phoenix2563

[OB] New thought on dawnshards

54 posts in this topic

I found the quote.  Peter did say that "I'm pretty sure that the Dawnshards were just the same as the Honorblades".  Which of course tramples all over my theory.  Would still like to hear it from Brandon though, especially since Peter didn't seem 100% sure.

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30 minutes ago, phoenix2563 said:

I found the quote.  Peter did say that "I'm pretty sure that the Dawnshards were just the same as the Honorblades".  Which of course tramples all over my theory.  Would still like to hear it from Brandon though, especially since Peter didn't seem 100% sure.

Can you provide the quote?

Also, would there be cultivation blades? :P

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It's from the link Page runner provided:

26
Botanica
What are the Dawnshards? (Are they spren? Certain weapon that is crucial to defeat Odium?) Do they relate to the Dawnsingers and Dawnchant?

Peter
I’m pretty sure they’re just the same as the Honorblades. It says “dawn” because they were there at the beginning of when humans came to Roshar.
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On 26/07/2017 at 10:34 AM, phoenix2563 said:

It's from the link Page runner provided:

26
Botanica
What are the Dawnshards? (Are they spren? Certain weapon that is crucial to defeat Odium?) Do they relate to the Dawnsingers and Dawnchant?

Peter
I’m pretty sure they’re just the same as the Honorblades. It says “dawn” because they were there at the beginning of when humans came to Roshar.

See, I am not convinced by that.  In Dalinar's visions, he says it'll be tough for Dalinars without the Dawnshards.

Plus, shardblade/Honorblade are blades.  Dawnshard might refer to the Heralds or the highspren..?

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10 minutes ago, axcellence said:

See, I am not convinced by that.  In Dalinar's visions, he says it'll be tough for Dalinars without the Dawnshards.

Plus, shardblade/Honorblade are blades.  Dawnshard might refer to the Heralds or the highspren..?

I agree. Tanavast speaks of the Dawnshards as if they are gone. 

The Honorblades aren't gone. 

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5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I agree. Tanavast speaks of the Dawnshards as if they are gone. 

The Honorblades aren't gone. 

Quote
 

 

Quotes
 

 

A mythological treasure ... much like the Dawnshards or the Honorblades. Certainly worth seeking, but only with great caution.Shallan[1]

 

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.from The Poem of Ista. (Jasnah's note: I have found no modern explanation of what these 'Dawnshards' are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.)[2]

 

You might be able to get him (Odium) to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And ... without the Dawnshards ... Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone.A man claiming to be the Almighty, speaking to Dalinar[3]

 

Speculation
 

Considering the fact that Shardblades and Shardplate are sometimes simply called 'Shards', it is possible that the Dawnshards refer to the Honorblades carried by the HeraldsShallan, however, believes that the two objects are entirely separate.[1]

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Dawnshards

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I think it very likely that at least some of these ideas will turn out to be accurate.

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On 7/25/2017 at 7:33 PM, axcellence said:

Can you provide the quote?

Also, would there be cultivation blades? :P

Edgedancer Blades are already Cultivation Blades. Actually I would assume that there are three different "types" of Shardblade considering they are more or less made out of God metal: pure Tanavastium blades (like Syl), pure Cultivationium blades (Wyndle) and Honor/Cultivation alloy blades since we know some spren including possible Bondspren are mixtures of different Shards + pre-Shattering remnants of investature

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7 hours ago, Zalocx said:

Edgedancer Blades are already Cultivation Blades. Actually I would assume that there are three different "types" of Shardblade considering they are more or less made out of God metal: pure Tanavastium blades (like Syl), pure Cultivationium blades (Wyndle) and Honor/Cultivation alloy blades since we know some spren including possible Bondspren are mixtures of different Shards + pre-Shattering remnants of investature

I think that some blades/spren are "more" of Honor than Cultivation, and vice versa, but I think all spren contain some of each.  Why would a pure spren of Cultivation care about oaths or ideals?   Also, even though Syl calls herself an honorspren, I think it is more because of how she sees herself, rather than due to her true nature as a spren.  See the below WoB's.  They aren't the most solid, but they do seem to point to not any spren being 100% of either Honor or Cultivation:

Quote

 

QUESTION

Is Cultivation's Shardholder still alive.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question, what do you think?

QUESTION

I want to say, but that's based on my knowledge before I read Lift's interlude from Words of Radiance. Now I am leaning towards no. Based on that interlude, it looks like spren have essence from both Honor and Cultivation. It's almost like they exist in a spectrum, on one end of which is Honor, and on the other - Cultivation; so there are spren that are, for the lack of better example, 90% Honor and 10% Cultivation, and there are spren that are 15% Honor and 85% Cultivation.

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's a very astute observation

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='cultivation'

 

 

 

Quote

 

QUESTION

A question related to that. There’s an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called honorspren, and then Nohadon talks specifically about honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

[Source]

 

 

 

Edited by phoenix2563
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Here's a goofy thought.

is it plausible that The Poem of Ista was written by a Dysian Aimian, and that the snippet of the poem describes a cremling crawling up a human-sized staircase with one of the black spheres Gavila has in its grasp? :ph34r:

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On 8/24/2017 at 2:48 AM, Zalocx said:

Edgedancer Blades are already Cultivation Blades. Actually I would assume that there are three different "types" of Shardblade considering they are more or less made out of God metal: pure Tanavastium blades (like Syl), pure Cultivationium blades (Wyndle) and Honor/Cultivation alloy blades since we know some spren including possible Bondspren are mixtures of different Shards + pre-Shattering remnants of investature

I personally assume that there are 9 different types of shard blades (since bondsmiths do not get 1) each with its one alloy of Honor and Cultivation metals.

Or possibly 8, if the Skybreakers never fell...

Edited by FiveLate
Continuation.
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Why wouldn't the Skybreakers have an alloy? The Recreance was far after the Shattering.

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19 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

Why wouldn't the Skybreakers have an alloy? The Recreance was far after the Shattering.

One of the Words of Radiance (in-book) quotes implies that one of the 10 orders of the KR didn't fall. There's a theory that the Skybreakers are that one order, so no current Shardholder would have a Skybreaker blade.

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Yes, I'm familiar with that theory, but didn't know you were referring only to dead shardblades only. Living Skybreaker blades will still likely be an alloy, per your argument, when manifesting in the Physical realm.

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2 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

Yes, I'm familiar with that theory, but didn't know you were referring only to dead shardblades only. Living Skybreaker blades will still likely be an alloy, per your argument, when manifesting in the Physical realm.

Yes, I edited to reference dead shard blades since theoretically none of the Skybreakers broke.   But 9 or 8 either way.

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@phoenix2563

Why do you read the second WoB as indicating that all spren are "alloys"? The wording, "of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them" to me doesn't exclude the possibility of a 100% honor spren, and in fact implies that for some spren that is the case. And this the more concrete of the two WoBs.

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Hey sorry if this was mentioned, I have a signed copy of Words of Radiance from the midnight release and in the sticky I left him I asked what he could tell me about dawnshards and his reply was that one dawnshard is not like the others. This holds credit to the 9 being used for binding the unmade and the 10th being used for something more... interesting 

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@Emerald101 yes you are right that the above wob's do not deny that a spren cannot be 100% honor or 100% Cultivation, but neither do they confirm it.  It does seem to confirm that there is a spectrum.  

I personally find it unlikely due to how intertwined in the underlying magic we find the influences of both Honor (more of a cognitive shard) and Cultivation (more of a physical shard).  Even "honorspren" are cousins of windspren, which seem to be more elemental rather than cognitive in nature, and therefore more related to Cultivation.  Shallan's spren, Pattern actually seems more related to Honor on many levels as it is so much more cognitive in nature.

Edited by phoenix2563
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I always saw Honor as much more of a spiritual shard than a cognitive one. Honor is all about bonds, and connections are spiritual.

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17 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

I always saw Honor as much more of a spiritual shard than a cognitive one. Honor is all about bonds, and connections are spiritual.

Yeah. The morality issue of Honor, the part that requires thought, is absent. 

Honor is about the bonds that hold things together. Maintain promises and expectations. 

I agree it's far more Spiritual than Cognitive 

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17 hours ago, Sirscott13 said:

Hey sorry if this was mentioned, I have a signed copy of Words of Radiance from the midnight release and in the sticky I left him I asked what he could tell me about dawnshards and his reply was that one dawnshard is not like the others. This holds credit to the 9 being used for binding the unmade and the 10th being used for something more... interesting 

Has the picture been uploaded?

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Yeah. The morality issue of Honor, the part that requires thought, is absent. 

Honor is about the bonds that hold things together. Maintain promises and expectations. 

I agree it's far more Spiritual than Cognitive 

This makes sense. How would this relate to Cultivation being better than Honor at seeing the future? Because it would seem to imply the opposite.

Edited by Crucible of Shards
Clarity
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Just now, Crucible of Shards said:

This makes sense. How would this relate to Cultivation being better than Honor at seeing the future?

I don't know. It's only speculation, but I think it has everything to do with the intent. 

With Honor's focus on bonds, I think there's a major component looking backwards. Maintaining the bonds that have been formed. Keeping promises made. 

Cultivation, on the other hand, is all about the future. Laying the ground work so that things grow the way you want them too. 

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