Have the Heralds been Spiked?

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

So, this is going to be a half baked theory, and I'm not nearly familiar enough with WoK or WoR to really support it, as I don't have the books yet, but here it goes anyways:

We have WoB saying that we have seen Hemalurgy used on other worlds than Scadrial. (If you want more, see this thread) But he makes it sound like we shouldn't be able to find it. Another Nurse Worldhopper? Anyways, I started thinking about how you'd go about finding a hemalurgically spike individual, and what came to mind was the insanity and "voices" that were the biggest hints at spiked individuals on Scadrial. But I wasn't sure. After all, Ruin is now a part of Harmony, and i don't think Harmony would make people go insane. However, what if the back door could also be accessed by other Shards? Thus, if another shard became aware of Hemalurgy, they could replicate what Ruin was doing with Penrod, Spook and Quellion.

That's when it hit me: The Heralds went to Damnation, were tortured, and came back insane. Theories are all about Odium breaking them to start desolations. But what if Odium became aware of Hemalurgy, and started spiking heralds. He would intermingle the spiking with other forms of torture so that people might not notice that he was leaving metal needles in their bodies. I'm not sure if he took complete control (like with Inquisitors) or just opted for a couple spikes and a voice in their head.

Think I'm bogus? Take a look at this quote:

Quote

”Of fires that burned and yet were gone. Of heat he could feel when others felt not. Of screams his own that nobody heard. Of torture sublime, for life it meant…The Gift and words. Not his. Never his. Now his.”I am Talanel’Elin, Herald of War.” Voice. He spoke it. He didn’t think it. The words came, like they always came. “I think…I think I am late…this time…” How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? Too long.

WoR interlude 7

I'm sure there are others. But for now, i just wanted to get these ideas down.

[Steeldancer]

I somewhat doubt that the heralds are spiked, simply because Stormlight is supposed to be independent. 

If someone is spiked on Roshar, I imagine it's someone not hugely important. 

[Calderis]

I don't think a spike would work. 

The Heralds return to Braize if killed. If their bodies were killed, they would have to be physically transported  to Braize to take the spikes with them.

Unless we find they didn't leave corpses behind, they would lose their spikes upon death. 

[Calderis]

32 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

But, we do know that cognitive shadows can be spiked.  Or at least it is heavily implied between Secret History and Bands of Morning.

And? If a spike were taken to the Cognitive Realm and spiked into a Cognitive entity, and then that entity manifested in the physical realm and were killed there, what reason do we have to believe that the physical spike would be spontaneously transported back into the Cognitive? 

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Well, I don't think they have been spiked, but I am just playing devils advocate.

The spike becomes not only a physical part of them, but also a Spiritual patch.  If the Enity is manifested in the physical realm like the Heralds, they seem to bring various items with them back and forth. Their honorblade, clothing, etc.  A spike would even be more a part of them, so it should follow the same rules.

I disagree. The blades are already shown to be able to be dismissed to the Spiritual and/or Cognitive Realm. They are anchored to the nonphysical aspect of their wielder through an established bond, so them traveling with them after the lose of a physical body is easily explained. 

A spike is anchoring something to the spiritual aspect through a physical interaction. If the connection between the Cognitive/spiritual and the physical body are severed, as occurs during death, the connection between the spike and the spiritual should be severed as well. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Well, I'm not sure this is an issue. Notice how the "Insane" heralds are the ones who chose not to go back to Damnation. And even if a Herald were to die, what would stop Odium from re-spiking him. And I'm wondering what other explanations you guys have for the Quote about Talanel'Elin, and the words being fed to him.

[Con578]

I'd love for this to be the case, but so far from what we've seen from the heralds in words of radiance, none of them have acted spiked, and a spike justting from one of them hasn't been described. Thought take that away, and I think the heralds are too key to the story to have been spiked. I haven't really put too much fact into this so the theory could be right. I'm not really disproving much, but it's just a thought on the subject.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

REVISED THEORY:

OK, rereading WoK, and I think I can actually change this to make it more supportable. During the Prelude, I don't see the signs of insanity in either Kalak or Jezrien. Plus, as Heralds, would they have been trusted by the KR during the desolation in they were as obviously insane as some of them seem in both WoK and WoR? I suspect that they might have gone insane after they left the oathpact, during the 4500 years between the prelude and the start of WoK. If this is the case, then the spike theory makes a lot more sense.

So, here is the revised one: The Heralds (minus Talenel) were each spiked one by one over 4500 years. Small spikes, and in situations similar to the spiking of either Spook, Vin or Penrod, where the spike was left in the body for Medical, Emotional or other reasons. Then Odium would be able to use the back door to start twisting their minds. As for arguments about this being something that wouldn't work since you shouldn't need to read Mistborn to understand Stormlight Archives, I think this still works. SA might never explain how the Heralds went insane, though we might still see a couple easter eggs of an earring or metal in a Herald's body. And we also know that SA is supposed to start bringing the several worlds together more and more, which is why we see so many Worldhoppers. I mean, if we can see Kandra in SA, then why not a couple of spiked Heralds?

[Andy92]

I'm gonna share the same WoB Calderis used in another thread when I was talking about plot lines in the different series. 

Quote

ZAS678

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

[misunderstands question as a question about kandra/koloss/parshendi] Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that’s what allows Odium to take control of them.

ZAS678

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created [Here it sounded like the mankind that's on that planet, not the specific generation], so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

Ruin was able to influence spiked individuals on Scadrial because he was involved with creating the human life there. So I'm not sure that spiking a Herald would even open them up to Odium's influence the way you're thinking.

It's definitely possible there's something realmicly going on that's affecting the Heralds' sanity, and it could be involved with their abandonment of the oath pact, but I also think 4,500 years of guilt for what they've done could be as much of a cause of their insanity as anything.  

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

47 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

Ruin was able to influence spiked individuals on Scadrial because he was involved with creating the human life there. So I'm not sure that spiking a Herald would even open them up to Odium's influence the way you're thinking.

It's definitely possible there's something realmicly going on that's affecting the Heralds' sanity, and it could be involved with their abandonment of the oath pact, but I also think 4,500 years of guilt for what they've done could be as much of a cause of their insanity as anything.  

For the Wiki, so not completely trustworthy, but it's better than writing it myself:

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Ruin constructed Hemalurgy with a flaw: each spike creates holes in the mind, making them easier to manipulate. Through powerful emotional Allomancy, one can Push on a spiked creature's emotions so hard that they literally come under the Allomancer's control. Indeed, the spikes in the koloss were what allowed the Lord Ruler to control them. Kandra also can be controlled in this way, but as Allomancers decreased in power, this knowledge was forgotten.

The back door isn't only accessible by Ruin. TLR used it, and any Allomancer can also use it, given enough power. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch at all for another Shard to learn how to do the same thing.

From what I can understand, Preservation had the ability to read minds, and Ruin to project into minds, with that being strengthened through Hemalurgy, making his voice stronger. 

[Calderis]

@Andy92 sorry, but as far as the ability to be done, I have to agree with @Lord Maelstromhere. Hemalurgy has a built in backdoor, so anyone of sufficient power could break through as long as you have enough spikes for to disrupt your Cognitive/Spiritual aspect and let them in. So apparently that's four for humans. 

That said, I doubt the Heralds are spiked. I doubt we'll see Hemalurgy in any obvious way. 

Hell, I think the only way we'll "see" hemalurgy on Roshar is if there's a Kandra worldhopper, which means we won't actually see Hemalurgy, just someone who is effected by it. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

That said, I doubt the Heralds are spiked. I doubt we'll see Hemalurgy in any obvious way. 

Thats my point. Spiked Heralds doesn't have to be an obvious use of Hemalurgy. Brandon could easily just leave it unexplained why they are insane, and the story wouldn't be detracted. However, in his fashion, he would also leave a hint or two so that the 17th Sharders here would figure it out. Again, one of the ways to start merging the different stories together without making it a prerequisite for understanding the story. I mean, if he can openly throw in Nightblood, why not a couple hidden spikes?

[Calderis]

Just now, Lord Maelstrom said:

Thats my point. Spiked Heralds doesn't have to be an obvious use of Hemalurgy. Brandon could easily just leave it unexplained why they are insane, and the story wouldn't be detracted. However, in his fashion, he would also leave a hint or two so that the 17th Sharders here would figure it out. Again, one of the ways to start merging the different stories together without making it a prerequisite for understanding the story. I mean, if he can openly throw in Nightblood, why not a couple hidden spikes?

My main issue with the idea is who did it? They'd almost have to be Scadrians at this point, and for what purpose? To make the Heralds stronger somehow? The backdoor in hemalurgy isn't exactly the point, especially not with needing 4 spikes to reach it, and the mental instability seems like it can't be all that huge or a certain character I won't name due to forum boundaries has 22 spikes and is doing fine. 

I just don't understand who or why it would have been done, and to cause that much mental deterioration seems like it would take enough spikes to be noticeable. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Just now, Calderis said:

My main issue with the idea is who did it? They'd almost have to be Scadrians at this point, and for what purpose? To make the Heralds stronger somehow? The backdoor in hemalurgy isn't exactly the point, especially not with needing 4 spikes to reach it, and the mental instability seems like it can't be all that huge or a certain character I won't name due to forum boundaries has 22 spikes and is doing fine. 

I just don't understand who or why it would have been done, and to cause that much mental deterioration seems like it would take enough spikes to be noticeable. 

As for that, I'm not sure but I have a couple of ideas. As for the certain character, remember, this is the Cosmere Theories forum. Spoilers are fine. I think that to avoid someone taking advantage of the back door, with Ironeyes what is going on is that Harmony is "in control" while leaving him with free agency. Someone would have to wrestle control from someone who is arguable the most powerful entity alive to control him. At least, that's what I think is going on.

As for who? The Unmade are still walking around, and they could probably attract some accomplices. And once you have a single spike, adding 3 more wouldn't be too much of a problem. Also, Odium would have a solid 4500 years to spike them. 4500!. He is bound to have had opportunities. As for giving them powers, not all Hemalurgical spikes have powers, as seen by the spikes used by the Koloss. A hemalurgical spike just requires the death of a human.

[Calderis]

Heh, I thought we were in the Stormlight forum. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

As for who? The Unmade are still walking around, and they could probably attract some accomplices. And once you have a single spike, adding 3 more wouldn't be too much of a problem. Also, Odium would have a solid 4500 years to spike them. 4500!. He is bound to have had opportunities. As for giving them powers, not all Hemalurgical spikes have powers, as seen by the spikes used by the Koloss. A hemalurgical spike just requires the death of a human.

Most of the Unmade are not Sapient. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1175#5

Quote

QUESTION

He also signed my WoR and I asked him to write something about the Unmade (this one is quoted word by word. Can't add picture right now)

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Most of the Unmade are not what we would call sapient. But a few are different..."

I don't think the Unmade are really capable of this, even the intelligent ones. Why would they know/use hemalurgy? How would they manipulate a situation to make it possible? 

There's just to much that would need to be explained. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Heh, I thought we were in the Stormlight forum. 

Yea.... I didn't think a discussion on Hemalurgy on Roshar was appropriate for the SA forum.

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Most of the Unmade are not Sapient. 

Wow. I didn't not know that. Thanks. I guess that does put a wrench in my plans. Though if Ruin was able to influence people enough to spike Vin, etc, then I wouldn't be surprised if over 4500 years, Odium did too. Plus, we have WoBs about Odium knowing about Harmony. And if he knows about Harmony, why not about Hemalurgy?

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Plus, we have WoBs about Odium knowing about Harmony. And if he knows about Harmony, why not about Hemalurgy?

The main issue I have though, is that you have a problem here where Odium can't directly influence anyone on Roshar unless they are A.) bonded to a voidspren, or B.) already above the spike threshold. 

So you run into an issue where you need someone spiked to be controlled to place the spikes, or you have to have some chain of Odium, controls an Unmade, to influence someone to hopefully place a spike in a heralds body without the Herald being aware... When we seen Taln catch a storming blow gun dart in the air with his hands... 

Either the Heralds were willing participants or the circumstances had to be amazingly convoluted. 

I just can't get on board. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

The main issue I have though, is that you have a problem here where Odium can't directly influence anyone on Roshar unless they are A.) bonded to a voidspren, or B.) already above the spike threshold. 

So you run into an issue where you need someone spiked to be controlled to place the spikes, or you have to have some chain of Odium, controls an Unmade, to influence someone to hopefully place a spike in a heralds body without the Herald being aware... When we seen Taln catch a storming blow gun dart in the air with his hands... 

Either the Heralds were willing participants or the circumstances had to be amazingly convoluted. 

I just can't get on board. 

Well, how about this: Why now? Why did it take 4500 years for the Desolations to come back? What if Odium realized that the balance was against him, and also found out about Hemalurgy, right about the same time that the Heralds leave. So, he plots: Find a way to incapacitate the Heralds without killing them. And he finds convoluted ways to spike them. After all, it may have taken him 4500 years. And 4500 years is a REALLY long time.

But I do agree, at this point, it is a lot of a stretch. I'm not saying that the Heralds are spiked. There isn't enough to know. I'm just saying that it is possible. I'll have to try to get a couple of WoB supporting it first.

[Andy92]

My thing is though, Ruin could only influence people who were pierced with metal. And we have a WoB that says Odium doesn't influence people in the same way Ruin does. I suppose Odium does have the ability to influence others using Hemulurgy, but since we've already heard Brandon say that Odium doesn't influence people in the same way Ruin did, I'm inclined to think Odium doesn't use Hemulurgy to gain influence over people. 

I'll admit I was incorrect in assuming it was something Odium was incapable of doing, but I still don't think it's the method he uses.