Buddy Orders

[Ciridae]

In Dalinar's first vision two radiants fight against midnight essence. The male radiant is a Windrunner and the female radiant is described as having "light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night". Her armor is not described, but we know from another vision that Stonewards have Plate that glows amber at the joints. (WoK chapter 52, when Stonewards and Windrunners show up at Feverstone Keep.) We know from those same visions and from Kaladin that Winrunners get blue eyes amd plate, matching their polestone and the color of their order on surgebinding chart. Following that pattern the other orders' eyes and plate should correspond similarly. Assuming this is correct, the female radiant in Dalinar's first vision would be a Stoneward. 

So in the two instances that we see multiple orders of the ancient radiants interacting with one another, we see Stonewards and Windrunner's acting together. Why is that? Do their surges complement one another well in battle? We don't see an active use of surges when they fight the midnight essence. Is it because both order's seem to be battle oriented?

Both of these reasons might be a factor, but I think the real reason is that some of the Stonewards may have been Windrunner squires before, and vice versa. 

Picture this. A Stoneward squire learns about standing in the face of adversary, about protecting and standing where others fall from their Knight. They are trained as a warrior. They have it easier than most to become a radiant, they are familiar with spren, the orders and using stormlight. This squire is a natural leader and while they have had the most contact with Stonewards, an honorspren picks up on them.

Both orders seem to value the lives of others over their own and would sacrifice their own wellbeing to protect others. I think the oaths of the two orders will end up being similar enough that squires under one order will have a the opportunity to interpret them in a way that attracts the spren of the other order. 

So all of a sudden you have Windrunners and Stonewards that are very familiar with the other order and most likely still have buddy radiants that used to be squires with them. Naturally these like-minded, battle oriented orders with strong social bonds still in place are going to fight alongside one another. 

I'm not sure if this would have been something unique between these two orders or if it was common among the other orders as well. Probably less common among Lightweavers, but I could see Truthwatchers and Edgedancers experiencing something similar, what with all the altruistic tendencies.

We still know so little about the other orders, their oaths and how they interacted with one another, but what do you think? Is it too far fetched or within reason?

[Crucible of Shards]

I think, especially with Urithiru as the headquarters for all the orders, it would be highly improbable that this wouldn't happen. I also think that there is a high likelihood that orders with vastly different oaths may have frequently experienced friction, such as the epigraph about the Windrunners and the Skybreakers gave an example of.

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

I think, especially with Urithiru as the headquarters for all the orders, it would be highly improbable that this wouldn't happen. I also think that there is a high likelihood that orders with vastly different oaths may have frequently experienced friction, such as the epigraph about the Windrunners and the Skybreakers gave an example of.

Yeah. With 10 groups all bound together in a single population center, things are bound to break into political factions. 

What little we know of the Stonewards does seem to make them a sympathetic group towards the Windrunners and vice versa. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1107#4

Quote

JERICH ()

Are the Skybreakers kind of like the MPs of the Knights Radiant?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

Hmm... (Thinking) ... Yes. That is actually a really good analogy.

I imagine the Skybreakers role in Urithiru as a police force would have held them apart from the other Orders generally. This may have facilitated their subterfuge at the Recreance. 

I wonder which groups did align well, and how many factions formed in Urithiru. 

[Azul]

From Jasnah we learn that many orders of the Knights Radiant were not militant.  

Quote

The archetype of Radiants on the battlefield is an exaggeration. From what I’ve read—though records are, unfortunately, untrustworthy—for every Radiant dedicated to battle, there were another three who spent their time on diplomacy, scholarship, or other ways to aid society.

I would imagine both Windrunners and Stonewards are which would explain why they would likely be at the forefront of any confrontation.  This could explain a camaraderie between these orders.  Their virtues seem compatible as well.

[Velvet Thunder]

3 hours ago, Azul said:

From Jasnah we learn that many orders of the Knights Radiant were not militant.  

I would imagine both Windrunners and Stonewards are which would explain why they would likely be at the forefront of any confrontation.  This could explain a camaraderie between these orders.  Their virtues seem compatible as well.

Good catch.

Perhaps not dedicated, but all would be trained for war. Not unlike modern military structures, where you have engineers, medics, communications etc as well as infantry. All are trained to fight, then they specialise in their areas as well and the infantry take their battle prowess one step further.

[Frostlander]

Perhaps the Windrunners often served as more of an advance force and the Stonewards were more of a rearguard. That's not to say that they were limited to those positions, but more that they were associated with them and their related heroic or courageous qualities.

We also know that the Windrunners didn't always get along with the Skybreakers. There may be some tension (fun or otherwise) between Windrunners (Kaladin) and Lightweavers (Shallan) and their Cryptics and Honorspren. 

Lightweavers and Truthwatchers might squabble over how to interpret truth. And Shallan and Renarin didn't always work well together, especially at the end of WoR. If Renarin "sees" and Shallan manipulates truth and vision with shadows and light, that could lead to conflict. I could actually see Lightweavers and Edgedancers working well together to change and heal using sight and sound.

[Nathrangking]

I am in agreement that like all "Political Groups" the knights radiant would have been composed of factions who were more allied in their ideals with some that others. That being said they were human which would have led to a degree of infighting. That would have made some more likely to work more readily alongside other. In reference to the windrunners being advanced scouts their powers seem to fit the scout mentality of hit and run.

[aemetha]

I don't really see windrunners as a hit and run force, that doesn't really fit with their oaths. I see them more as a force that moves quickly to defend others, but sticks to that task until the people no longer need protection. More of a rapid response to populations in need team than a scout team. More hit and less run in other words.

I think the oaths could be quite good indicators of what roles they played. We've only seen a few oaths but it makes me think of the windrunners as I described, and edgedancers a bit like a delta force team, hard to pin down moving behind enemy lines to try and help those trapped and wounded.

We have an idea of what the stonewards were like in combat from the words of radiance reference to them being best matched to their herald - they find the enemy and they fight until they win or they die. I'm sure there's some overlap there with the windrunners and they could easily find themselves fighting the same battles. I would liken it more to a case of windrunners fighting until the people they are protecting are safe, and stonewards fighting until the ground they are holding is secure though.

[Calderis]

@aemetha exactly! Like reserve light cavalry acting to support places the lines grow weak. 

Hit and run tactics feel to "dishonorable" for the Windrunners. 

[Nathrangking]

I think perhaps I should explain a little bit. The phrase hit and run has become associated with the sweep in attack and retreat style of insurgent forces. It was not so in the realm of ancient warfare. @Calderis reserve light cavalry did in fact act the part of hit and run skirmishers who would fill in the gaps harass the enemy and then retreat again until they were needed. The classic example of the skirmisher would be Hannibal's Numidian Cavalry. They actually do protect the weak by filling in the gaps in the line and protect the exposed troops from being torn apart by the attacking force. Traditionally the goal was to split the front line and cut the army in two without the hit and run skirmishers  the army will be destroyed. When I said that they use hit in run I meant it in the traditional sense. They would fit in that in and out role reinforcing and protecting the most vulnerable segments. They would truly embody the ideal of protecting those who cannot protect themselves by providing support in the areas that need it the most and by then withdrawing to protect other segments as they become vulnerable. 

[The One Who Connects]

On 8/3/2017 at 9:44 AM, Ciridae said:

So in the two instances that we see multiple orders of the ancient Radiants interacting with one another, we see Stonewards and Windrunners acting together. Why is that? Do their surges complement one another well in battle? Is it because both order's seem to be battle oriented?

On the battlefield, I don't think Orders would limit themselves by their Oath disagreements. A Skybreaker and a Windrunner come across a Thunderclast, they are gonna work together against it. Most likely a Stoneward/Windrunner Warpair has complementing Surges and fighting styles. Can't say for sure until we learn what Stonewards can do, but for now it seems reasonable.

That said, if we do see lines and "factions" among the Orders back at HQ, it's probably related to their Oaths/mindsets being compatible.

[+robardin]

Didn't the female Radiant in that vision heal people with the Surge of Progression? So either an Edgedancer or Truthwatcher.

 

EDIT: Yep, TWoK Ch. 19, she heals "Heb" (Dalinar's role) and his wife and calls it Regrowth. We don't see her using either Lightwesving or Slickness in the fight, though.

Edited September 15, 2017 by robardin

[Hafrigado]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Didn't the female Radiant in that vision heal people with the Surge of Progression? So either an Edgedancer or Truthwatcher.

 

EDIT: Yep, TWoK Ch. 19, she heals "Heb" (Dalinar's role) and his wife and calls it Regrowth. We don't see her using either Lightwesving or Slickness in the fight, though.

She used some kind of fabrial.

[Prontos]

Didn't the male knights armour glow blue? Combined with the whole falling into the sky thing would make him a windrunner, so what colour was the females armour?

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, Prontos said:

Didn't the male knights armour glow blue? Combined with the whole falling into the sky thing would make him a windrunner, so what colour was the females armour?

Amber. She had a progression fabrial, but the color indicates Stoneward. 

[styn]

Meh, colors or not. Since WoR I've thought of the female Radiant from this scene as an Edgedancer because it makes the most sense. Windrunners and Skybreakers are probably the fastest militant orders, but Edgedancers are certainly going to be the fastest healers. Makes sense to send out a bunch of Windrunners and Edgedancers to counter a 'raid'. Also we know that fabrials were not very advanced in the past so I think it's more likely that it was not a fabrial at all and rather a version of shardblade which helped with the healing process for some reason.

[+robardin]

8 hours ago, Hafrigado said:

She used some kind of fabrial.

I see. That wasn't clear to me on first read but yeah, I see that now

[Ciridae]

3 hours ago, styn said:

Also we know that fabrials were not very advanced in the past so I think it's more likely that it was not a fabrial at all and rather a version of shardblade which helped with the healing process for some reason.

Fabrials were far more advanced in the past. Think of old Soulcasters. Modern day artifabrians have no idea how they were made or why they work. Or the giant lifts in Urithiru or the Oathgates. Navani, one of the most knowledgeable people in the field, even remarks on how advanced the architects of Urithiru were. Finally, we see Nale use a similar fabrial to heal Szeth, and we know he only has an Honorblade that doesn't grant Progression. 

[stonedshaman]

Honestly I've always viewed the stonewards as being very similar to the stone dogs of WoT wherein once they engage in battle they do not retreat they fight to the last wether it means living through it or not.  Which I think is very similar to how Taln fights in the prologue 

[Fulminato]

in the starfall vision one thing I find alwasy 'off'. the order of stoneward don't have any clear movement enhanced surge, but the two radiant come to the same place the same time. the first fight between szeth and kaladin the first try to lash the second, but fail make him change direction of the fall. this can be because all two are windrunner (sort of), but i think is a 'feat' shared between all surgebinder, so the windrunner cannot have lashed the stoneward all the way out. then how?

7 hours ago, Ciridae said:

Fabrials were far more advanced in the past. Think of old Soulcasters. Modern day artifabrians have no idea how they were made or why they work. Or the giant lifts in Urithiru or the Oathgates. Navani, one of the most knowledgeable people in the field, even remarks on how advanced the architects of Urithiru were. Finally, we see Nale use a similar fabrial to heal Szeth, and we know he only has an Honorblade that doesn't grant Progression. 

fabrial don't work using surge, a wob state the 'magic' of fabrial different from the surge, and soulcasting is a surge, like regrowth or elsecalling (oathgate), the people can call them 'fabrial' but i think the devices are realy different

Edited September 15, 2017 by Fulminato

[Calderis]

16 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

fabrial don't work using surge, a wob state the 'magic' of fabrial different from the surge, and soulcasting is a surge, like regrowth or elsecalling (oathgate), the people can call them 'fabrial' but i think the devices are realy different

While it's true there is something different about ancient fabrials, fabrials harness the power of spren who are the surges given life via Cognitive thought of the forces as living things. 

All of Roshar's magic appears to function via the surges. Fabrials work differently than surgebinding but they still use the surges. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

47 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

in the starfall vision one thing I find alwasy 'off'. the order of stoneward don't have any clear movement enhanced surge, but the two radiant come to the same place the same time. the first fight between szeth and kaladin the first try to lash the second, but fail make him change direction of the fall. this can be because all two are windrunner (sort of), but i think is a 'feat' shared between all surgebinder, so the windrunner cannot have lashed the stoneward all the way out. then how?

The Windrunners could have lashed the Stonewards so long as the Stonewards were not drawing in stormlight. Higher investiture makes it harder for other investiture to affect them. Szeth couldn't lash Kaladin during the fight as they were both drawing pretty heavily on stormlight. 

[Fulminato]

32 minutes ago, Calderis said:

While it's true there is something different about ancient fabrials, fabrials harness the power of spren who are the surges given life via Cognitive thought of the forces as living things. 

All of Roshar's magic appears to function via the surges. Fabrials work differently than surgebinding but they still use the surges. 

the modern fabrial enhanced, damper, mimic the moviment (both the same or the opposite) detect movement...

i don't see any surge can be linked to this effect, but they are (near) all 'manipulation' of the normal 'feature' of the world.

[Calderis]

16 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

the modern fabrial enhanced, damper, mimic the moviment (both the same or the opposite) detect movement...

i don't see any surge can be linked to this effect, but they are (near) all 'manipulation' of the normal 'feature' of the world.

Here you go. 

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1038#13

Quote

QUESTION

Fabrials replicate Soulcasting abilities. Is it possible for fabrials to replicate all such Surgebinding abilities?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, good question! Fabrials can replicate all of the Surgebinding abilities.

 

[Hischier]

On August 4, 2017 at 0:44 AM, Frostlander said:

Perhaps the Windrunners often served as more of an advance force and the Stonewards were more of a rearguard. That's not to say that they were limited to those positions, but more that they were associated with them and their related heroic or courageous qualities.

We also know that the Windrunners didn't always get along with the Skybreakers. There may be some tension (fun or otherwise) between Windrunners (Kaladin) and Lightweavers (Shallan) and their Cryptics and Honorspren. 

Lightweavers and Truthwatchers might squabble over how to interpret truth. And Shallan and Renarin didn't always work well together, especially at the end of WoR. If Renarin "sees" and Shallan manipulates truth and vision with shadows and light, that could lead to conflict. I could actually see Lightweavers and Edgedancers working well together to change and heal using sight and sound.

This is something I really hope to see at some point. While I'm a fan of Shallan-Kaladin getting together at some point (I wouldn't say I'm shipping them but their scenes together were my favorite parts of WoR aside from the dueling scene so I'm hoping to see more of that) what I really want to see is how Syl and Pattern react to each other and in general how do radiant-spren interact, if they do.