Steeldancer

The Laws of Shards

15 posts in this topic

OK. So, there are laws that the shards must follow. Like the champion law that Odium has to follow.

Who makes them follow those laws? I assume its related to Adonalsium. But, WHY? Why are there any laws at all? Why can't they do whatever they want? Why must they invest in a champion? Why does the investiture have an intent at all?

I know nobody knows the actual answers to these questions, and that they probably won't be answered for a long time, but it has been something thats been bugging me. 

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4 minutes ago, Flash said:

OK. So, there are laws that the shards must follow. Like the champion law that Odium has to follow.

Who makes them follow those laws? I assume its related to Adonalsium. But, WHY? Why are there any laws at all? Why can't they do whatever they want? Why must they invest in a champion? Why does the investiture have an intent at all?

I know nobody knows the actual answers to these questions, and that they probably won't be answered for a long time, but it has been something thats been bugging me. 

It might just be a basic law of the universe. Like conservation of matter, or of opposite reactions. It could be that the nature of having investiture that is kept in the SR, or really a bunch of things. And why have laws at all? Because the world would be way too fluid otherwise. Thats why gravity, energy and matter exists. Because there are laws governing them, laws that even a shard has to obey, because that's how the world works.

As for the champions, here is my guess: When two shard clash directly, you often get splinters, or the very least a dead vessel. Sometimes even on both sides (Vin and Ruin), which might be based on how each shard has approximately the same amount of investiture to draw from. Where a Champion comes in is that Champions require less investiture, and there is relatively no danger to the actual shard. So, you might have situations where two shards have a fight over something, but neither want to risk their lives. So they agree to leave it up to their champions. And somehow the agreement is binding, forcing them to keep to the terms (like limited involvement, or giving the prize). Maybe something similar to swearing on the River Styx in greek mythology.

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I think that it is a basic nature of the investiture itself. There are laws that are universal to the Shards, because they are bound by the power of the Shard itself. 

The intents are an example of this. The intents separated along lines to do with aspects of what made Adonalsium's personality. There were probably more fundamental aspects that were pervasive enough that they exist within all the Shards. 

What those rules are, we don't know, but the champion is probably tied to some aspects of Oaths. While that is mainly Honor's goal, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that when a Shard makes a deal, the investiture will hold them to it. 

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5 hours ago, Calderis said:

What those rules are, we don't know, but the champion is probably tied to some aspects of Oaths. While that is mainly Honor's goal, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that when a Shard makes a deal, the investiture will hold them to it. 

Except that Preservation broke the deal with Ruin . . . 

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7 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

Except that Preservation broke the deal with Ruin . . . 

@FiveLate beat me to it. Imprisonment didn't negate his word. Ruin's eventual freedom was inevitable. Preservation couldn't hold him indefinitely, and when he failed Ruin would be free. If Preservation's long plan succeeded, Ati wouldn't be the one in control, but Ruin would still be there to see the world end. 

The thing with magically enforced bonds, is the magic has rules of its own. Preservation used the loopholes. 

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Just now, FiveLate said:

All Scadrians eventually die, the sun will eventually burn out or supernova, technically Ruins portion of the deal will eventually be upheld.

I disagree. In the absence of Ruin I find Preservation more than capable of putting everything into stasis and keeping it that way. Ruin himself directly says that Preservation would do so, given the chance. Preservation himself describes his actions as breaking the deal. Further, IIRC the deal was that Preservation would let Ruin destroy Scadrial, which definitely didn't happen.

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On 8/5/2017 at 7:21 PM, Emerald101 said:

Preservation himself describes his actions as breaking the deal. Further, the deal was that Preservation would let Ruin destroy Scadrial, which definitely didn't happen.

Depends on how you look at it. Preservation's death could be considered him "allowing" Ruin to destroy Scadrial. If the deal never specified when, then by technicality, entrapping Ruin didn't break the deal by delaying its completion.

Also, the people who stopped Ruin were Kelsier, Vin, Elend and Sazed. Leras may have given them the opportunity, but he isn't the one who actually prevented Ruin from getting his end of the bargain. Leras was dead by then, giving Ruin his opportunity to destroy Scadrial. He was prevented by forces that were not similarly limited by the deal as Leras was. At most, the deal is incomplete because Ruin wasn't able to hold up his end of the bargain and destroy Scadrial.

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I think the deal between Preservation and Ruin was just a verbal agreement, whereas the Oathpact somehow actually places restrictions on the involved Shards' actions somehow, which would be very difficult. Maybe Cultivation was involved as a sort of third party that would destroy either of them if they broke it? I'd say maybe Cultivation killed Honor, but then again he literally said "Odium has killed me".

The "Champion" bit is probably some clause on the hugely complex magical contract between Honor and Odium, as a sort of failsafe.

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2 hours ago, ForcesOfNoodles said:

I think the deal between Preservation and Ruin was just a verbal agreement, whereas the Oathpact somehow actually places restrictions on the involved Shards' actions somehow, which would be very difficult. Maybe Cultivation was involved as a sort of third party that would destroy either of them if they broke it? I'd say maybe Cultivation killed Honor, but then again he literally said "Odium has killed me".

The "Champion" bit is probably some clause on the hugely complex magical contract between Honor and Odium, as a sort of failsafe.

The Oathpact (whatever it contains) is not a Deal between Shards but between Honor and the Herals.

If a Shard falls automatically under the Oathpact's rules on Roshar (or Great Roshar) is possible (to be honest I think it is the case) but Cultivation is not a core part to it.

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I think Odiums case has something to do with how his trapped in the Roshar system.

A deal between Odium and Honor, and possibly Cultivation.

We dont know much about this deal apart from a small explanation on the champian clause and another small inferance of the desolations.

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First thought when I read the title was titling the Cosmere arc "Game of Shards". Totally unhelpful but there you have it.

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I don't think the champion thing is specific to the oathpact, but is a constraint upon all the shards.  

Take Ruin's use of Marsh at the end of the first mistborn trilogy.  I mean if Ruin didn't have to use a champion, why even bother fighting anyone when the planet is almost beyond saving and they will die anyway.  Yes he is after something, but he could have waited a few months and gotten it all the same.

I think the Oathpact is specific to Honor(as he is all about Oaths), and it is the mechanism that binds Odium.  How it started and the specifics are largely unknown to us, but with the nature of honor, I can't imagine him tricking Odium like Preservation did with Ruin.  Once again going back to the nature of Honor was he made a bargain/challenge to Odium to entice Odium to enter into it willingly thinking either the reward would be worth it and/or it would be easily attained.

Harmony clearly also has limits, else he wouldn't need Wax and company.  

Even in MSH which gives us the best viewpoints from a shardholder perspective, we don't get much, partially because of the nature of the holder.

We just don't have a lot of viewpoints where we get an experienced shardholder being proactive.  

I don't know where I am going with this, but I think the distinction between general shardic law and the oathpact could be important.

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http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='oathpact' 2nd result:

QUESTION ()

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

@Azrael

Edited by john203
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I meant the oathpact was more the mechanism of the prison, not the deal with Odium.  Kind of like when you tell someone "if you can get out of this box, I will give you this"(between Honor and Odium), or it might have been a trap for Odium.  The Oathpact is how to keep him there and is specific to honor and his heralds, as honor is a force unlike ruin or preservation.  I want to say honors power is like Syl describes it. "I bind things." Being honorspren I would imagine she would have Honor like abilities.  But I think the oathpact is unique among shards as oaths bind people to things/actions/truths.  Hence unique to Honor.  However Honor got Odium into the prison the oathpact is the bonds holding him.  I just think that the ability to capture is only easier with some trick, else it would be easier to kill, and if the shards started with roughly equal power...(not to mention that Odium has proven to be quite formidable).

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You sir.... really confused me... I was like "I didn't post on that board!!"

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