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Shadows of Self Dislike?


Toaster Retribution

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5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I have seen a bunch of people on here disliking Shadows of Self. I have no idea why, I think it is the best Era 2 book to be honest. So, I just wonder, why is it that people don't like SoS?

I'm not alone! 

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Hmmm...for me, it's not that I dislike it, because I really do like it. It's way better than most books out there's because it's written by Brandon Sanderson, of course. :P

For me, that one just dragged down in the middle. I couldn't quite tell where it was going for awhile, and I got a little bored reading it for some reason. But, it got a whole lot better, and I absolutely loved how Steris started to evolve into the adorable lady we all know and love. But it definitely wasn't a bad book, I just think it paled in comparison with the first and third.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Calderis lol

Edited by StrikerEZ
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Seriously, it's dark without relying on the crutch of adult oriented content.

It shows that Sazed, no matter how good his intentions, is capable of some pretty messed up levels of manipulation. 

The reveal of Bleeder's identity, and the subtle clues leading up to that point. 

It just... Man I love that book. 

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I enjoyed SoS. And I thought it transitioned really well into BoM.

But...Virtually every character, except maybe Wayne, felt to me like they were almost completely rewritten after AoL. There are very good reasons for this; AoL was orginally planned as a stand alone one-off novel. It was only given sequels because it received such an overwhelmingly positive response that not expanding it would've been perceived as irresponsible. Marasi, Steris, and Wax undergo extreme off-screen changes after AoL and, in my opinion, it made the first half of SoS cumbersome and awkward to read while re-learning the characters.

No, I don't really think there's a good way this could've been avoided. My way of resolving this awkwardness on my Mistborn reread was to adjust my reading order to: AoL, the original trilogy, then SoS and BoM. I enjoyed SoS so much more for not having just finished AoL that I probably finished it in half the time.

I weep for people with eidetic memories who can't utilize this memory-relaxation technique...

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I actually felt the character changes were natural. We barely got to know Steris in AoL and in the intervening months she's begun to relax, so we see more of her character.

Marasi spent a good portion of the first book wanting to prove herself and struggling with both hero worship and a crush. She's since gotten over the latter two, received the first, and also been given responsibility as an officer. All of which has changed her.

As for Wax, my feeling was that we never really met him in book one; he was mourning and trying to suppress his personality to do the 'right thing' by his house. By the time we get to book two he's found his balance.

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In my opinion Shadows of Self is the strongest of the three. I really liked the musings on God and why bad things are allowed to happen and doesn't take a more seen role in our lives. My personal favorite part is:

"But the powers that I am, the essence of my self, cannot allow me yo take sides. Already I fear that I have made things too easy for men. This city, the perfect climate, the ground that renews … You were to have had the radio a century ago, but you didn’t need it, so you didn’t strive for it. You ignore aviation, and cannot tame the wilds because you don’t care to study proper irrigation or fertilization.

 

“The … radio? What is that?”

 

You don’t explore, Harmony continued, ignoring Wax’s confusion. Why would you? You have everything you want here. You’ve barely progressed technologically from what I gave you in the books. Yet others, who were nearly destroyed …"

Edited by Ammanas
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I agree with @Ammanas that SoS is perhaps the strongest one of Era 2 to date.  However, it was a slog to get through, and very few characters whom I'd liked came through looking pretty.  Wayne in particular bore the brunt of this, I found, but both Harmony and TenSoon took severe hits to their respective pedestals as well.  (Especially because manipulating someone to kill their wife unawares is stormed up, even more so when circumstances preclude all other alternatives) It's "Waxilium Ladrian and the Terrible, Horrible, No-Good, Very Bad Weekend."  

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As someone who disliked SoS quite a bit, I will share my personal problems:

- It was an episode of "24". Everything happened over an incredibly short period of time and it felt forced/rushed.
- Steel running is OP and Bleeder should/could have been invincible.
- Harmony could have solved this issue easily; he could not see/feel Bleeder but once she struck somewhere all he had to do was track her using other people's eyes/minds.
- Going along with above, when you include a nearly omnipotent and omniscient being in a book then you reeeeaaaaaallllllyyyyy have to stretch to make the issue seem difficult.
- The scene where the kandra "priest" is revealed to the crowd is not believable to me; everyone watching reacted in a perfect way for the plot but, in reality, I feel like the mob would freak out at seeing some random guy stab a priest to death in front of them.
- There was no true sense of danger to me. Bleeder obviously refused to kill Wax so any action sequence had no suspense. The ultimate plot of "overthrowing" the government did not really seem like a calamity. If Bleeder had succeeded then... uh. Yeah. I did not feel invested in the success of the team.
- I shipped Wax and Marasi.

It has been awhile since I read SoS so I'm sure if I reread it I would remember other reasons for my dislike. Brandon himself said he had trouble writing SoS and that is why he wrote BoM then went back to SoS. When I finished SoS for the first time I felt as if I had read my first bad Cosmere book and once I found out Brandon had issues writing SoS I went "Ah, I noticed".

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@CaptainRyan So I am not trying to argue, but would like to bounce some ideas around and see what you or anyone else thinks of them. Like I said I am not really the in depth cosmere theory sharder.

1.Sometimes things take months of planning and the execution is short. It happens all the time from demolition to hosting the Super Bowl.

2.Bleeder fell to classic hubris. She didn't feel the need to dodge. 

3. Assuming people were wearing the special Harmony ear rings. I think thats how it works and not everyone wears those.

4. I think the book mentions often how fallable Harmony is.

5. I imagine deer in the head lights, everyone frozen for a moment to be believable. Also didn't the needle that was injected show the Kandra in its true form for a quick moment?

6. I think the Marasi and the Governor subplot helps with this. Change for the better was coming. If Bleeder succeeded it would be tough to rebuild.

7. I think the Marasi love interest would be a easy out for Sanderson. I personally really like the Steris love story. She is a girl that has a lot of love to offer and is a great person. Society just cannot see it. I really enjoyed seeing the seeds in this book and the further development in the next.

Edited by Ammanas
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I'm one of the people who disliked SoS, though that's partly for reasons rather unrelated to the book - the reveal about Bleeder being Wax's wife was spoiled to me before I picked it up. As a result, not only did all the foreshadowing of this reveal feel horribly blatant to me, but I felt like I was reading a Greek tragedy, the kind where you know that no matter what happens, it's all going to end horribly and everyone will be feeling awful about themselves at the end of it.

Which brings me to the next point, which is that for me SoS was just plain unfun to read. While I neither want nor expect every book I pick to be a barrel of laughs, I do want to be entertained, and SoS was too glum to do that. I do recall there being some great moments (MeLaan, and the stuff about Marasi figuring out the crowd at the "governor's" speech was being manipulated with allomancy), but overall, the book felt grim and almost depressing. Yes, it is a serious Cosmere book, and it's not bad, but... I just don't enjoy myself while reading it the way I do when I read other Cosmere books.

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47 minutes ago, Rasarr said:

While I neither want nor expect every book I pick to be a barrel of laughs, I do want to be entertained, and SoS was too glum to do that. 

Maybe its bc I have read so many much more darker, but I found it to be rather light hearted. Especially compared to books like Best Served Cold,  and most of KJ Parker's etc. Thanks for the post though. Appreciate your insights!

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On 22 juli 2017 at 2:48 AM, Ammanas said:

3. Assuming people were wearing the special Harmony ear rings. I think thats how it works and not everyone wears those.

Harmony should be able to watch any place he wants (except for metal covered ones) but he is not omnipotent, and can not watch everything at once. I think you are right about needing an earring. Ruin could not read the minds of someone who wasn't spiked if I remember correctly (and even then his mind-reading skills were not all that great).

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3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Harmony should be able to watch any place he wants (except for metal covered ones) but he is not omnipotent, and can not watch everything at once. I think you are right about needing an earring. Ruin could not read the minds of someone who wasn't spiked if I remember correctly (and even then his mind-reading skills were not all that great).

He couldn't read minds at all. His ability to speak into the minds of people was limited to those with spikes or cracks in the soul, but hearing words that were not spoken allowed was limited to Preservation, who in turn could not speak to anyone outside the Cognitive Realm. 

Harmony can do both, because we'll... Harmony. 

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8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He couldn't read minds at all. His ability to speak into the minds of people was limited to those with spikes or cracks in the soul, but hearing words that were not spoken allowed was limited to Preservation, who in turn could not speak to anyone outside the Cognitive Realm. 

Harmony can do both, because we'll... Harmony. 

Well, the last part of my post was correct then. Ruins mind-reading skills were indeed not that great :-)

I guess Preservation (and by extension Harmony) would require cracks/spikes just like @Ammanas said then.

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I don't think it's just about the story being bleak.  @CaptainRyan raised some really good points.  Harmony's direct involvement was problematic for believably purposes; he wanted Bleeder eliminated as a force against him, but he wasn't really willing to commit any resources to the task.  He could've enlisted Marsh's help as soon as Bleeder went rouge, months before the story began, and ended everything without much of a struggle or loss of life.  

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It seems like Marsh has is own agenda (currently in the south pole) and only works with Harmony when he feels like it (based on his conversation with Marise at the end of Alloy of Law). Also, as Harmony has noted in Bands of Mourning, most of his resources are devoted to stopping that force that is going under the name of Trell.

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Just now, Ammanas said:

It seems like Marsh has is own agenda (currently in the south pole) and only works with Harmony when he feels like it (based on his conversation with Marise at the end of Alloy of Law). Also, as Harmony has noted in Bands of Mourning, most of his resources are devoted to stopping that force that is going under the name of Trell.

Well, his resources are going to stop the red haze or whatever it's called, not Trell. They could be the same thing, and several people believe they are, but I don't think it's been confirmed.

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3 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Well, his resources are going to stop the red haze or whatever it's called, not Trell. They could be the same thing, and several people believe they are, but I don't think it's been confirmed.

I assumed it was one and the same bc in the epilogue of Bands of Mourning Marise was devoting herself to researching Trell right before the prison scene with Mr. Suit. You are right it has not been confirmed they are the same, but I believe there is evidence that points towards that conclusion.

Edited by Ammanas
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1 minute ago, Ammanas said:

I assumed it was one and the same bc in the epilogue of Bands of Mourning Marise was devoting herself to researching Trell right before the prison scene with Mr. Suit. You are right it has not been confirmed they are the same, but I believe there is evidence that points towards that conclusion.

Yeah, I know it is highly likely that they are the same thing, but we can't state it as fact without it being explicitly stated. I honestly have no idea what the red haze is, but I doubt it's Trell. I think it might be something else entirely, but I don't know what.

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Just now, StrikerEZ said:

Yeah, I know it is highly likely that they are the same thing, but we can't state it as fact without it being explicitly stated. I honestly have no idea what the red haze is, but I doubt it's Trell. I think it might be something else entirely, but I don't know what.

Your right of course. I can't pass it off as fact. My personal idea that there is a force that is using "Trell" as a mask or a disguise, but it has nothing to do with the religion mentioned in the original trilogy. I think it could be another shard holder? 

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Just now, Ammanas said:

Your right of course. I can't pass it off as fact. My personal idea that there is a force that is using "Trell" as a mask or a disguise, but it has nothing to do with the religion mentioned in the original trilogy. I think it could be another shard holder? 

A popular idea is that Trell was a religion planted by a certain shard. Kind of like a sleeper agent. So, when this Shard wanted to come back and mess with a planet, they would already have a religion they could just take over and have pawns to do their bidding.

Spoiler

Most people believe this to be Autonomy, as do I, which makes sense considering Paalm's actions and motivations.

 

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