Tell us what we're doing, since we can't decide :P   38 members have voted

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  1. 1. Tell us what we're doing, since we can't decide :P

    • A Joe in the Forest
      27
    • A Joe in the Court
      11

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465 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Aonar Faileas said:

Wandering Eye: This one was kind of fun, conceptually. A Neutral that’s not actually neutral. They can’t die, don’t count for anyone’s win conditions; but they win which one of those win conditions; which one varying on the state of the game. I think El had fun with this one, on balance, although I know she wasn’t very happy with us after what happened to Drought. :P

Zeta: Well, Zeta while Zeta only went off once, it went off early, during a meeting, and effected the maximum number of people possible. That was interesting. >> Honestly, it wouldn’t have had that large an impact; without Lopen’s influence (be getting to that in a moment) El wouldn’t have been effected at all, and Mega might have flipped alignments, rather than becoming a Whitelegs. Cutting off communications for those players had a very large effect though; one that wasn’t necessarily bad, but definitely did effect the game more than I expected. Now, on the secret (or at least, obscured) parts of that mechanic. Zeta’s role had a very (very) small chance to generate a Whitelegs naturally (something like a 2.5% chance) but Zeta was able to manipulate their realm, once inside it, in a similar manner to making everything boring. Given that everything in that realm has at least a degree of randomness, that’s a fairly strong ability. Lopen decided he wanted to up the odds of El and Megasif gaining secret alignments, and well, we all saw how that turned out. :P Honestly, I don’t think this was broken. Yeah, getting an SK thrown into an Elim team is bad, but, but really it hurts both factions about equally, and it’s definitely better than one of them flipping to villager; something that was made explicit in the rules, and, oddly, no one complained about the odds of happening. :P Also in Zeta’s realm, the OoA was randomized, targets could switch, and roles could have strange effects; a good example being Araris’s attack on El; in Zeta’s realm, the Engineer’s robot will attack any Dragonslayer, for flavour reasons. :P

So, yes, I did have a great deal of fun with this game. :P While I was annoyed at my situation, the rest of the game by far made up for thta. (Though I'm sad that I didn't get to send my 100-PMs-in-an-hour, since it got too annoying. :P)

I think the issue I had with this situation is twofold. One, the incentive here is for the SK to kill all of the elim team as fast as possible, because so long as the SK is alive the village still can't win. So I disagree that it harms the village just as much, and certainly not at first. Secondly, it was the fact that Drought was hit, through me. He didn't enter Zeta, so the elims didn't even know it was possible for him to switch alignments. If they're given fair warning, maybe - Orlok was certainly suspicious of me for a while. But until I told him, no one was at all suspicious of Drought because he hadn't entered Zeta. How could he have changed? If I were only in contact with Drought and none of the rest of the evil team knew about me or knew my identity, they would have had no way of knowing what was coming, and so no way of fighting back. 
Also, it's just that I dislike converted elims in general. It's been tried before (LG26 with Paalm, MR17 with Elenion, LG29 also with Elenion), and never turned out terribly well. Anything that compromises the eliminators is something of a problem, because the point of an eliminator team is that they have more information and perfect communication. (That was already somewhat gone in this game because of the Engineer, by the way, which was also very irritating - it brings to mind Burnt in LG33, spying on you, Aonar. That was very definitely the last time I'm ever doing doc spying, because I disliked it so much.) Giving them a traitor is just... not fun, in my opinion. Though it turned out just fine this time. :P 

Also, no one complained about the odds of Zeta switching alignments because it was very obviously not made explicit what alignment they'd be switching to, and I think everyone essentially assumed that it wouldn't be just Court/Forest. :P 

Anyway. Despite that whole issue I still greatly enjoyed the game, and it didn't turn out badly as things went. I think it could have, but it fortunately didn't. 

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It was fun game... I think... 20% to die, more then enough for me :P

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3 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

So, yes, I did have a great deal of fun with this game. :P While I was annoyed at my situation, the rest of the game by far made up for thta. (Though I'm sad that I didn't get to send my 100-PMs-in-an-hour, since it got too annoying. :P)

I think the issue I had with this situation is twofold. One, the incentive here is for the SK to kill all of the elim team as fast as possible, because so long as the SK is alive the village still can't win. So I disagree that it harms the village just as much, and certainly not at first. Secondly, it was the fact that Drought was hit, through me. He didn't enter Zeta, so the elims didn't even know it was possible for him to switch alignments. If they're given fair warning, maybe - Orlok was certainly suspicious of me for a while. But until I told him, no one was at all suspicious of Drought because he hadn't entered Zeta. How could he have changed? If I were only in contact with Drought and none of the rest of the evil team knew about me or knew my identity, they would have had no way of knowing what was coming, and so no way of fighting back. 
Also, it's just that I dislike converted elims in general. It's been tried before (LG26 with Paalm, MR17 with Elenion, LG29 also with Elenion), and never turned out terribly well. Anything that compromises the eliminators is something of a problem, because the point of an eliminator team is that they have more information and perfect communication. (That was already somewhat gone in this game because of the Engineer, by the way, which was also very irritating - it brings to mind Burnt in LG33, spying on you, Aonar. That was very definitely the last time I'm ever doing doc spying, because I disliked it so much.) Giving them a traitor is just... not fun, in my opinion. Though it turned out just fine this time. :P 

Also, no one complained about the odds of Zeta switching alignments because it was very obviously not made explicit what alignment they'd be switching to, and I think everyone essentially assumed that it wouldn't be just Court/Forest. :P 

Anyway. Despite that whole issue I still greatly enjoyed the game, and it didn't turn out badly as things went. I think it could have, but it fortunately didn't. 

I disagree with that, actually. A smart SK is going to focus on the village with only the odd Elim kill thrown in, or else they're going to be made painfully obvious, and just result in mutual destruction. The interaction between the Wandering Eye and Whitelegs is a fair point, but the Elims were right to be suspicious of you, although because of that they should have been suspicious of Drought as well. You and Drought share a win con, you went to Zeta's realm; if one of you is converted, you both are. The logic there is not hard. Converted Elims don't work when doing so gives the convert more power than the Elims, and I don't think that happened, this time. In this case, I'd argue they did have warning (albeit indirectly) the SK doesn't have an incentive to kill the Elims first, and, on top of that, you existed. The Wandering Eye is a powerful role that essentially gets to choose its side, as you did. (Aside: Honestly, I was annoyed the whole game at the level of paranoia you guys had about doc-spying. The odds of you actually getting spied on, assuming they even chose to spy on you, was 1/(5(x+1)). (x being the number of PMs.) You make three PMs and the odds of being spied on are basically nil. Communication was only as limited as you let it be. The problem with LG33 was that I believed that it was something that wasn't possible, and it ended up something with decently large odds of happening. With the number of PMs you made, El, there was a less than 1% chance any of your doc communications were going to be intercepted. >>)

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It woulda been a lotta fun but then I died a few cycles in. :/

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1 hour ago, Aonar Faileas said:

I disagree with that, actually. A smart SK is going to focus on the village with only the odd Elim kill thrown in, or else they're going to be made painfully obvious, and just result in mutual destruction. The interaction between the Wandering Eye and Whitelegs is a fair point, but the Elims were right to be suspicious of you, although because of that they should have been suspicious of Drought as well. You and Drought share a win con, you went to Zeta's realm; if one of you is converted, you both are. The logic there is not hard. Converted Elims don't work when doing so gives the convert more power than the Elims, and I don't think that happened, this time. In this case, I'd argue they did have warning (albeit indirectly) the SK doesn't have an incentive to kill the Elims first, and, on top of that, you existed. The Wandering Eye is a powerful role that essentially gets to choose its side, as you did. (Aside: Honestly, I was annoyed the whole game at the level of paranoia you guys had about doc-spying. The odds of you actually getting spied on, assuming they even chose to spy on you, was 1/(5(x+1)). (x being the number of PMs.) You make three PMs and the odds of being spied on are basically nil. Communication was only as limited as you let it be. The problem with LG33 was that I believed that it was something that wasn't possible, and it ended up something with decently large odds of happening. With the number of PMs you made, El, there was a less than 1% chance any of your doc communications were going to be intercepted. >>)

I'll disagree with this in a number of places, Aonar. First on the Whitelegs/Wandering eye interaction.

We could only be suspicious of Drought insofar as we had information. For it to be a fair mechanic - or for us to have reasonable suspicion of Drought, we'd have to know how his win con worked, which required El or Drought telling us.

What we were told, was that El merely had to keep Drought alive, not that they shared a win condition. That implied a one way interaction, to me. Now, clearly that was incorrect, but illustrates that our ability to act in a way that gave us a fighting chance was limited to the information given to us by those with incentive to oppose us. If Drought and El had been playing in a more competitive manner, El wouldn't have revealed, and we'd have had absolutely no reason to suspect interaction at all. Similarly, I disagree on it being fair to both sides - the village are more likely to lynch a non-village player than the eliminators are to attribute kills to something other than a vigilante, and particularly to hit back, within their own ranks, accurately. If it had got down to the end game, we'd have no realistic chance of winning against a turncoat serial killer, whereas the village wouldn't be materially adversely affected.

On PM spying, we had absolutely no way of knowing that it was that low a chance, and so took precautions commensurate with it being a realistic chance. Without knowledge of the numbers, it would be foolhardy to assume that we were safe, and so better to limit communication. With perfect knowledge, once again, it would have been less of a handicap.

Overall, though, the game was great fun, and I particularly enjoyed the interaction between the competing eliminator teams. Thanks to everyone who played, and particularly to Aonar and Joe for running it.

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Why dhe heck did the woods kill me? I checked the doc and it was just random seeming. 

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8 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Why dhe heck did the woods kill me? I checked the doc and it was just random seeming. 

Predominately because you'd just survived the last game you played, and so would not be suffering from a string of early deaths, and because your death would reveal very little to the Court, thereby limiting the information from which anyone could conclude any of us were evil.

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Just now, Orlok Tsubodai said:

Predominately because you'd just survived the last game you played, and so would not be suffering from a string of early deaths, and because your death would reveal very little to the Court, thereby limiting the information from which anyone could conclude any of us were evil.

Dude. I guess this is good motivation but also, dude. 
I feel like I should be insulted it wasn't because I'm an incredibly intimidating player. 

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In the very least, this game introduced me to a very awesome webcomic.

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7 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

I'm curious, @DroughtBringer, were you being honest with me in our PM the cycle before you died? Because your PM with Dalinar had all of us convinced that you were lying to us and fishing for information when you told him to target me with a kill.

And I guess the Forest elims didn't hit Dalinar the last night. That's the only way the game would have kept going.

I was telling the truth! 

For my plan to work it (originally) involved me literally killing everyone. My original plan was to kill the elims then slowly whittle down the village. Is DK wasn't actually lying then it would have worked better. Then El refused to work with me towards that and I could no longer do that so then I was going for a normal tie all around.

 

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8 hours ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I'll disagree with this in a number of places, Aonar. First on the Whitelegs/Wandering eye interaction.

We could only be suspicious of Drought insofar as we had information. For it to be a fair mechanic - or for us to have reasonable suspicion of Drought, we'd have to know how his win con worked, which required El or Drought telling us.

What we were told, was that El merely had to keep Drought alive, not that they shared a win condition. That implied a one way interaction, to me. Now, clearly that was incorrect, but illustrates that our ability to act in a way that gave us a fighting chance was limited to the information given to us by those with incentive to oppose us. If Drought and El had been playing in a more competitive manner, El wouldn't have revealed, and we'd have had absolutely no reason to suspect interaction at all. Similarly, I disagree on it being fair to both sides - the village are more likely to lynch a non-village player than the eliminators are to attribute kills to something other than a vigilante, and particularly to hit back, within their own ranks, accurately. If it had got down to the end game, we'd have no realistic chance of winning against a turncoat serial killer, whereas the village wouldn't be materially adversely affected.

On PM spying, we had absolutely no way of knowing that it was that low a chance, and so took precautions commensurate with it being a realistic chance. Without knowledge of the numbers, it would be foolhardy to assume that we were safe, and so better to limit communication. With perfect knowledge, once again, it would have been less of a handicap.

Overall, though, the game was great fun, and I particularly enjoyed the interaction between the competing eliminator teams. Thanks to everyone who played, and particularly to Aonar and Joe for running it.

As, for the first, fair enough. You only had reason to suspect Drought if El revealed the full details of her role. As for the second, I think I still disagree. Zeta's realm happens, and suddenly Flash and Shqueeves die on concurrent cycles; kills very clearly made by a newly created SK (Whitelegs kills are pretty distinguishable, assuming I write a write-up. >>). Do you think "oh wow, how did this villager who became an SK suddenly learn all of our identities, who is this mysteriously well-informed villager?" or do you put a kill in on Drought? I'd be willing to bet you'd do the second; or, at very least, you'd think long and hard about it. Or, at the very, very least, Drought is worried enough about the possibility to spread the kills out.

This we've talked about a bit over FB; probably pointless to just repeat stuff here. :P 

Anyways, thank you, very much. Despite my crabbiness about the Engineer and the Whitelegs, I'm glad you enjoyed the game. :P 

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I just realized I never got a link to the ether

Robots dont have an afterlife! :o

Spooky

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I have no idea how I lost, but I had a ton of fun playing this game! I think the only reason we lost was because so many foresters died to the zeta dimension. It was fun, and educating to be elim again. Thank you Aonar for running it!

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I'll just post again. I have no idea why you guys made me medium, I was camping lol. I think I told you guys that. If I could have been on, I swear I would have. But roaming charges are not something I like to incur

I did have a lot of fun though. I feel really bad about the last minute inactivity. 

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Well, it is long, long past time we closed this game up.  Congratulations to the Court and many thanks to both Aonar and Joe for running this game.  Running one game is time consuming but the two of you were basically running two games at the same time.  Very well done.  (If you ever run a game like this again, I will hunt you both down and kill you in a suitably horrible fashion. :P  Separate threads?  Really?)  The game was fun to watch unfold but very confusing to keep straight.

In order for this game to remain readable for future readers, the three threads will remain separate.  I wish you future readers luck in keeping up with what's going on where. :) 

If anyone would like to try their hand at running a game, please get a hold of Wilson, Orlok Tsubodai, Seonid or myself. Not only will we get you added to the list, but we'd also be more than willing to help out in any way we can.

You can also ask questions and get some hints and feedback from everyone over here in our Art of Game Creation thread as well. With all the games that we've run so far, we have plenty of experienced GMs that can help you refine any game you're thinking about!  If you would rather keep some detail secret or are self conscious about posting in thread (there's really no need to be, while we do slaughter each other, we are very polite about it), then I'm sure one of our fantastic committee members (Elbereth, Amanuensis, Aonar Faileas, A Joe in the Bush, and Stink) would be more than willing to help you out in private.

Thanks again to everyone that played and we look forward to killing seeing you in future games! :ph34r:

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