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Kaladin is more honourable than Dalinar?


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33 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I wouldn't call him "most depraved", unless I missed some of the flashbacks that gave a different picture of him. He was bloodthirsty, but he always had several redeeming traits. He was fair and meritocratic; his elite guard is made of both light and darkeyes. He shows no qualms about killing foes in battle, and can resort to questionable tactics, but I've not seen him deliberatly hurt civilians, or betray an ally, or stuff like that. For the standards of bloodthirsty warlords, he wasn't a bad person. I would say his core personality remained the same, only his goals became more noble and he learned some political skills.

No, his core personality has changed quite a bit. 

Edit: I'm trying to defame Dalinar. I loved him more after I read what he had transformed from, but Dalinar is complicated. 

29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That comment wasn't meant about him specifically. I just mean that anyone can change if it's what they want. 

Most people don't want to change. 

That said, I haven't read the Thrill (Unfettered II), but I have a very strong feeling that Dalinar's flashbacks are going to go to much darker places than we expect. 

They are much darker than you think. Dalinar was not the most deprived, but he was far more dishonorable in his youth than Kaladin has ever been. But I still say Kaladin throughout has been as least as honorable as the Dalinar, except when he helped plan killing Elohkar, an act he did not go through with and prevented in the end. Kaladin has been emotional, but he has also kept every promise he has made, save one, to the best of his ability. That is honor and why Sil chose him. I agree Dalinar as he is now is as honorable as Kaladin, but he is not more honorable. 

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1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

For the standards of bloodthirsty warlords, he wasn't a bad person. 

Best quote ever.

I think much of the purpose of the Stormlight archive up until now has been to show the importance of honor. I think that soon, especially dealing with Szeth, it will start to show where Honor may not be the best policy. I know that the first 5 book ark will be focused on Honor and the second on Cultivation, but I think that even now, we are beginning to see the issues with Honor. So I think that Dalinar would be the most honorable since he sticks to the Codes, where Kaladin would be the better person.

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21 minutes ago, Figberts said:

Best quote ever.

I think much of the purpose of the Stormlight archive up until now has been to show the importance of honor. I think that soon, especially dealing with Szeth, it will start to show where Honor may not be the best policy. I know that the first 5 book ark will be focused on Honor and the second on Cultivation, but I think that even now, we are beginning to see the issues with Honor. So I think that Dalinar would be the most honorable since he sticks to the Codes, where Kaladin would be the better person.

Other than nearly killing Eloikar, where has Kaladin been dishonorable? 

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1 minute ago, eveorjoy said:

Other than nearly killing Eloikar, where has Kaladin been dishonorable? 

You could make an argument for the fact that he dislikes Lighteyes because they are Lighteyes, and the fact that he doesn't turn Graves in to Dalinar. Possibly the fact that he hijacked Adolins boon in order to punish Amaram as well. 

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12 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Other than nearly killing Eloikar, where has Kaladin been dishonorable? 

He worked for Sadeas, and betrayed Sadeas. Same with Amaram.

 

29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Wait, what? 

I believe I first saw this on an old state of the Sanderson. However since I can't find it, don't quote me on it.

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47 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

You could make an argument for the fact that he dislikes Lighteyes because they are Lighteyes, and the fact that he doesn't turn Graves in to Dalinar. Possibly the fact that he hijacked Adolins boon in order to punish Amaram as well. 

Dalinar has shown prejudice against Darkeyes. It's a benign prejudice of the privileged assuming those below them deserve their lot, but it is there especially in WOKs. Is it dishonorable to hate those who have harmed you or to look down on those of a lesser class? No. It's wrong, but it is not a matter of honor. The fact that Kaladin hated lighteyes but still saved Dalinar shows his honor. Honor is doing what is right because it is right and that is what Kaladin did despite the cost to himself and his men. 

35 minutes ago, Figberts said:

He worked for Sadeas, and betrayed Sadeas. Same with Amaram.

He never promised Sadeas he wouldn't save Dalinar. Sadeas barely knew who he was, therefore he could not betray Sadeas. Nor did he betray Amaram. Amaram betrayed him. Kaladin considered taking revenge, but he tried what he thought was the legal method instead. He made mistakes, but they were not dishonorable. The only dishonorable action is that he did not turn in Graves, but I'm sure he did after he saved Elohkar. Sorry, but he seems as honorable to me as Dalinar if not more so. 

Dalinar because of his past shame, decided to use his power to do what is right. That is easier than doing what is right after being kicked to the ground and trod upon. The fact that Kaladin would save those he did not like, which includes Dalinar because he didn't like him or trust him until Dalinar freed him, shows him to be more honorable. 

But Dalinar is awesome, so I see it as more as a tie.

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30 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

You could make an argument for the fact that he dislikes Lighteyes because they are Lighteyes, and the fact that he doesn't turn Graves in to Dalinar. Possibly the fact that he hijacked Adolins boon in order to punish Amaram as well. 

I agree with you about he should turn Graves in to Dalinar, but I don't think that the fact he has prejudices against lighteyes is dishonor, I mean, he protect them anyways so he follow his code.

23 minutes ago, Figberts said:

Same with Amaram.

To be fair Amaram betrayed him first, and IIRC Kaladin didn't do anything deshonorable about him, mainly because Syl convinced him, but anyways he stick to his code.

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14 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Honor is doing what is right because it is right and that is what Kaladin did despite the cost to himself and his men. 

Here's where we run into that pesky subjective morality issue again, because as has been shown with Szeth, Honor isn't even doing what you believe is right if you've sworn differently. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Dalinar truly believes in Vorinism in tWoK. You see his implicit bias in his surprise at Darkeyed commanders in the visions.

It's the visions themselves that start undermining thus though. He knows from God's own mouth that his God is dead. He's seen, again by visions granted by his God, that in the past, men could write, women were Radiants and fighters, and that eye color meant little. 

He promotes Kaladin as high as he possibly could for being a Darkeyed man. He seems to pay far more attention later in the books to character than eye color. 

Yes he still has an implicit bias that is ingrained and hard to overcome, but for a man in his fifties who's lived a life in a religious society that is foundationally racist/classist/eyeist/whatever you want to call it, the visions have made him remarkably progressive. 

 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Here's where we run into that pesky subjective morality issue again, because as has been shown with Szeth, Honor isn't even doing what you believe is right if you've sworn differently. 

 

Did Szeth kill for Honor or because the Law of his people demanded Justice for his crime of believing a lie? The problem with discussing why Szeth was truthless is so much is still unknown. However, much is implied.  Szeth only thinks of Honor during his prologue for the Way of Kings, on page 10. 

--He had heard the Voidbringers could hold it perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared they didn't. His honor demanded they did.

Now he was killing on command not because of his honor, but because the Shin justice system declared he his honor was wrong and the Voidbringers were not back. As soon as he learns from Kaladin the Voidbringers and Radiance are returning like believed, he realized he wasn't truthless and no longer had to follow his unjust punishment.

I contend then that justice, which is the virtue of the Skybreakers, is the reason Szeth followed his punishment, not honor. Justice is payment and punishment under the law, but not all Laws are honorable. Had Szeth followed his honor he would not have excepted the punishment of being truthless. His honor said he was right and the Voidbringers were back.

Quote

 

Dalinar truly believes in Vorinism in tWoK. You see his implicit bias in his surprise at Darkeyed commanders in the visions.

It's the visions themselves that start undermining thus though. He knows from God's own mouth that his God is dead. He's seen, again by visions granted by his God, that in the past, men could write, women were Radiants and fighters, and that eye color meant little. 

He promotes Kaladin as high as he possibly could for being a Darkeyed man. He seems to pay far more attention later in the books to character than eye color. 

Yes he still has an implicit bias that is ingrained and hard to overcome, but for a man in his fifties who's lived a life in a religious society that is foundationally racist/classist/eyeist/whatever you want to call it, the visions have made him remarkably progressive. 

 

True, Dalinar is progressive after a darkeyed slave saves his life. However, he did not assume Kaladin was the cause of his rescue at first and was shocked when he saw how well the slaves fought and how disciplined they were. Dalinar is not as prejudiced as Kaladin, but it is there. My point was, being prejudice is not inherently a dishonorable trait. Calling a man who has been as harmed as Kaladin has by the upperclass dishonorable for distrusting those who have so awful abused him is simply incorrect. Also, Kaladin is learning to let go of his prejudice by getting to know Dalinar and befriending Adolin and Shallan.

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First off, I agree with the rest of your post

3 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Did Szeth kill for Honor or because the Law of his people demanded Justice for his crime of believing a lie? The problem with discussing why Szeth was truthless is so much is still unknown. However, much is implied.  Szeth only thinks of Honor during his prologue for the Way of Kings, on page 10. 

This is not the only place. As @Everstorm Entropy pointed out on the previous page 

Quote

"You will still yourself," Taravangian said.  "And you will return to my side."

Szeth did as his master commanded.  What were a few more deaths?  Just another set of screams to haunt him.  He could hear them now, coming from beneath the beds, behind the furntire.

Or I could kill him. Szeth thought. I could stop this.

He nearly did it.  But honor prevailed, for the moment.

He views following those commands as a requirement of his honor 

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28 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

True, Dalinar is progressive after a darkeyed slave saves his life. However, he did not assume Kaladin was the cause of his rescue at first and was shocked when he saw how well the slaves fought and how disciplined they were. Dalinar is not as prejudiced as Kaladin, but it is there. My point was, being prejudice is not inherently a dishonorable trait. Calling a man who has been as harmed as Kaladin has by the upperclass dishonorable for distrusting those who have so awful abused him is simply incorrect. Also, Kaladin is learning to let go of his prejudice by getting to know Dalinar and befriending Adolin and Shallan.

No, dalinar was progressive well before that, and he had no qualms about giving important positions to darkeyes before. we get hints that he would have been more progressive had society not frowned on it.

As for the example you quote, it's only natural to assume that a bunch of slaves didn't act of their own initiative - after all, isn't the whole point of slavery that slaves obey orders? - or that slaves used as cannon fodder should not have fighting skills - after all, who would waste competent fighters as bridgemen? who would spend money to give military training to men who are not expected to fight and are expected to die soon? that's not prejudice, it's simply a statistically sound assumption.

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5 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

No, dalinar was progressive well before that, and he had no qualms about giving important positions to darkeyes before. we get hints that he would have been more progressive had society not frowned on it.

As for the example you quote, it's only natural to assume that a bunch of slaves didn't act of their own initiative - after all, isn't the whole point of slavery that slaves obey orders? - or that slaves used as cannon fodder should not have fighting skills - after all, who would waste competent fighters as bridgemen? who would spend money to give military training to men who are not expected to fight and are expected to die soon? that's not prejudice, it's simply a statistically sound assumption.

No, it isn't prejudiced to assume people will act lowly because they are lowly. Just like it isn't prejudiced to assume lighteyes are corrupt because every lighteyes you have known has been corrupt. Oh, wait, yes it is. It's assuming that just because a person is in a certain group they will act like the stereotypes of said group. "The point of slavery," you say that like it is an acceptable practice when the Way of Kings plot shows it is very much an evil thing. Dalinar accepted an evil institution, therefore, it wasn't prejudiced? And It''s not prejudiced to assume that someone who is disabled can't contribute to society because so many disabled can't. Cough..Ablism...Cough, cough. And it not prejudiced when you force someone in their sixties to retire, even if they can't afford it and can work because people all retire at that age. Cough...Ageism..Cough, cough. It's prejudice to assume how an individual will act or their motives based on their classification.

Dalinar hired darkeyes to do the jobs they were allowed to do based on their caste. Kaladin is the first person he has ever, from what we know from the books, raised to a position high above their caste. Yes, he is progressive, but to say he always was before he met Kaladin is wrong. If he were he would have been doing than feeling really bad that bridgeman had to die so highlords could win gem hearts. I'm not saying Dalinar needed to be a social justice warrior on Roshar, but he had prejudices and he still does. All humans have biases. He is working through them and they are not a great as Kaladin's, but he does have them. Kaladin is just as human and having prejudices built up after years of betrayal and abuse does not make him less honorable than Dalinar. That was my point.

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I will not comment onto whether or not Kaladin or anyone on the cast is a racist or not. While Brandon did say most of them were, I personally find the term reducing and inappropriate. I find it too easy to refer to individuals merely embracing the beliefs they were taught are right since birth as racist. I find it equally easy to call out a guy having been betrayed by every single supposedly honorable individual from a given "ethnic" group a racist. I think reality is slightly more complex then words are allowing us to grasp. 

8 hours ago, Gloomspren said:

I definitely think Adolin's decision (because it was a conscious decision no matter how "tired" he was) has put him down in the honor rankings. While I am all for vigilante justice and Sadeas dying bc he is a major creep, I don't think this fits with the gist of what honor seems to be in this book, which is protecting even those they hate and uniting people and yada yada.

So my ranking would be Dalinar at the top because he has Honor's spren/weird piece of him and has been exemplified as a character even Kaladin looks up to and wants to emulate, then Kaladin because he protected Elhokar, then Adolin. 

Why not talk about Shallan too while we're at it? Is she honorable for killing her father? He had just murdered his wife and crippled his son, so I would say yeah. And for killing her mother? Yeah she tried to kill her first. But I think she becomes less honorable purely because a huge part of her powers and character is lying. Honorspren hate Cryptics, her spren. So idk if she should be lower or higher than Adolin, but closer to the bottom. 

One problem I find is the supposition being honorable equates being good and rightfully fulfilling a purpose implies being honorable at all cost, even when the cost surpasses the benefit. In shorts, while it is true Adolin killing Sadeas was not a "honorable" action as per the term has been defined within the book, it certainly was the morally right decision, the one which ultimately saves innocent life. 

I also feel the third oath to the Windrunners is being slightly distorted here. Yes, they ought to protect those they hate, as long as it is right. Is it right to protect a man having promised he would do his very best to destroy your father's attempt at unity, he would rage war to your princedom, slaughter your family and anyone whom happens to stand in between? Who would Adolin be protecting had he allowed Sadeas to walk free? Sadeas himself? He is not an innocent man, he does not deserve to be protected. He would have killed more innocent people to achieve his goals, so in the name of which ideology should he be protected and kept alive at all cost?

Honor? Well, honor is not the answer to everything nor is he perfect. If honor is what prevented Dalinar from taking actions against Sadeas, then honor can be just as misguided as any ideology you hold tight to yourself without ever allowing yourself the possibility to back down and re-evaluate. Blind faith is a very dangerous tool as we see with Szeth and, in a lesser way, with Dalinar. Both characters might be honorable, but they have both refused to compromise their honor which has led innocent people to die.

I thus disagree Adolin ought to be a villain or a reprehensible individual for what he did. Yes, he killed him, yes he was the owner of his actions though I would argue his response was more instinctive than reflected much like "fight or flight" response when the brain short-cuts all rational thinking to give way to instinct. Something snapped into Adolin, so no it wasn't entirely a completely reflected decision.

As for Shallan, no she is not a honorable individual which isn't say she never acts in a honorable manner. I simply means she will do what she thinks is best no matter the circumstances: if being honorable is the best course of action, she will be honorable, but if killing it the right one, she will kill. Honor simply isn't something which she factors when it comes to her decision making. Adolin does factor it, even if he often disagrees with it. I would thus say he is more honorable than her, but I nonetheless consider those two characters to be more equipped than either Dalinar or Kaladin as I find tunnel vision and withholding any ideology too strongly as ultimately wrong.

In shorts, honor is a great guide, but one must not push to the extreme. Kaladin, I would think, wouldn't get too zealous about it and probably has a better sense of how to wiggle around with it. Dalinar is more like Szeth: it is all or nothing.

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I wouldn't call him "most depraved", unless I missed some of the flashbacks that gave a different picture of him. He was bloodthirsty, but he always had several redeeming traits. He was fair and meritocratic; his elite guard is made of both light and darkeyes. He shows no qualms about killing foes in battle, and can resort to questionable tactics, but I've not seen him deliberatly hurt civilians, or betray an ally, or stuff like that. For the standards of bloodthirsty warlords, he wasn't a bad person. I would say his core personality remained the same, only his goals became more noble and he learned some political skills.

Dalinar does hurt at least two civilians in a brutal and horrible manner in an action I consider nonredeemable, especially considering he never suffered penance for it. Needless to say if he goes harsh on Adolin for murdering Sadeas (and I think he will), I will call him out for his hypocrisy. 

This being said, yes he was a fair judge of talent and he was discriminatory, this is true, but he was a man whom would shy from nothing to get what he wants. He would do anything to get it, anything, even the vilest actions.

 

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Going to the dictionary. 

Honor as a verb --

  1. regard with great respect.
    "Joyce has now learned to honor her father's memory"
     
  2. fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement).
    "make sure the franchisees honor the terms of the contract"
So I think the definition of honor that Syl and these books are concerned with is the second definition, filling an obligation or keeping an agreement. Syl binds things. Only one character focuses on promises they have failed to fulfill in the past and does all he can to make sure he does not fail his responsibility in the future: Kaladin. Kaladin is so obsessed with his failures many of us fans believe one of his oaths will be about getting past this problem. The reason he lost Syl was he made two promises that worked against each other. So yes, in the case of Grave and nearly killing Elohkar he did act dishonorably. But other than that he has been as honorable as Dalinar by trying to keep every promise he made from giving Gaz his bribe to saving Bridge Four, to always protecting those under his care including Elohkar eventually. 
 
Dalinar is honorable by the time we read about him in WOKs and WOR. However, I think he and Kaladin are equals. Although, Dalinar did not start that way and I am not referring to his biases. Having biases does not determine honor. I say this because Dalinar did not always follow the codes. Dalinar nearly killed his brother to have Navani. It was only after it got to that point that he began to bind himself and control the Blackthorn. That is when Honor began to matter to him. 
 
As for the rest of the characters, you could argue each has honor in their own way, but Honor does not matter to Adolin, Shallan, Renarin, Szeth, Loper, etc like it matters to Kaladin and Dalinar.
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55 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

No, it isn't prejudiced to assume people will act lowly because they are lowly. Just like it isn't prejudiced to assume lighteyes are corrupt because every lighteyes you have known has been corrupt. Oh, wait, yes it is. It's assuming that just because a person is in a certain group they will act like the stereotypes of said group. "The point of slavery," you say that like it is an acceptable practice when the Way of Kings plot shows it is very much an evil thing. Dalinar accepted an evil institution, therefore, it wasn't prejudiced? And It''s not prejudiced to assume that someone who is disabled can't contribute to society because so many disabled can't. Cough..Ablism...Cough, cough. And it not prejudiced when you force someone in their sixties to retire, even if they can't afford it and can work because people all retire at that age. Cough...Ageism..Cough, cough. It's prejudice to assume how an individual will act or their motives based on their classification.

Dalinar hired darkeyes to do the jobs they were allowed to do based on their caste. Kaladin is the first person he has ever, from what we know from the books, raised to a position high above their caste. Yes, he is progressive, but to say he always was before he met Kaladin is wrong. If he were he would have been doing than feeling really bad that bridgeman had to die so highlords could win gem hearts. I'm not saying Dalinar needed to be a social justice warrior on Roshar, but he had prejudices and he still does. All humans have biases. He is working through them and they are not a great as Kaladin's, but he does have them. Kaladin is just as human and having prejudices built up after years of betrayal and abuse does not make him less honorable than Dalinar. That was my point.

No, that's a completely different line of reasoning there. assuming something based on reasons is never prejudiced. not keeping an open mind and not being ready to change your assessments once you have more informations, that's prejudiced, but to make assessments based on incomplete informations is necessary to survival. you can't just wait to have all informations before coming to any kind of decisions. Really, what does assuming slaves aren't trained to fight has to do with forcing elders to retire?

Consider an enterprise looking to hire an engineer and going through applications. Sure, it is entirely possible that the guy who never attended even high school and has a past as drug smuggler did actually have a passion for engineering, and he read all kinds of books by himself during his free time, and he really regrets his past as drug dealer and want to work extra hard to atone for his past misgiving. It is absolutely possible, yet nobody will ever interview him. Why? because you don't have time to interview all the whacky applicants in the hope for a miracle. Because the guy with a degree in engineering is, as far as you can know, much more reliable. Because as much as you should keep an open mind, you have to draw a line somewhere and start making assumptions.

Is this behavior prejudiced? No. At least, not any definition of prejudiced I want to accept. It is just necessary for most social interactions with anyone you don't know particularly well.

To sum it up: it is not prejudice if both those conditions happen: 1) it is a reasonable deduction based on the informations you have, and 2) you are willing to revise it as soon as you get new information. Dalinar had no reason whatsoever to suspect that those slaves were anything more than average slaves, and can't be faulted for being surprised by something extremely unlikely.

 

EDIT:

Quote

Dalinar does hurt at least two civilians in a brutal and horrible manner in an action I consider nonredeemable, especially considering he never suffered penance for it.

I missed that scene. Was it in the unfettered antology, or i forgot about it?

Edited by king of nowhere
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7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

To sum it up: it is not prejudice if both those conditions happen: 1) it is a reasonable deduction based on the informations you have, and 2) you are willing to revise it as soon as you get new information. Dalinar had no reason whatsoever to suspect that those slaves were anything more than average slaves.

2

My whole point was just because Kaladin had a clear bias that did not make him any less honorable compared to Dalinar. Dalinar had biases too based on his life experiences. The same can be said of Kaladin. The first lighteyes he knew either had to be tricked into helping his family or betrayed him when her father passed. I not saying Kaladin's parents were right to do what they did, but the point is the one lighteyes who was kind to his family didn't really want to help him. The second group of lighteyes he met tried to ground his family under the heal of crippling poverty and practically sentenced his brother to death. However, even then Kaladin hoped there were some lighteyes who were good like the Ardents promised there were. He believed this of Amaram and never blamed him for Tien's death even though Amaram didn't keep his promise to protect his brother. He then gave everything to save Amaram who then proceeded to kill all his friends and doom him to the awful life of slavery. When Kaladin saved Dalinar he had every reason to believe from his life experience that Dalinar wouldn't return the favor. That I think is why Brandon chose to have Dalinar give up his shardblade for Kaladin and his men. Kaladin knew the true value of a shardblade and seeing that made him rethink everything he had been painfully taught about lighteyes his entire life. 

Now, I agree with Maxal that we have argued over this point too much. The biases that grow in people as products of their society and environment is a far too complex subject to fully explore here. I merely brought it up to make it clear it is not fair to judge Kaladin less honorable because he has a very human prejudice. This is the last I will argue over Kaladin and Dalinar's biases. I may have more to say on the thread, but I think I have covered all the ground I want to on this issue. 

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I just wanted to point out that when Tor or anyone says a character is more honorable because they follow those oaths, that is inverting the cause and effect. They bond a spren because of how they act when they don't have those Oaths sworn. They swear those oaths because it is part of who they are, who they want to be, not for vice versa. Sure, Kaladin may save even people he hates because he has sworn an oath, but he was willing to do that before he swore it. It is also no less honorable than when Dalinar withholds from killing Sadeas or anyone else he hates, even though he has not sworn an Oath. I agree with what someone (I apologize, I forgot who) said - Honor is choosing the harder path because your morals demand it, even if there is no one there to condemn you. Szeth's morals place following the law absolutely above the lives of innocents. You can disagree with the ordering of his values, but he shows more honor than almost any character in this regard. For example, which of us would choose to allow a beloved family member, a young daughter, to be brutally slaughtered when not doing so would result in the deaths of dozens of innocent orphans? It's a nightmarish conundrum, based on the conflict between our morals of the value of lives and the value of our family. Would you break the law to provide evidence to incriminate someone? Would you torture someone to gain crucial information to save lives? Szeth faced these kinds of decisions every time he killed, and held true to the morals he had. That may not be honorable to us because we have different values, but it is honorable to him.

Spoiler

Yes I used a White Sands reference.

Edited by 18th Shard
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27 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

My whole point was just because Kaladin had a clear bias that did not make him any less honorable compared to Dalinar. Dalinar had biases too based on his life experiences. The same can be said of Kaladin.

yeah, I agree on that. But adolin kept having prejudices on dalinar and especially adolin even after they showed times and again that they were good people. It's like, you see a laborer and you assume he doesn't have much instruction, because most laborers don't; no prejudice so far. Then this guy quotes stuff from the divina commedia. Instead of saying "well, I have to revise my opinion of him", you think "he must have memorized a few lines to pretend to be more learned than he actually is". At this point becomes a prejudice, because the conclusion that the guy is not learned is no longer the most reasonable conclusion according to what you know, and you're not willing to reevaluate your assumption.

I can understand kaladin, and his life eperience is certainly a huge attenuating circumstance for his prejudice, but it is there. Personally, I don't give him such a huge black mark for his role with elokar, because he was actually trying to figure out the right thing to do and, knowing elokhar, it's not far-fetched to assume that it would have been a good thing to remove him.

So kaladin has two grey marks, which he seems to have overcome by the end of WoR. I can't think of any bad mark against dalinar in the first two books; of course he has plenty of black in his past, but he seems to have left that behind him

 

EDIT: Also, I personally do not call honorable to upheld honor before reason. honor, like everything, should be evaluated in context. if you cause a lot of harm and no good whatsoever to keep up with a positive ideal, then you are not uphelding that ideal, you are doing something stupid and pointless. so I'm not calling szeth honorable, because what he does doesn't have enough of a point to be sensible behavior. Honor must be good for something to be honorable. at least that's my definition. foor exampple, elend relinquishing the throne is somewhat of a grey area, because his argument (if I'm not willing to step down when voted against, then I become a tyrant; and these other guys may have a point) makes sense.

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8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I can't think of any bad mark against dalinar in the first two books; of course he has plenty of black in his past, but he seems to have left that behind him

Dalinar even states frankly that one of the reasons a relationship with Navani is so difficult is less about perception, and more about moving the line he's chosen as acceptable. Because if he moves one, what's to stop him from moving the others and becoming the "pitiless killer" of his youth. A man who he "never wants to be again." 

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14 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

So kaladin has two grey marks, which he seems to have overcome by the end of WoR. I can't think of any bad mark against dalinar in the first two books; of course he has plenty of black in his past, but he seems to have left that behind him

I don't think one of those gray marks should count against Kaladin, but we will put that aside. I have argued that issue enough. Kaladin by the end of WOR is as honorable as Dalinar if we are going to let go of mistakes in the past. However, if we are going to count the mistakes a tortured youth, dealing with trauma, as a gauge of his honor then Dalinar youth as a "pitiless killer" would need to be considered as well. I will not spoil what I read in "Unfettered II" but I will say Dalinar was not someone who would have worried about allies and civilians in his youth. Wait until you read how he won Oathbringer. Pitiless killer indeed. When comparing the mistakes Kaladin made in his youth (because he is still a youth) to the mistakes Dalinar made, Kaladin comes across as far more honorable. Adolin said he was like his father when he killed Sadeas and he was right. Dalinar has changed fundamentally from who he once was and has become an honorable man.

But you can't say we count what we have seen of Kaladin and declare him less honorable because of it. But Dalinar, it couldn't have been that bad and he has put that behind him so it doesn't count. It's not a fair comparison.

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2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I missed that scene. Was it in the unfettered antology, or i forgot about it?

I'll PM you. It is getting spoiler-y for the others.

32 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Adolin said he was like his father when he killed Sadeas and he was right. Dalinar has changed fundamentally from who he once was and has become an honorable man.

I disagree. Adolin would have never done what his father did in The Thrill. Never. The difference in between Dalinar and Adolin is while yes, Adolin is capable of brutal murder, he only does it after everything he holds dear is threatened, after everything he is trying to protect and withhold is about to go into smoke because of one man petty wishes. He didn't do it to gain an advantage or for himself: he did it because if he were to allow Sadeas to continue, more innocent would have died. His father might have been further undermined in a time where he needs unity.

What Dalinar did in The Thrill, he did it for himself, to gain something for him. He wasn't protecting anyone nor trying to remove a real threat to innocent people. He was going after innocents and slaughtering them because he actually enjoyed killing people.

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1 minute ago, maxal said:

I disagree. Adolin would have never done what his father did in The Thrill. Never. The difference in between Dalinar and Adolin is while yes, Adolin is capable of brutal murder, he only does it after everything he holds dear is threatened, after everything he is trying to protect and withhold is about to go into smoke because of one man petty wishes. He didn't do it to gain an advantage or for himself: he did it because if he were to allow Sadeas to continue, more innocent would have died. His father might have been further undermined in a time where he needs unity.

What Dalinar did in The Thrill, he did it for himself, to gain something for him. He wasn't protecting anyone nor trying to remove a real threat to innocent people. He was going after innocents and slaughtering them because he actually enjoyed killing people.

It has been months since I read the Thrill, so you may have a point. All I can say is, I doubt Adolin knows the full extent of what his father did, so believes he is telling the truth. I just took it too much for granted.

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