189 posts in this topic

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

I think it is highly likely that he can, given that he uses feruchemical speed against Sazed. I'm also pretty sure that he uses allomantic steel in Era 2. And, seeing as allomantic steel is very useful, it would be wierd for Ruin not to let his best Inquisitor have it.

I thought I remembered him using it against Sazed but wasn't sure. I knew he had steel A-steel from Era 2 and the ability to shoot. 

So there you go, gotta go edit my initial post. Thanks Cylon! 

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1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Kelsier vs Elend: Elend has the power, but he lacks the skill and the cleverness. Kelsier himself said that Allomancy is all about tricks. And few are better tricksters than the Survivor of Hathsin.

 

On 8/4/2017 at 9:19 AM, Calderis said:

Kelsier. He fights smart, and by that I mean dirty. Elend strong, but Kelsier isn't really intimidated by that at all. 

Winner: Kelsier. 

So there's my take across the board, since this wasn't proposed as a single boutique focus. 

I need both of you to keep in mind how atium affects the battle here; seeying how Elend knows the properties of electrum and kelsier does not, and Elend ALSO knows the properties of duralium, and kelsier, does not. seeing the pattern here? here's how i would imagine the fight plays out:

Kelsier starts with the edge, he's craftier, cunning and has lots more combat skills. Elend starts burning atium, kelsier retaliates by burning atium as well.

Elend burns electrum, making kelsier's atium inert, he doesn't know of electrum, so he can't burn it as well, so Elend has 5 minutes of atium combined with duralium while kelsier is a normal mistborn

oh yeah, and also Elend is lerasium, he is more powerfull than kelsier when it comes to brute strength.

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I'm well aware @Nohadon. Your assuming I hadn't considered that, when I had, and I think Elend loses before Kel's atium runs out. 

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if it doesn't have to be cosmere, I would like to see Rand al'thor vs someone... maybe TLR

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On 8/1/2017 at 5:07 AM, Nohadon said:

Kaladin Vs Arclo                   

Vasher Vs Raoden
 
Marsh Vs Jasnah 
             
Vin Vs Denth 
                                      
Kelsier Vs Elend 

First off, sorry for the long post :D

Kaladin might take this one. He has only a few short moments to realize what Arclo is and what he's capable of. If he misses that shot, he'll be dead. However, if he shoots up into the air with Gravitation, then he'll most likely escape the worst of Arclo's first assault. We can assume there are hoardlings that can fly, so that would be his next opponent. If Syl can work out some fun, spinny-bladed death machine he might fight off some of these, but Acrlo still isn't taking too much damage. So Kaladin gets smart and heads for the ground. He infuses some object with a Reverse Lashing to take out the flying Hoardlings, then goes for a Full Lashing to immobilize the ones coming on the ground (but only as long as he's got enough Stormlight). Syl can go spinny-blades-of-death on Arclo, assuming he's holding together in a physical form at this point. Now, if we assume there is a "queen" to the hive mind, and Syl can kill it, then all good and well for Kaladin. But if Arclo is alive as long as one hoardling remains, and since we have no idea just how many he has at his command, then he could still win the day. All in all, I'd say too little info to call on this one. But boy, would I love to see a full Radiant in a fight against one of the Sleepless! Draw.

We need some parameters for this one, since Raoden needs the AonDor and Vasher needs Breaths. Assume that Raoden doesn't have the full might of the AonDor, and to make it even we take away Nightblood from Vasher. This leaves both men weaker but by no means defenseless. Next we factor in experience. If we set this in the Stormligh Archive era then both men would probably be even, experience-wise. Next, materials. Since the AonDor is weaker for Raoden, then let's only give Vasher 2500 Breaths, enough for the Fourth Heightening and to spare. This prevents Raoden from sneaking up on him, but does not cancel out the surprise factor of teleportation. Given these parameters, it would be a very fair fight, in which Vasher's blade-master and super-speed would edge out Raoden's teleportation and fireballs, with some handy commands of "Protect me," and "Strangle people who aren't me" thrown in. Even with the full might of the AonDor on Raoden's side, I see it hard for Vasher to lose if he can get just one Awakened object onto his target. Ranged fireballs and teleportation rocks, but if you're fast enough to dodge and can throw Invested object to latch onto your opponent, it wouldn't be a factor anymore. Vasher.

Marsh would probably win with compounding, but say he didn't move fast enough, then I would give Jasnah the win on this one. She can Elsecall into the CR at will, but it seems to be a process that takes some time, so let's not consider that a deciding factor. She can also heal most wounds, and she can Soulcast people into friggin' flames! With that power she could easily 1HKO Marsh. Marsh's spikes are invested, but he is not, so he would definitely be susceptible to this attack. However, he has all the powers of a Mistborn with some Feruchemy thrown in, so he only has to dodge her attacks (I think I remember Jasnah shooting the people, but that might just be a physical manifestation of something happening in the CR), shoot a few coins to distract her (ouch!), and then tap speed to crush her skull. But historically, Marsh doesn't like killing people. Marsh under Ruin's control did, but when given even the tiniest bit of freedom he tried to fight it. He might hesitate and give Jasnah her chance. However, in a strict power-on-power fight, he could take her out with little difficulty. Marsh.

Vin is a shoo-in on this fight. No matter how fast or skilled Denth is with a blade, Vin can Push it away, match his speed and strength with pewter, and fly through the air. Even with a fair bit of Breath, Denth doesn't stand a chance against Atium or steel, and Vin can 1HKO him with a coin to the face. Vin.

Kelsier ... well, my heart wants him to win, but given what's been posted about him not knowing about duralumin or electrum, I can see it going in Elend's favor. Add to that fact that Kel knows that Vin loves Elend, and his heart just wouldn't be in it. Since Elend has the added boost of strength from the Lerasium, he has a pretty clear edge. Hooooowever (you knew that was coming, didn't you) it's not quite the shoo-in we might expect. Allomancy is nothing but tricks, as the man once said. He can sneak and hide, whereas Elend likes to dress in flashy white and meet his opponents head-on. Since he doesn't know when Kel is going to strike, he can't be burning Atium all the time. So if Kel can sneak and hide and ambush, then he will win. Allomancy is not about who is stronger or has more metals, but about who has more skill. Kel has the most skill, years of assassination and thievery, where Elend only has a few years by the end of HoA, and he is used to facing foes head-on. The Inquisitors, after all, are not known for their subtlety. All things considered, and biased as this may be, I still hand this one too ... Kelsier.

Thanks for taking the time to read! Feel free to pick apart my analysis. :)

Edited by Shadowmancer
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4 minutes ago, Shadowmancer said:

This leaves both men weaker but by no means defenseless. Next we factor in experience. If we set this in the Stormligh Archive era then both men would probably be even, experience-wise.

White Sand is the only story in the time line farther back then Elantris, and even by the end of that story, Raoden was fast with Aons. Give him a couple thousand years of practice and, assuming he's still alive, Vasher's few hundred years are on the low end of the experience balancing here no matter how you slice it. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

White Sand is the only story in the time line farther back then Elantris, and even by the end of that story, Raoden was fast with Aons. Give him a couple thousand years of practice and, assuming he's still alive, Vasher's few hundred years are on the low end of the experience balancing here no matter how you slice it. 

I think I remember reading somewhere that it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at something. Even with the thousands of years Raoden will have by that point, there's a peak to any skill or ability. Leveling up maxes out somewhere, and I think both Vasher and Raoden hit it somewhere after the first hundred years. That's how I see it, anyway. Time makes you good, but only so good.

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46 minutes ago, Shadowmancer said:

I think I remember reading somewhere that it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at something. Even with the thousands of years Raoden will have by that point, there's a peak to any skill or ability. Leveling up maxes out somewhere, and I think both Vasher and Raoden hit it somewhere after the first hundred years. That's how I see it, anyway. Time makes you good, but only so good.

True, but you also have to consider the magics they use themselves. 

We see Vasher at near the height of his abilities. He understands as much or more than anyone else about Awakening. While there's definitely much more to Awakening to be discovered, Vasher himself realizes there's a lot he doesn't know. 

AonDor on the other hand... Is one of the most versatile magic systems we've seen. We only know of around 50 Aons. All with distinct effects. Raoden found books written completely in Aons. There are WoBs that say that AonDor is essentially a programming language. Aon Ene can be used to link Aons in chains. Aons don't only have modifiers, but entire Aons can be used to modify others. 

Raoden has had millenia to study and understand a system that was well documented and master it from the Elantris library. 

Awakening, in contrast, is a largely unexplored system. 

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Raoden has had millenia to study and understand a system that was well documented and master it from the Elantris library. 

Awakening, in contrast, is a largely unexplored system. 

Didn't consider that. And since Raoden can draw Aons fast, he could potentially write some very nasty "programs" in a matter of seconds. Siphoning off Investiture? Freezing time?? That makes me think about giving Vasher more Breaths, or at least letting him use Nightblood. 

Very interesting thing to think about, Awakening being largely unexplored. Which makes me wonder how it will feature come the Nightblood book we all want sooooo badly. I so want there to be some more Awakened objects, but not necessarily weapons. Like a mirror that critiques your outfit, or a shoe that ties itself. Mundane, self-aware objects that are incredibly Invested but don't really do anything super useful. Anywho, sorry for my ramblings. Thanks for the insight!

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I think if we take mistborn and convert it to vin, and wind runner to kaladin, it's pretty equal. Let's say both of them are full powered on an open plain. We have vin with coins and all that and kaladin can't run out of storm light. I think stormlight pretty much equalizes against pewter+ stormlight heals.so with infinite stormlight would win. Now assuming they start out with an equal amount to their respective powers. Kaladin is experienced with a spear, win with knives. Kaladin' spear(syl) converts herself into a shield to help him out. Vin's steelpushes get countered as soon as the coin touches kaladin's body, as he puts stormlight in it and it stays in place and pushes vin, or just falls to the ground.so steel pushing and knives are countered, but atium is a factor, she uses it and beats kaladin up until he is almost out of stormlight and she has no atium. So kaladin is low, vin is almost out of pewter, still has tin, she never had access to any time bubble metals in mistborn so leave that alone. Again they're about equal. now we're in a fairly equal fight, vin has enhanced senses and so does kaladin. Not much else with kaladin. His stormlight and her tin run out at the same time, he has a shardbalde that can transform into a shield,and she has so knive some non-metal powered experience. Kaladin has a ton of experience. She goes down. Essentially they beat each other into a one on one no power scenario. Take their powers away and kaladin wins, especially since he still has a shardblade and stormlight heals him.

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@Con578 I'll just leave this here. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1152#25

Quote

QUESTION

We were wondering who would win in a fight, a Mistborn or a Windrunner.

BRANDON SANDERSON

It would really depend on the situation. I would say the Windrunner would win on a battlefield and the Mistborn will when at sneaking around and slitting people’s throats.

Pretty sure in combat, Stormlight healing is what wins it for the Windrunner. 

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Kaladin Vs Arclo                   

Can't see Kaladin winning this one. Arclo is durable and versatile enough to give anyone trouble, and he beat two skybreakers without breaking a sweat. Maybe Kaladin could hold out a little while by reverse-lashing Arclo's bugs to different objects but he has no real way to kill Arclo even if he incapacitates him.

Vasher Vs Raoden

Vasher isn't getting past Raoden's shield aons, illusions, fireballs/energy bolts, teleblitzes, and whatever else Raoden happens to have in his toolbox. Vasher may have more experience but Raoden has too much raw power and he can stall Vasher indefinitely with shields and teleportation.

Marsh Vs Jasnah 

Jasnah hasn't shown the ability to soulcast at distances greater than a few feet and she's not battle trained. She gets peppered with coins/ Feruchemical steel blitzed pretty quickly. Plus I think that since Jasnah will see his spikes as part of him she will be unable to soulcast him with the spikes' investiture interfering.

Vin Vs Denth 

Vin wins any number of ways

Kelsier Vs Elend 

Kell ought to be able to take him. I think Elend is roughly equal to the Inquisitor Kelsier killed. Kelsier is much more experienced and much more capable with the two most important metals for a mistborn fight (Iron and steel)

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34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Con578 I'll just leave this here. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1152#25

Pretty sure in combat, Stormlight healing is what wins it for the Windrunner. 

Is that a Windrunner in full plate though?

 

1 hour ago, Con578 said:

Vin's steelpushes get countered as soon as the coin touches kaladin's body, as he puts stormlight in it and it stays in place and pushes vin, or just falls to the ground

Even if this is possible with Kaladin's powers, I don't think it's the kind of thing he could do constantly in combat. A reverse lashing prevents him from getting shredded with coins but it doesn't prevent Vin from using steel/iron to manipulate the thing he sticks the coins to since a reverse lashing wouldn't invest the coins.

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Kelsier Vs Elend.

First factor in the difference in raw power that clearly goes to Elend which would enable him to over power Kel rather quickly. As an added bonus atium, can be beaten and Elend knows how Kelsier does not so that cannot be seen as an advantage for kel. In terms of cunning and or Strategy While Kel is in fact quite devious and clever he is not as much of a natural mistborn as Vin is she was Elend's teacher as a result he can thjink in ways that kelsier would not be able to. Plus the addition of Duralumin puts Elend over the top and into victory.

Winner:Elend

Vin Vs Denth

It would be a tremendously close fight between the two of them.I think that it would be a mistake to dismiss the combination of power, experience, cunning and stamina.  Truie Vin has Pewter, but that will only go so far as a state of being Denth's speed and stamina will not go away like vin's will when she runs out of pewter. His spped could easily nullify steel and Iron Making him a rather difficult target to hit. He would see what Vin is doing with Metal and adjust to deal with it. If she flies away then he would win be defaul his awakening could also keep her grounded long enough to both land a lethal blow and finish the job. Atium would be tricky, but he is clever enough to figure out the randomization needed to fool it. In this close fight I believe that Denth would stick it out for the win. 

Winner:  Denth

Jasnah Vs Marsh

Another interesting and close match however with her shardblade, soulcasting power, and teleportation she can wear March down. She would soulcast the earth beneath his feet into mud and them into crystal trapping him and enabling her to close with the shardblade for the kill. 

Winner: Jasnah

Vasher Vs Raoden

I must agree that raw power is on Raoden's side, however with nightblood in tow the balance could shift in Vasher's favor overall however Roaden has the power and ability to use it plus elantrian healing which puts him over the top.

Winner: Raoden

Arclo Vs Kaladin

I must agree that Kal would have a rough time pinning Arclo down and delivering any sort of killing blow. The fact that he could effortlessly tilts the field in his favor and proves that surgebinders cannot really be a concern for him.

Winner: Arclo.

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Kaladin Vs Arclo

Kaladin's largest weakness against Arclo is that he lacks AoE. Arclo can just spread out and attack Kaladin. If Kaladin goes into the air, then really all Arclo needs to do is to wait until Kaladin is out of stormlight and is powerless, then kill him.

Vasher Vs Raoden

Raoden wins if he can manage to stay out of range of Vasher's awakened ropes and Nightblood and stuff. However, if Vasher manages to get in close, then he can tie Raoden's hands together with awakened ropes and then kill him with Nightblood. Although Vasher can run very fast with Awakening, teleportation trumps all.
Marsh Vs Jasnah 
Marsh easily. Marsh has compounding and good stuff like that, and although Jasnah has a Shardblade and teleporting, Marsh probably has feruchemical gold compounding, which allow him to survive a shardblade. I think Marsh has steel compounding as well, so the fight would be relatively short.
Vin Vs Denth 
Vin can kite Denth and shoot him with lots of coins. I don't think Denth has awakening, but even if he did he would still be powerless against something with much more range.
Kelsier Vs Elend 
Elend doesn't have much training, and while he has brute force, Kelsier has the skill and experience advantage. Still, Elend does have experience using more of the metals, so he can overpower Kelsier.
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25 minutes ago, cloudjumper said:

I don't think Denth has awakening, but even if he did he would still be powerless against something with much more range.

Denth was one of the Five scholars on Nalthis, along with Vasher, Shashara, Arsteel, and Yesteel. He's an old returned who will have breath and knows Awakening well. 

I agree with your assessment otherwise. 

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Kaladin vs Arclo

I already argued in a previous post.

Winner: Arclo.

Vasher vs Raoden

In a hand to hand combat Vasher would win but awakening is not combat oriented while Raoden can do practically anything with aons, he can defeat Vasher with long ranged attacks with little problem.

Winner: Raoden

Marsh vs Jasnah

This is a tough one, I am not sure about the spoiler policy so is all in spoiler tag:

Spoiler

Marsh has 22 spikes so he has most allomantic powers (some of them twice) and at least some feruchemical, I agree that if he can compound steel he would win, but I think we haven't see him use feruchemical steel, if he could use him he would have kill Elend in a blink.

Jasnah isn't a warrior, but soulcast is really powerful and Marsh would need a lot health in order to heal a sharblade injure, she can soulcast crystal or fire to slow marsh and hit him with the blade until he can't heal anymore, but she would need to be careful with his range attacks.

Winner: Jasnah

Vin vs Denth

I don't have anything to add here, Vin wins.

Kelsier vs Elend

Again in the spoiler tag:

Spoiler

Kelsier has more practise sneaking around before he gots his mistborn powers, and he is in peak of what a mistborn can do with steel and iron, also his planing and improvising skills are almost godly.

Elend gets some training before become a mistborn, as a mistborn he has the raw power, but very little practise or skill, and lack of battle-cleverness.He could have an edge using the metals Kelsier doesn't know.

Winner:Kelsier

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I think you guys are overrating Jasnah a bit here. She's powerful and has a potentially game-breaking ability in soulcasting, but she's untrained and Marsh has 22 heavily invested spikes on him that will prevent him from being soulcasted. He sees the spikes as part of him now and everyone else does the same, which ought to make the spikes part of him cognitively, preventing Jasnah from soulcasting him without his spikes. We also haven't seen Jasnah soulcast any invested individual at all, and Marsh is still an innate Seeker. In fact, one of her gems cracked when she soulcasted a vanilla human at close range. There is absolutely nothing indicating she can soulcast a Seeker like Marsh, let alone an inquisitor. She also has no real counter to a spray of coins. She won't be able to soulcast all of them before they reach her since each coin is a separate cognitive entity. Her shardblade is practically useless as well since Marsh has 5 minutes of Atium, far more than he needs to kill Jasnah, who isn't a warrior. And that's not even mentioning F-Steel which is an autowin.

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23 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

She's powerful and has a potentially game-breaking ability in soulcasting, but she's untrained and Marsh has 22 heavily invested spikes on him that will prevent him from being soulcasted. He sees the spikes as part of him now and everyone else does the same, which ought to make the spikes part of him cognitively, preventing Jasnah from soulcasting him without his spikes.

This is as much an assumption as my thoughts that the hole provided by hemalurgy will make it easier for him to be effected. Until Brandon provides an answer, or we see these interact in book, we don't know which way it would go. 

Quote

 She also has no real counter to a spray of coins. She won't be able to soulcast all of them before they reach her since each coin is a separate cognitive entity

Any Radiant who has achieved the blade has a perfectly suitable defense. We see Syl make an unbreakable shield instead of a blade. Ivory could do the same for Jasnah. 

Quote

Marsh has 5 minutes of Atium, far more than he needs to kill Jasnah, who isn't a warrior. And that's not even mentioning F-Steel which is an autowin.

Atium provides no defense against soulcasting beyond upping the stormlight cost. F-Steel on the other hand is why I revised my opinion towards Marsh winning. 

Edited by Calderis
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Kaladin v Arclo: Methinks I've heard of a fight like this before...

Vasher v Raoden: The thing with AonDor is that drawing Aons takes time. Once Raoden begins the first Aon, Vasher is going to close the distance between them very quickly. Awakened clothing is ready to defend against oncoming attacks, but it's barely necessary because Vasher finishes Raoden before the latter can get his third Aon off.

Marsh v Jasnah: Marsh's powers should be able to take Jasnah out from range while making him resistant to Soulcasting. Even if they engage in close-quarters combat, Marsh just has too many options.

Vin v Denth: Coin-slinging and flight versus a guy who's really good with a sword and making his clothing fight. This is going to be pretty one-sided.

Kelsier v Elend: Elend may have greater raw power, but Kelsier has much more experience fighting others with Allomantic powers, more combat smarts, and the willingness to fight dirty.

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Arclo vs Kaladin: As powerful and as good a fighter as Kaladin is he doesn't have much of a defence against Arclo's physiology and whatever it was he used to take down the two Skybreakers. So Arclo's the winner for me.

Vasher vs Raoden: If the fight is close range I'd give it to Vasher although it could potentially got to Raoden if he can draw the right Aon fast enough. If it's starting at a distance then Raoden has the advantage. Does Vasher have Nightblood? It's quite the game changer.

Marsh vs Jasnah: I think this fight could go either way depending on what happens. Marsh (I don't think) can affect something in the Cognitive Realm while Jasnah is able to enter it at will, although lacks experience, which gives her an advantage. In the Physical Realm Marsh is incredibly formidable and could overpower the Elsecaller but at the same time Jasnah is capable of manipulating the environment to trap or harm Ironeyes, not to mention her Shardblade. I'd call this a draw or inconclusive.

Vin vs Denth: If it's a close range start then definitely Denth, his Returned enhancements plus Awakening plus swordsmanship would take Vin out quickly, particularly if she's caught off guard. If it's a distance start then Vin, Denth only has so much of a defence against coinshots and even if he Awakened his clothing to act as a shield they're still made of cloth and can just be torn with enough force.

Keslier vs Elend: IMO this is another inconclusive. Kelsier definitely has more overall experience in battle but less experience with newer metals, some of which Elend knows not to mention he's at a power disadvantage. That being said, he's tricky and cunning. 

Notes: when did Marsh use Feruchemical steel? 

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35 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Notes: when did Marsh use Feruchemical steel? 

In his fight with Sazed in WoA. If you have your book I would appreciate if you (or anyone else) could check it out to see that I dont misremember.

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18 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

In his fight with Sazed in WoA. If you have your book I would appreciate if you (or anyone else) could check it out to see that I dont misremember.

I'm afraid I don't have a copy onhand but I can't recall Marsh using it. I can remember Sazed using it because it ran out before he could remove the linchpin spike.

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1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

In his fight with Sazed in WoA. If you have your book I would appreciate if you (or anyone else) could check it out to see that I dont misremember.

I checked and didn't see it, the only time he moves fast is this:

Spoiler

Sazed's steelmind ran out.
The rings had never been intended to last long, and his two extreme bursts had drained this one in seconds. He slowed with a dreadful lurch, but his arm was still raised, and he still had the strength of ten men. He could see the bulge of the linchpin spike underneath Marsh's robe. If he could just—
Marsh spun, then dexterously knocked aside Sazed's hand. He rammed an elbow into Sazed's stomach, then brought a backhand up and crashed it into his face.
Sazed fell backward, and his pewtermind ran out, his strength disappearing. He hit the hard steel ground with a grunt of pain, and rolled.

But it seems just allomantic pewter to me, I may have missed something though.

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49 minutes ago, Idealistic said:

I checked and didn't see it, the only time he moves fast is this:

  Hide contents

Sazed's steelmind ran out.
The rings had never been intended to last long, and his two extreme bursts had drained this one in seconds. He slowed with a dreadful lurch, but his arm was still raised, and he still had the strength of ten men. He could see the bulge of the linchpin spike underneath Marsh's robe. If he could just—
Marsh spun, then dexterously knocked aside Sazed's hand. He rammed an elbow into Sazed's stomach, then brought a backhand up and crashed it into his face.
Sazed fell backward, and his pewtermind ran out, his strength disappearing. He hit the hard steel ground with a grunt of pain, and rolled.

But it seems just allomantic pewter to me, I may have missed something though.

Hm... I might be misremembering. I wish I had my own copy with me.

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