, so why don't you do that too?

@Arraenae, looking back on this, are you claiming to have a role? I don't see why you'd do this as a villager, but might potentially feel safer doing so as an eliminator.

17 hours ago, Ecthelion III said:

Rae outed me for hanging out on Discord :P She asked me my alignment, which is Squire, though of course I'd say that whichever I was. Also how I feel about it...pretty good, I guess?

*ba dum tss

This post has been castigated a lot, with a great many players questioning why @Ecthelion III went to the effort of including the village alignment name. Personally, I don't think that this is too suspicious, and it reminds me too much of the Ripple debacle. It's just as important for villagers to make it obvious that they're village as it is for people to try to find actual eliminators - every cleared villager makes the list of potential eliminators smaller. It's entirely possible that Ecthelion was anxious to make it obvious that he was a villager,or indeed, that he merely felt like putting the faction name in because he was engaged in the setting.

Ecthelion has also died early in a number of games recently. Having had this happen to myself (I had a string of ~7 consecutive games in which I died C1-2), I know it's not fun, and don't think we should have Ecthelion die early again over something as small as this.

17 hours ago, Megasif said:

Well, I'm not certain but since it's an elim team we're talking about, I'd think it would be an idea for at least one to make an appearance early and try to get on the village side.

I could be totally wrong. I haven't played enough yet (3rd game). Just a thought that occurred so I mentioned it.

And I'm guessing no one's going to say they're an elim right :(

  Reveal hidden contents

Okay. I got village (again, I havn't been an elim for maybe a year or so). Currently I'm waiting for more thread discussion to pop up. I'm kind of bored, so I'm prodding people to talk. I saw someone asking similar questions in the MU game, and I figured that it's better than awkward silence where everyone is waiting for others to speak so we have something to analyze.

That makes sense.

 

Messed up on the editing cuz phone.

@Megasif, time zones, and the fact that it was very early morning for Europe, and late at night for out of the Americas mean that most of an aliminator team wouldn't have seen the game go up. Are you really suggesting that all the eliminators were online, and decided that one of them should post early? Why wouldn't they all try to get on the village side, when they came online?

17 hours ago, The Young Bard said:

If it's not obvious already, I'm trying to do as much of my posts in RP as possible. Then again, I've said that before, and have failed miserably. If past records are anything to go by, I'll probably swap to analysis on posts once I actually have anything to go on, because RP'ing reasons why someone should be lynched is just hard.

Secondly, I'm a villager, before anyone asks, though frankly I don't see the point in asking/answering, because I can't think of a reason, especially on Day 1, why people wouldn't claim village.

Thirdly, the Truthless. I can't think of a way Melonin would know theres one among us, so I'll post about them here: We need to be wary for the Truthless, but not so wary that we allow ourselves to avoid lynches until the mafia have overtaken us. For that reason, I'm advocating that we still try to lynch someone every day, including Day 1, despite the Truthless, because even false lynches provide us information - who voted for them, who nearly got lynched but didn't due to a last minute voteswap, etc., is generally the best and most accurate way of catching Eliminators that I've found, at least for those people like me that have horrible gut reads.

I'd love to hear all your comments on my advice, and why you agree/disagree, or just where you need more explanation or convincing. If my attempt at RP'ing recommendations was just confusing, here's a plain text version:

Stonewards, Dustbringers: We need to know you exist, but claiming to somebody in particular is probably a bad idea at this stage. I recommend you do your manipulations in such a manner this cycle that is does not influence the result of the lynch, so we know you exist and can offer recommendations in thread without wasting our time. I'll do a vote tally shortly before the cycle ends and compare it with after so we know how many of both of you there are.
Lightweavers: Just put in an action every cycle. It can't hurt, and is very likely to help the more actions you put in. Whatever you do, please don't go inactive.

Reads: Nothing yet. I don't understand why PK, Roadrunner and Eternum are suspicious of Flash - to me, the Shardblade striking Kenara down faster than the eye could see was just a way of preventing us from finding a Skybreaker straight out. I think PK meant it as a joke, but I'm slightly suspicious of Roadrunner and Eternum. Roadrunner already has a vote on him - though I might swap my vote at the end of the cycle if he hasn't responded or if I don't see anything else I find suspicious, and with Eternum, I'm nowhere close enough to suspicious to knock him out on Day 1 of his first game, though. :P For now, I'm not going to vote - mainly because I've RP'ed already and I want to get this stuff out before I make another RP on Melonin voting, but I intend to vote before I go to bed tonight (so in the next 5-6 hours or so - it will be there before all the Americans get up tomorrow morning, anyway.)

EDIT: Gah. I forgot the thing I was perhaps most excited to talk about - whether El is trolling us with secret roles and alignments. I have been getting weird vibes from this game, even when she said there weren't any secret roles/alignments in the game. I'd considered all the ways she could be trolling us with the Truthless - she could have multiple Truthless in the game, or none, and just watch how we react to a phantom threat. Strangely, I'm getting the same vibe from her swap from a "There are no secret roles/alignments" to a PAFO - my read on it right now is that she might be trying to make us all ridiculously paranoid in this game without good reason. Joe did something similar in his QF a while back - made everyone think there was *something* going on, when there really wasn't. Then again, there might be - I'm not saying we should rule out any options, just consider the possibility. So, my recommendation with El's PAFO is to be cautious, but not to the extent where it impairs your judgement, if possible.

@The Young Bard, why do you think knowing the number of each role helps the village? They're almost certainly all in the game, so you can give advice regardless. Asking for the number seems like a very eliminator thing to do, ascertaining the degree of safety they need in the end game, etc.

16 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

Wew two deaths.
Don't know how I feel about that, I'm sort of out of everything, don't know what is going on...also haven't played SE in a while so forgive me for being a bit lost, lets see how long it takes for me to get into my gears.

I'm kinda dissapointed with my role :P Just a New Recruit ;)

@Darkness Ascendant, if you hadn't already worked it out, the two kills are flavour only. El killed Hael because Alv wanted his head, and I imagine Kenara had been the planned death at the start of the game, to have the setting be the chaos.

I'd also ask why you thought claiming as a roleless was a good idea? If you're claiming honestly, you make it much easier for the eliminators to find the actual roles that they need to deal with.

12 hours ago, Jondesu said:

As usual, the QF shows it’s tendency to gather tons of posts before I even see the thread. 

Who first asked someone to post their alignment, or posted it without being asked? I couldn’t quite tell the timeline, but that’s pointless for the village and can be helpful to the Elims, so it makes me suspicious. I’ve asked people in PMs before, but only jokingly and never telling them to post it in the thread.

My vote will depend on what I can find out about that. Also, I haven’t even opened my role PM so I couldn’t asked the question even if I wanted. :P

I disagree that its pointless for the village - as I set out above, it puts players on the spot - particularly articulating how they feel about their alignment. Eliminators will have to fabricate an answer, which provides opportunities for slipping up.

12 hours ago, STINK said:

This statement looks wrong, because the discussion it makes isn't a good discussion. 

First premise:

All discussions are not good discussions.

No one should disagree with that, right? If I talk about the qualities of potatoes while you all talk about the game, my discussion is clearly less useful.

Now we look at what discussion has spawned from Rae's question. Was it that maybe the people answering Village maybe aren't village? Of course not, everyone's gonna answer that way no matter what. 

Instead, the discussion leads to whether Rae is good or not, and if someone asks her that then the cycle goes on forever. Discussion from this question is pretty bad for the village, yes, but I do see some use in it.

As a villager, asking this question leads to no worries because you're village and what can go wrong. However, if you're an elim then you will worry about people discussing your alignment back at you, and probably won't ask the question.

So my second premise that I'll likely hold on to for the rest of the game is:

Rae is town.

And I'm likely gonna suspect those who all just said Rae is sus for asking. LogicSTINK out.

I don't disagree with your belief that Rae is town, or that not all discussion is good discussion, but don't think that Rae's actions were necessarily unhelpful. It would have been much better if she had asked follow up questions exploring players answers, increasing the pressure on them, but I don't think the answer to the question rae puts is always NAI.

11 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Mostly because it causes confusion and chaos, which Elims can thrive on.  They can hide more easily when everyone's asserting their alignment and role.  Plus, as noted, they usually really want to find out people's roles.

I agree that it sounds like Rae probably meant it as harmless fun, but Sif strikes me as suspicious by adding to it.

@Jondesu, Megasif didn't really add to it, so much as ask Rae the question she was asking everyone else, which I think is entirely fair. I'd been planing on it myself before Megasif did so. 

9 hours ago, winter devotion said:

But let's consider the chance I'm lying and that I actually am Truthless. This is a suspicious for a Truthless because people will tend not to vote for someone they think will get them killed. Therefor, I could be an eliminator and using reverse pyschology to get people to not vote for me. However that in turn is obvious and could lead me to being rolescanned.

The fact I am a Truthless would be revealed, unless, of course, the role scan volunteer was an Eliminator as well or just lying. Anyone who reveals their status as a role scanner is also at risk for being eliminator killed. An eliminator would not want to kill someone they suspect of being Truthless because that means villagers won't have a chance for being mass killed by a wrong lynch. The Truthless in this case being hypothetically me.

How do we know the Truthless isn't also an eliminator? We don't. Ergo, both me being an eliminator and Truthless could be true. But would an eliminator voluntarily bring suspicion upon themself this early in the game? 

Now for something entirely different. What if there is a secret survival role? I highly doubt there is, but let's assume I am this survival role for the sake of this discussion. Faking a Truthless reveal and then taking it back would value me, as villagers would be cautious to lynch me in case I wasn't lying the first time, and for the same reason as before, Eliminators would hesitate. If they have a role scan, they could use it on me and kill someone else this turn. 

But if I am a survival role, which they would find out by role scanning me, they have nothing to lose by PMing me and making me a de facto eliminator. I wouldn't want to tell the thread who they were because they would kill me the next cycle as revenge, and there's usually a few left surviving villagers when the eliminators win. 

The way to confirm I'm not any of these things (Eliminator, Survival, or Truthless) is by A. Rolescanning me B. Lynching me or C. Trusting me when I say I'm a vanilla villager. A means a role scanner reveals themself or risks having multiple people waste their turns on scanning me. Or a role scanner PMs me telling me what they are. However if I am an Eliminator, I would just use that to kill them. They could tell someone else what they're doing and use that as insurance in case I am an Eliminator and kill them, but they could accidentally PM an actual eliminator. They could scan me and then tell the thread what they did the next day, but that risks multiple people scanning the same person.

B. I clearly don't want to be lynched and the chance of me being a Truthless makes it rather risky. Go ahead and lynch me, but anyone who votes on me is risking it. Is the 1/4 chance I'm an Eliminator worth it? If I was a secret survival role, would I be encouraging this? 

C. Trusting me is stupid. This is Sanderson Elimination. 

I'd say lynching me as of now is a risky choice at best, but having laid out most of what I can figure about my own position-- feel free to add your own two cents-- you can chose.

 

Edit: @Paranoid King What would be the merit of concealing the fact I'm Truthless after admitting it? I don't have a little brother (Outside of injokes with a certain group of friends), and unfortunately my one older sibling is not interested in Brandon Sanderson. 

The first thing to highlight, @winter devotion, is that there isn't a role scanner in the game. I think this lack of knowledge alone is the most interesting part of the post. Had you actually been an eliminator or Truthless trying a gambit, I think you'd have checked the rules more carefully. 

Believing you to be a regular villager, I'm not sure why you consider this post helpful. You've said that it was a gambit to keep yourself alive, as I recall. I'd question why you think this is worth generating a great deal of noise in the thread, obscuring useful discussion. SE is a team game. As villagers, sometimes the best move to make is to allow yourself to be lynched, as the information revealed from it clears or casts suspicion on players. Keeping yourself alive to the detriment of the village, as a villager, really isn't helpful.

8 hours ago, Elithanathile said:

Well stuff seems to have happened, hasn't it.

Also waitwhat? Kasana died by a shardblade? Well I missed that part then. I thought she'd gotten killed by some kind of assassin spren or poison or something. I knew her eyes turned smoky, but I figured if something had severed her bond to her shardplate, like a voidspren or the black orb thingy, it would do that. So it was an actual shardblade?

Maybe Daerin (First dead guy's name, whatever it was,) isn't actually dead, and when she tried to help him he stabbed her from a position nobody could see? Can we do an autopsy or check on Daerin's body?

Minorly suspicious of Winter, STINK, and Ecthelion. No voting for now though.

@Elithanathile, would you care to explain why you're suspicious of Winter, Stink, and Ecthelion. Knowing your reads is useful, but knowing the thought process behind your reads helps us both clear you as a villager, and consider whether your suspicions merit supporting.

7 hours ago, Megasif said:

So went back and checked and the main reason I was suspicious of Eternum actually doesn't exist. I think I misread their post. And the other reason might be because they were suspicious of me. Still not totally cleared for me but not as suspicious atm.

This post makes me lean village on @Megasif. It's certainly possible that as an eliminator he made a mistake about the player he was trying to cast suspicion on, but in my experience eliminators tend to be more careful, and this looks to me like progression of thought, which we're unlikely to see from an eliminator. 

6 hours ago, winter devotion said:

I agree with that analysis and I too get that read, but I'm not gonna vote for real just yet. 

@winter devotion, why won't you vote? Expressing a suspicion and not following it through always strikes me as trying to encourage a lynch without taking the blame when it comes out as a villager.

6 hours ago, Elenion said:

OK guys I'm here. Tired, but here.

First off, I'm reading slightly village on Rae's alignment questions. I'm reading slightly evil on Ecth's response, but he sent me a PM about that that's making me read less evil than I was before.

Right now I'm not going to make a role-claim, and I'm not planning on claiming at all this game, because it would either reveal me to have a good role or narrow the field for who has the good roles.

@Elenion, I'd Ike to thank you for speaking sense about role claims, and ask you why you think Ecthelion's response is evil? You know him well, clearly, and have also played a lot of games with him. Do you think it's really an action likely to come from an eliminator?

5 hours ago, winter devotion said:

Well, analysis is the wrong word but that feels like something I'd do as evil too. The nudge nudge, of course I'm not though. I'm not gonna vote for you cause of that, but I'm keeping an eye on you. :)

@winter devotion, I'd also call out that it seems like you were looking for something to jump onto very quickly, seeming supportive without exposing yourself through any thoughts. I'm still leaning village on you, due to your slip up in the attempted IKYK, but would definitely like you to justify and back your positions more thoroughly in the future. 

5 hours ago, Magestar said:

Not loving the claims going on here.  I'm actually kinda suspicious of the people who are like, 'Yep, I'm village.'  It just seems odd to me.  I know I'm not going to claim yet, if at all.

Besides that... A little bit suspicious of Winter, but I haven't seen them play in a while.  Stink a little bit but not more than usual I guess.  No real village reads this early.  

Gonna be a little bit quiet today, should be more active tomorrow, and then I should be very active starting on Saturday.  Hopefully I'll post again tonight but not sure, having a busy day.

@Magestar, I'm not sure what else you expected to happen when Rae asked people directly whether they were village? It was interesting to observe players' responses, if not useful this time, and avoiding the question as villagers would have created a whole mess of unnecessary suspicion. I'm not sure there's really a parallel to claiming a role, which is what you seem to be implying when you say you won't claim, unless you're telling us that you won't claim as a villager.... 

5 hours ago, Eternum said:

Hi, I'm back. I was on a trip, whatever, that's not relevant. I'd like to clear things up a bit.

First off, I'd like to apologize. I realize I must have seemed kind of off, and it's because I was being a bit too paranoid. It's my first SE game, and I don't wanna die :P.

Just to clear things up, I'm convinced Rae is village, or at least not an immediate threat. I still don't trust Sif lol, but hey my opinion can change. We still don't know anything about anyone.

I'll keep withholding my vote, mainly because I don't know who to vote for :P

@Eternum, would you tell us why you think Rae is village, and why you don't trust Megasif?

5 hours ago, STINK said:

Hey Ecth.

Guess who doesn't even really like schemes? (answer: this guy)

Guess who really doesn't like schemes that he's not involved in but finds out about after? (answer: still this guy)

Guess who really really doesn't like schemes that people make vague references to for no real reason? 

You guessed it, this guy. 

@STINK, if you're voting on Ecthelion for a scheme of his, which is what you seem to be implying, would you mind explains the situation a little more to the thread?

@Ecthelion III, given you might die today, would you care to explain what Stink is talking about?

5 hours ago, Arraenae said:

@All, I asked about alignment and thoughts about it because there was almost nothing inthread and I was bored. I saw a player in one of thr MU games do it.

Reads:

I have a slight village read on Lopen for putting out his reads so early. It seems like he's actually making an effort to solve the game.

Winter feels very, very slightly village. I feel like they were just trying to be clever by making an IKYK. I doubt they're Truthless.

Flash felt slightly OMGUSsy when responding to PK.

When Stick joked around about her alignment, it felt slightly elimy or NAI.

Something that stood out to me was when Overlordjebus said that DA was being slightly accusatory. It feels like he could be trying to discredit DA's read without overtly defending Flash. So, Flash.

@Arraenae, would you explain your last line of logic there to me? It seems to me that you're voting on Flash because you think someone else is attacking someone's read on him. I'm not sure I follow why this makes Flash evil - it's a perfectly normal thing to do to attack an unsubstantiated read. If you're suspicious of Flash because you think evil!Overlordjebus defended him, why not vote on Overlordjebus, and establish whether or not your theory is right?

4 hours ago, Roadwalker said:

This is probably the last time I will be on for a while, I have no idea if the place I am going has internet, and if it does I will be working off of a tiny screen, so I might be able to read the thread but not really post, at least until Sunday.

winter gets my vote for her whole IKYK about the truthless.

etc. etc. I doubt I will be able to remove this, unfortunately.

Catch yalater.

@Roadwalker, what about the IKYK with the Truthless made you think Winter was evil? You clearly think it warranted a vote, yet didn't call them out on her mistaken belief that there was a scanner. Why did you decide not to do so? If you didn't realise, then did you really read their post carefully enough to warrant a vote? Right now, it looks a little like you were trying to find an excuse to vote.

4 hours ago, Roadwalker said:

Actually I think I will change my vote from winter to ecthelion for the slip-up with the squire, I got my alignment highlighted in green in my pm, and I assume everyone else did, which leaves absolutely no reason why ecth would say Squire.

@Roadwalker, would you also explain why you changed your mind on Winter? Do you still consider her suspicious?

I'm not sure why you're suing such hyperbole when you say that you see "absolutely no reason why Ecth would say Squire". Did you really consider his actions? I brought up a number of reasons earlier in my post, and my list isn't exhaustive. For now, I'll put my vote on Roadwalker.

4 hours ago, Eternum said:

So, I think I'll actually vote for Flash because I feel like Rae makes a good point. IDK, but since we've established that Rae is village, I think I'll trust them. (her? Idk.)

@Eternum, which point of Rae's do you think justified the vote on Flash? Her argument about Overlordjebus seems very tenuous to me. It's also worth saying that confirmed village does not mean confirmed right. Following Rae merely because you think she's village both reduces the critical thought available to the village, means that if Rae's manipulated, the whole village is vulnerable, and isn't really a solution to increasing our effectiveness at finding eliminators.

3 hours ago, Megasif said:

I'm leaning towards ect being an elim. So for now ecthelion

@Megasif, would you mind justifying your vote on Ecthelion, please?

 

More multiquoting to follow on posts made since beginning this post, as well as some general thoughts, but I really don't want to lose what I've written again, so will post now.

Edited by Orlok Tsubodai
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2 hours ago, Elenion said:

As I said before, I'm leading slightly elimmy about Ecth because of the way he phrased his alignment. But since the bandwagon is already in full swing, I'm going to hold off my vote to ensure that if he's Truthless, I don't get attacked. Seeing as I've still got my vote... Jondesu. I'll move my vote to Ecth if the voting gets close. Jon said something back on page 2:

Stick already mentioned this: the elims already know everyone's alignments. (Well, except the Truthless.) This post sounds to me like it's meant to prevent Rae's idea from accumulating too many village reads.

Yeah…I almost don't feel a need to even respond to this. Stopping Rae's post from spiraling out of control was the point.  I've seen games where people yelled for role claim after role claim and it's just not helpful. I'm pretty much always going to have a dim view of asking people for role claims publicly.

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By the way, we probably should avoid having too many votes on one person, so that if he is Truthless, it doesn't wipe out half the village.  Vote manipulation by the elims is somewhat of a danger, but a 3 person lead would be plenty.

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27 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

I would vote Ecth, but I'm wondering-- what if Ecth has an actual role and was just lying because they didn't want to give it away. I'm torn. I'm suspicious of Rae, but nobody's voting for them so it's not like that'll do anything.  

You know what storm this Ecth

if they pop on and give another roleclaim because I doubt they're vanilla, then I'll try to remove it

but I'll be AFK for a bit

Do not edit votes into posts. I am marking them as I read through, and it is only by a great amount of luck that I caught this vote at all. If you're going to vote, put it in a new post, or I am very unlikely to catch it. 

Also, clarification: you do not need to retract votes in green. I will take the last vote each player has posted in the thread - again, I'm counting now rather than at the end, and am not checking to see if you've retracted previous votes. 

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@Orlok Tsubodai, @Megasif, I read back through those first posts in question, and I do kinda feel Sif's question was innocuous, so I'm removing my vote on Megasif. I'm not really feeling strongly on the Ecth Lynch, and the accusation on Flash was just absurd to begin with.

Also, I'll say that I suspect Ecth's PM could have said Squire, but most likely he was just keeping the flavor of the game.  I don't think that post was anything like what people are saying.  He might have even copy-pasted from the rules: 

Quote

Factions
Squires: Village faction. Must kill all Skybreakers to win. 

Skybreakers: Eliminator faction with a doc to communicate, and a kill each turn. Must kill or outnumber all Squires to win.

I'm gonna go with my gut and vote on STINK, mostly because I'm always suspicious of STINK.

He smells funny. :P

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@Orlok Tsubodai, everybody has a role. Some of them are extra flavorful. :P

I'm kind of suspicious of the people jumping onto Ecth now. I looked at my GM PM, and I think his response is entirely plausible as a villager. If anything, I think he just outed his role. He also is known for dying early, so maybe the elim team sees him as an easy lynch.

I probably won't be on near rollover, unfortunately.

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Okay, I'm also just gonna say it: @Paranoid King, why haven't you retracted your vote on Flash? I get it, it was a funny poke vote, but since it was for absolutely meaningless reasons, why stick to it? Why not change to someone you actually suspect, or join a bandwagon, or something? Are you hoping Flash will get lynched and then you can laugh off your vote and act like it was just a joke?

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2 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

Isn't the truthless technically village, too?

So, I don't think the Truthless actually is a villager. If they are, the optimal course of action for them to take is to claim immediately, and ask for a single person lynch on them. The Truthless has no interest in causing a greater number of villager deaths, and indeed, wants the village to remain as strong as possible, so as to be more able to find all the eliminators. Obviously, this hasn't happened. What I think is far more likely, is that El's PAFO post is because the Truthless is now neutral, rather than villager, and so has no incentive not to have as much fun with the role as possible.

1 hour ago, winter devotion said:

I would vote Ecth, but I'm wondering-- what if Ecth has an actual role and was just lying because they didn't want to give it away. I'm torn. I'm suspicious of Rae, but nobody's voting for them so it's not like that'll do anything.  

You know what storm this Ecth

if they pop on and give another roleclaim because I doubt they're vanilla, then I'll try to remove it

but I'll be AFK for a bit

@winter devotionwhy are you suspicious of Ecthelion? Do you really think that his saying "Squire" rather than "Villager" warrants a vote? If you're suspicious of Rae, why don't you vote on her? Again, it seems like you have a pattern of casting suspicion without following through with it.

34 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

@Orlok Tsubodai@Megasif, I read back through those first posts in question, and I do kinda feel Sif's question was innocuous, so I'm removing my vote on Megasif. I'm not really feeling strongly on the Ecth Lynch, and the accusation on Flash was just absurd to begin with.

Also, I'll say that I suspect Ecth's PM could have said Squire, but most likely he was just keeping the flavor of the game.  I don't think that post was anything like what people are saying.  He might have even copy-pasted from the rules: 

I'm gonna go with my gut and vote on STINK, mostly because I'm always suspicious of STINK.

He smells funny. :P

@Jondesu, are you able to give us any more justification for your vote on Stink? If you're always suspicious of Stink, is voting on him on gut a good idea? 

33 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

@Orlok Tsubodai, everybody has a role. Some of them are extra flavorful. :P

I'm kind of suspicious of the people jumping onto Ecth now. I looked at my GM PM, and I think his response is entirely plausible as a villager. If anything, I think he just outed his role. He also is known for dying early, so maybe the elim team sees him as an easy lynch.

I probably won't be on near rollover, unfortunately.

 Equally, @Arraenae, an eliminator team, by virtue of being larger, may well include players who know that Ecthelion doesn't like dying early. 

 

General thoughts: I'd like to elaborate on the point Stink made about good dicsussion and bad discussion. We're seeing a lot of posts this cycle, but many of them aren't thought through, or are single comments that could be held for inclusion in a larger post. We're generating a lot of noise, but not an awful lot of signal. Single comments, and off topic discussions make it harder to find the signal amongst the noise - they obscure the useful information. Discussion on why you think a player is evil is useful discussion. Falsely claiming Truthless to generate discussion generates a great deal of noise, and obscures the signal of alignment indicative discussion. 

I'd also state, in case people don't read my previous post, that I think the bandwagon on Ecthelion is entirely unjustified. I don't agree with the early votes on Flash, as no GM would handicap an elimaintor team in that way, and I would point out to the thread that we do still have time left this cycle to find an alternative lynch target.

Edited by Orlok Tsubodai
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@Orlok Tsubodai, it’s honestly a random vote. I don’t ever get enough to go on from Stink and he’s usually Elim when I ignore him, so I don’t want to ignore him. I had no legitimate suspicions to put forward, though, despite the plethora of posts this cycle, because so much of it is just as random or is only going to be helpful after we find out an alignment or two. Ecth and Flash were the only bandwagons, and had I been inclined to join one anyway, I’ve already explained why I didn’t like either of those.

I may still switch my vote before the end (sorry El!).

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52 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

@Megasif, I've already called out your point about believing an eliminator had already posted. Further thoughts: I don't see why this is advantageous at all from a villager's perspective, but as an eliminator it creates an IKYK when you die. It would force us to consider whether you knew that there was one above you, and were trying to dissuade us from considering players posting before this because clearly you wouldn't say it if there were, or whether you knew there weren't and wanted us to doubt that.

Would you also please explain why you asked Rae her role? Asking for alignment doesn't help the eliminators, and gives the village useful information on how people answer the question - do they avoid answering, or act in an overzealous manner? Asking for roles on the other hand doesn't really help the village - we don't need to know who the soothers are, for instance, but helps the eliminators pick targets. Even if she doesn't have a role, you narrow the search space for the eliminators.

@Arraenae, looking back on this, are you claiming to have a role? I don't see why you'd do this as a villager, but might potentially feel safer doing so as an eliminator.

This post has been castigated a lot, with a great many players questioning why @Ecthelion III went to the effort of including the village alignment name. Personally, I don't think that this is too suspicious, and it reminds me too much of the Ripple debacle. It's just as important for villagers to make it obvious that they're village as it is for people to try to find actual eliminators - every cleared villager makes the list of potential eliminators smaller. It's entirely possible that Ecthelion was anxious to make it obvious that he was a villager,or indeed, that he merely felt like putting the faction name in because he was engaged in the setting.

Ecthelion has also died early in a number of games recently. Having had this happen to myself (I had a string of ~7 consecutive games in which I died C1-2), I know it's not fun, and don't think we should have Ecthelion die early again over something as small as this.

@Megasif, time zones, and the fact that it was very early morning for Europe, and late at night for out of the Americas mean that most of an aliminator team wouldn't have seen the game go up. Are you really suggesting that all the eliminators were online, and decided that one of them should post early? Why wouldn't they all try to get on the village side, when they came online?

@The Young Bard, why do you think knowing the number of each role helps the village? They're almost certainly all in the game, so you can give advice regardless. Asking for the number seems like a very eliminator thing to do, ascertaining the degree of safety they need in the end game, etc.

@Darkness Ascendant, if you hadn't already worked it out, the two kills are flavour only. El killed Hael because Alv wanted his head, and I imagine Kenara had been the planned death at the start of the game, to have the setting be the chaos.

I'd also ask why you thought claiming as a roleless was a good idea? If you're claiming honestly, you make it much easier for the eliminators to find the actual roles that they need to deal with.

I disagree that its pointless for the village - as I set out above, it puts players on the spot - particularly articulating how they feel about their alignment. Eliminators will have to fabricate an answer, which provides opportunities for slipping up.

I don't disagree with your belief that Rae is town, or that not all discussion is good discussion, but don't think that Rae's actions were necessarily unhelpful. It would have been much better if she had asked follow up questions exploring players answers, increasing the pressure on them, but I don't think the answer to the question rae puts is always NAI.

@Jondesu, Megasif didn't really add to it, so much as ask Rae the question she was asking everyone else, which I think is entirely fair. I'd been planing on it myself before Megasif did so. 

The first thing to highlight, @winter devotion, is that there isn't a role scanner in the game. I think this lack of knowledge alone is the most interesting part of the post. Had you actually been an eliminator or Truthless trying a gambit, I think you'd have checked the rules more carefully. 

Believing you to be a regular villager, I'm not sure why you consider this post helpful. You've said that it was a gambit to keep yourself alive, as I recall. I'd question why you think this is worth generating a great deal of noise in the thread, obscuring useful discussion. SE is a team game. As villagers, sometimes the best move to make is to allow yourself to be lynched, as the information revealed from it clears or casts suspicion on players. Keeping yourself alive to the detriment of the village, as a villager, really isn't helpful.

@Elithanathile, would you care to explain why you're suspicious of Winter, Stink, and Ecthelion. Knowing your reads is useful, but knowing the thought process behind your reads helps us both clear you as a villager, and consider whether your suspicions merit supporting.

This post makes me lean village on @Megasif. It's certainly possible that as an eliminator he made a mistake about the player he was trying to cast suspicion on, but in my experience eliminators tend to be more careful, and this looks to me like progression of thought, which we're unlikely to see from an eliminator. 

@winter devotion, why won't you vote? Expressing a suspicion and not following it through always strikes me as trying to encourage a lynch without taking the blame when it comes out as a villager.

@Elenion, I'd Ike to thank you for speaking sense about role claims, and ask you why you think Ecthelion's response is evil? You know him well, clearly, and have also played a lot of games with him. Do you think it's really an action likely to come from an eliminator?

@winter devotion, I'd also call out that it seems like you were looking for something to jump onto very quickly, seeming supportive without exposing yourself through any thoughts. I'm still leaning village on you, due to your slip up in the attempted IKYK, but would definitely like you to justify and back your positions more thoroughly in the future. 

@Magestar, I'm not sure what else you expected to happen when Rae asked people directly whether they were village? It was interesting to observe players' responses, if not useful this time, and avoiding the question as villagers would have created a whole mess of unnecessary suspicion. I'm not sure there's really a parallel to claiming a role, which is what you seem to be implying when you say you won't claim, unless you're telling us that you won't claim as a villager.... 

@Eternum, would you tell us why you think Rae is village, and why you don't trust Megasif?

@STINK, if you're voting on Ecthelion for a scheme of his, which is what you seem to be implying, would you mind explains the situation a little more to the thread?

@Ecthelion III, given you might die today, would you care to explain what Stink is talking about?

@Arraenae, would you explain your last line of logic there to me? It seems to me that you're voting on Flash because you think someone else is attacking someone's read on him. I'm not sure I follow why this makes Flash evil - it's a perfectly normal thing to do to attack an unsubstantiated read. If you're suspicious of Flash because you think evil!Overlordjebus defended him, why not vote on Overlordjebus, and establish whether or not your theory is right?

@Roadwalker, what about the IKYK with the Truthless made you think Winter was evil? You clearly think it warranted a vote, yet didn't call them out on her mistaken belief that there was a scanner. Why did you decide not to do so? If you didn't realise, then did you really read their post carefully enough to warrant a vote? Right now, it looks a little like you were trying to find an excuse to vote.

@Roadwalker, would you also explain why you changed your mind on Winter? Do you still consider her suspicious?

I'm not sure why you're suing such hyperbole when you say that you see "absolutely no reason why Ecth would say Squire". Did you really consider his actions? I brought up a number of reasons earlier in my post, and my list isn't exhaustive. For now, I'll put my vote on Roadwalker.

@Eternum, which point of Rae's do you think justified the vote on Flash? Her argument about Overlordjebus seems very tenuous to me. It's also worth saying that confirmed village does not mean confirmed right. Following Rae merely because you think she's village both reduces the critical thought available to the village, means that if Rae's manipulated, the whole village is vulnerable, and isn't really a solution to increasing our effectiveness at finding eliminators.

@Megasif, would you mind justifying your vote on Ecthelion, please?

 

More multiquoting to follow on posts made since beginning this post, as well as some general thoughts, but I really don't want to lose what I've written again, so will post now.

Okay if I'm going to be really honest-- and this is gonna sound incredibly stupid because it is-- I've always had a day dream of being another faction and somehow figuring out how to team up with the eliminators or convincing them I was going to, but revealing that I was lying and revealing them to the village.

That's what I was trying to do but I was acting like an idiot because genius me forgot to check the rules. And also assumed that the eliminators were idiots too. 

I also get kinda nervous about voting.

 

so there's honesty hour! If you wanna believe me, I really am a vanillager and I highly doubt there's going to be a secret faction or role, and El was being a troll. 

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So, vote tally(probably accurate...):

Ecth(6): some people
Flash(2): 2 people
Stick(2): 2 other people

I'd prefer a lynch on Flash or Stick to Ecth. If anyone disagrees with the Ecth lynch and agrees with one of those 2 lynches more than the Ecth one, I'd be happy to add my vote to either of them.

Edit: Oh, and reasons? Ecth lynch seems easy, Flash and Stick seem off to me.

Edited by TheMightyLopen
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2 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Okay, I'm also just gonna say it: @Paranoid King, why haven't you retracted your vote on Flash? I get it, it was a funny poke vote, but since it was for absolutely meaningless reasons, why stick to it? Why not change to someone you actually suspect, or join a bandwagon, or something? Are you hoping Flash will get lynched and then you can laugh off your vote and act like it was just a joke?

Honestly, it's mostly because I've been at work all day and haven't been on 17th Shard yet.

Secondly, if I make a habit of hopping from person to person, people won't take the D1 votes seriously. They'll just give a response and wait for me to move my vote. If I wait longer, the pressure mounts and I can see how people react.

That being said, I'm sure Ecth is innocent. It's my policy that D1 bandwagons are almost always villagers, because elims have info and villagers don't. And if I had to guess between Flash and Stick, I'd probably stay on Flash. It's possible that the Ecth bandwagon was to divert attention away from him. Maybe not, but he's my best lynch candidate right now.

(I could move to Stick, putting him at 3 to Ecth's 6, and I'll probably do that later this cycle if Flash doesn't work out.)

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1 minute ago, Paranoid King said:

Honestly, it's mostly because I've been at work all day and haven't been on 17th Shard yet.

Secondly, if I make a habit of hopping from person to person, people won't take the D1 votes seriously. They'll just give a response and wait for me to move my vote. If I wait longer, the pressure mounts and I can see how people react.

That being said, I'm sure Ecth is innocent. It's my policy that D1 bandwagons are almost always villagers, because elims have info and villagers don't. And if I had to guess between Flash and Stick, I'd probably stay on Flash. It's possible that the Ecth bandwagon was to divert attention away from him. Maybe not, but he's my best lynch candidate right now.

(I could move to Stick, putting him at 3 to Ecth's 6, and I'll probably do that later this cycle if Flash doesn't work out.)

I'm currently leaning Flash over Stick as well, but we'll see. My opinion, and more importantly, my vote, might not make any difference at this point.

What exactly did you vote on Flash for?

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