Taldain's Isolation

[Calderis]

We know that Autonomy likes to intervene in the affairs of other worlds. And we also know that Khriss cannot return home as Bavadin has effectively cut off access to Taldain by traditional means. 

I just stumbled across this WoB 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178#8

Quote

QUESTION

If a Shard were to divest itself from a planet, would the perpendicularity there disappear?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Normally the shardpool would cease to exist, but there are circumstances that could prevent the shardpool from disappearing.

This makes me think that Autonomy didn't isolate Taldain, at least not as her primary goal. 

She left. 

Edit: We know that over time the intent of a Shard will wear away at the Vessel. I've always thought that Autonomy, with it's focus on freedom would be the weakest of these on the vessel and allow it the most freedom to act. I'm beginning to wonder if I was wrong though. The freedom to act as she wills I don't doubt, but I believe that there is a pressure exerting itself on Bavadin. 

The intent of Autonomy is self reliance and freedom from outside control/oppression. I think it's possible that over time, having invested into Taldain, Bavadin may have begun to see having invested, and therefore being confined to Taldain, as a form of oppression in and of itself.

While the system of magic relied on her, and indeed, the unique ecosystem of Taldain seems to rely on her investiture, the lack of freedom of movement may have come to be seen as a prison of sorts and her intent to maintain self rule, even from a system she created, pushed her to leave.

Additionally her investiture forced those on Taldain to become reliant on her investiture, thereby reducing the autonomy of those living there. 

I think that she is Trell, and that the focus on freedom from Harmony is due to that. I also think that this is turning into a universal view of the Shards, and while her intervention is hypocritical, she is not going to willingly invest in another world, as it would limit her freedom, and impose her investiture onto the system, creating the very situation she's now trying to undermine in other worlds.

While her actions themselves may not be as limited by her intent as other Shards are, her intent is still having a drastic effect on her perceptions. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Calderis

[StrikerEZ]

I don't even know what to say. This absolutely blew my mind. I guess we haven't seen Taldain recently (around the time AU was written), so we don't really know if they still have Sand Mastery. If this is the case, I'm sure that the Investiture would've stopped fueling the sand, so possibly Sand Mastery would've died out as they used up all the sand, turning the entire desert black. This could be really interesting, as white sand would become really rare and valuable to find a collect for Sand Masters. It'd be a finite resource, but not super finite, considering there's an entire island that's mostly a desert to get the sand from.

[Calderis]

@StrikerEZ I stumbled on that WoB and kinda froze. I completely understand. 

Taldain is the earliest in the Cosmere we've seen if I remember correctly. That or Sel... So depending on how long ago she left, even if there's still white sand, there may not be sand masters. 

[Andy92]

Could be more backing behind the "Trell is Autonomy" theory, and Bavadin is the force invading Scadrial. 

[Ari]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@StrikerEZ I stumbled on that WoB and kinda froze. I completely understand. 

Taldain is the earliest in the Cosmere we've seen if I remember correctly. That or Sel... So depending on how long ago she left, even if there's still white sand, there may not be sand masters. 

That's certainly a possibility. The other one is that you can't get to Taldain by traditional means because Bavadin's perpendicularity lines up with Taldain's main star.

[Pattern]

5 hours ago, Ari said:

The other one is that you can't get to Taldain by traditional means because Bavadin's perpendicularity lines up with Taldain's main star.

Well, Khriss was able to leave Taldain, most likely using the perpendicularity. Starlight from the main star is a carrier of Investiture, that does not mean that the perpendicularity has to be inside the star. Also Darkside has its magic, although another kind of. So they also somehow get Investiture, without ever getting light from the main star.

Taldain (White Sand) was the earliest in the cosmere, Elantris 10th anniversary edition also has an Ars arcanum and a map underwritten by Nazh, so we can assume that Khriss has left Taldain at this point and visited Sel.

Unfortunately we don't know when Bavadins isolation policy started and whether Kriss was able to return to her home inbetween. If it's recent, then Trell being Bavadin and the unreachability of Taldain because the shard has just left, removing the perpendicularity in the act, would fit together.

If it's an old thing (we have thousands of years to cover between White Sand and Mistborn Era 2), it could still be the case but then the question arises what Bavadin did all that time away from Taldain.

[Calderis]

I've been thinking about this all day, and was hoping to get more input, but so far these are my thoughts. 

We know that over time the intent of a Shard will wear away at the Vessel. I've always thought that Autonomy, with it's focus on freedom would be the weakest of these on the vessel and allow it the most freedom to act. I'm beginning to wonder if I was wrong though. The freedom to act as she wills I don't doubt, but I believe that there is a pressure exerting itself on Bavadin. 

The intent of Autonomy is self reliance and freedom from outside control/oppression. I think it's possible that over time, having invested into Taldain, Bavadin may have begun to see having invested, and therefore being confined to Taldain, as a form of oppression in and of itself.

While the system of magic relied on her, and indeed, the unique ecosystem of Taldain seems to rely on her investiture, the lack of freedom of movement may have come to be seen as a prison of sorts and her intent to maintain self rule, even from a system she created, pushed her to leave.

Additionally her investiture forced those on Taldain to become reliant on her investiture, thereby reducing the autonomy of those living there. 

I think that she is Trell, and that the focus on freedom from Harmony is due to that. I also think that this is turning into a universal view of the Shards, and while her intervention is hypocritical, she is not going to willingly invest in another world, as it would limit her freedom, and impose her investiture onto the system, creating the very situation she's now trying to undermine in other worlds.

While her actions themselves may not be as limited by her intent as other Shards are, her intent is still having a drastic effect on her perceptions.

Edit: added these thoughts into the OP

Edited July 15, 2017 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution]

This basically answers a question I put up in the Mistborn section yesterday, so, thanks! 

But, at the same time, wouldn't Khriss know if Bavadin left Taldain and removed the perpendicularity? She seems to think that Bavadin is actively blocking it.

[Ari]

3 hours ago, Pattern said:

Well, Khriss was able to leave Taldain, most likely using the perpendicularity. Starlight from the main star is a carrier of Investiture, that does not mean that the perpendicularity has to be inside the star. Also Darkside has its magic, although another kind of. So they also somehow get Investiture, without ever getting light from the main star.

Taldain (White Sand) was the earliest in the cosmere, Elantris 10th anniversary edition also has an Ars arcanum and a map underwritten by Nazh, so we can assume that Khriss has left Taldain at this point and visited Sel.

Unfortunately we don't know when Bavadins isolation policy started and whether Kriss was able to return to her home inbetween. If it's recent, then Trell being Bavadin and the unreachability of Taldain because the shard has just left, removing the perpendicularity in the act, would fit together.

If it's an old thing (we have thousands of years to cover between White Sand and Mistborn Era 2), it could still be the case but then the question arises what Bavadin did all that time away from Taldain.

Khriss escaping without dying into the Cognitive Realm doesn't necessarily mean that Bavadin's perpendicularity wasn't originally inside the star. (In fact, there's a WoB about light from Taldain's star being its primary form of investiture that you could see as backing this up) Remember, it is possible using certain types of Investiture to create your own one-way perpendicularities. (see Jasnah in WoR and her flashback "extra scene" that may or may not feature in Oathbringer- she is unable to get back into the Physical Realm easily after her escape) Assuming this is how she left, even though she has since gained a lot of knowledge, it's possible that Taldain's Cognitive Realm is now more dangerous than it was before, or simply that there are risks to going back that Khriss isn't willing to take, possibly because it's not really her "home" anymore, or that she legitimately hasn't found a way to exit Taldain's Cognitive directly onto the planet yet.

I will, of course, concede that it could have been moved inside the star at some point, but it would be very surprising if that point was prior to White Sand, given that the entire magic system is driven by algae in the sand absorbing sunlight. I don't know where you'd expect the perpendicularity to be located if not inside the star.

You're right though that we should pay careful attention to the Lost Metal, of course, as Bavadin is IMO the leading Trell candidate.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Ari

[Pattern]

Our next chance to get really more information will be The Lost Metal. We have such a big time gap between White Sand and Mistborn Era 2 that nearly anything is possible. Perhaps Bavadin just got bored with Taldain during those millenia and decided to leave. Or she is still there and Trell is something else entirely (there are still some shards left to enter the stage). 

@Calderis: Your interpretation of the intent of Autonomy is quite fleshed out but also very special. It nearly equates Autonomy with Isolation, which can be done but is only one of many possibilities. It definitely vibes with the fact that she isolated Taldain from the rest of the cosmere. On the other hand Bavadins' policy suppresses autonomous actions of worldhoppers and it stalls the advance and prosperity of a whole planet, forbidding autonomous development.

Another variable: Bavadin is a dragon. We have no idea how a shard affects a dragon vessel. Her somewhat hypocritical policy hints that there is not just the shard acting but also still the will of the vessel.

@Ari: The fact that the sun is the primary source of Investiture doesn't mean it is also the perpendicularity. Mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

Compare the mists on Scadrial with the Well of Ascension. The mists were a part of Preservation and also a source of Investiture (for Vin) while Preservations' perpendicularity was at the well. Investiture in general was pulled from the spiritual realm using metals as an enabling agent/filter (like a catalyst, just that they are used up in the process).

Of course it is possible to enter the Cognitive Realm with some magics, perhaps darkside magic also has the possibility. Khriss would be able to return though, also through a dangerous Cognitive Realm, she even did navigate it on Sel with the Dor raging (Investiture of two shards, not just one, though rather mindless).

Edited July 15, 2017 by Pattern

[Ari]

You wouldn't be able to return without a set perpendicularity if whatever got Khriss into the CR works the same way as Jasnah's trip into the Cognitive, and if you tried to return through one that's in the star, you'd just suicide in spectacular fashion. It's possible that there's a way to generate a temporary perpendicularity from the Cognitive side, but we've never seen it done before. It could be that such a way exists and Bavadin has a workaround that stops it from functioning in the local cognitive realm to Taldain.

I agree that the star being a source of investiture doesn't guarantee it's a perpendicularity. However, it's pretty good evidence, as a lot of the time investiture does channel through the perpendicularities. I'll see your example of Scadrial's mists, and refer you to both Atium at the Pits, and Stormlight coming through Highstorms. (FYI, this forum isn't spoiler-gated for works that aren't new, but good on you for putting in the effort) In fact, the mists are the only case I can think of when we knew where a Perpendicularity was, and we didn't manage to link a manifestion of matter-based investiture (ie. solid, liquid, or gaseous investiture as opposed to kinetic investiture) back to it. Even on Nalthis, we suspect the dyes they're using in Hallandren are made from flowers that are growing using liquid Endowment. It's possibly they're somehow linked of course, but it's never explained if so.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Ari said:

However, it's pretty good evidence, as a lot of the time investiture does channel through the perpendicularities. I'll see your example of Scadrial's mists, and refer you to both Atium at the Pits, and Stormlight coming through Highstorms.

You're making an assumption here without realizing it. Highstorms are not Honor's perpendicularity. 

Cultivation's we know is in the Horneater Peaks, and Honor's moves. But if Honor's was the highstorm itself, Jasnah Couldn't have used it to appear in the mode of the Unclaimed Hills at the end of WoR.

We don't know as much about Perpendicularities as as we thought we did. 

Considering the nature of Taldain's investiture, until it can be shown that they're able to make a temporary perpendicularity as per Jasnah, the most likely scenario of leaving involved Autonomy's perpendicularity.

1 hour ago, Ari said:

In fact, the mists are the only case I can think of when we knew where a Perpendicularity was, and we didn't manage to link a manifestion of matter-based investiture (ie. solid, liquid, or gaseous investiture as opposed to kinetic investiture) back to it. Even on Nalthis, we suspect the dyes they're using in Hallandren are made from flowers that are growing using liquid Endowment. It's possibly they're somehow linked of course, but it's never explained if so.

Yes investiture can manifest in multiple forms. Honor's perpendicularity shows that while the liquid form is a common happen at the points of Perpendicularities, it is not a universal rule. The tears manifest near Edgli's perpendicularity is a theory (which I believe) that formed when we thought that all such places were pools. We now know that that's not true, so we can't assume there's a pool there.

5 hours ago, Pattern said:

Your interpretation of the intent of Autonomy is quite fleshed out but also very special. It nearly equates Autonomy with Isolation, which can be done but is only one of many possibilities.

Not Isolationism. Non-reliance. There's no problem with her being involved, the moment she becomes invested in world to the point she can't leave, or people rely on a system tied to her, rather than their own abilities, there is a problem. 

5 hours ago, Pattern said:

On the other hand Bavadins' policy suppresses autonomous actions of worldhoppers and it stalls the advance and prosperity of a whole planet, forbidding autonomous development.

If she isolated the world, but remains yes. If she left, it's not a policy issue, she's forcing them to do it on their own, which fits her intent. 

5 hours ago, Pattern said:

Another variable: Bavadin is a dragon. We have no idea how a shard affects a dragon vessel. Her somewhat hypocritical policy hints that there is not just the shard acting but also still the will of the vessel.

As far as I'm aware, this is speculation. Has this actually been confirmed and I missed it? 

[Pattern]

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As far as I'm aware, this is speculation. Has this actually been confirmed and I missed it?

I think there is a WoB, somewhere in connection with Bavadins' gender. I try to find it.

Edit: Bavadin as a dragon is only suspected because of her gender duality and shapeshifting to different personae. This could also be in the range of Bavadin's powers as a shard though. I interpreted the WoB not to think too much about Bavadins gender as a confirmation she is non-human.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Pattern

[Khyrindor]

I don't think it's been confirmed that she is a dragon, but it's an interesting theory (we know that not all the Shards have human Vessels). Some WoBs I remember are "Trell has been many things over the eons" which fits nicely with that weird one about Bavadin having entire pantheons dedicated to her, in which all the members are her as well (male and female). We don't really know too much about dragons yet, other than that they can appear as human, so we can't say for sure that that's what it is. I agree that something fishy is going on,, though.

 

[Toaster Retribution]

We don´t know what Bavadin is. We cannot even be sure about her gender. Brandon once said that he was fond of her though. Wonder if that is because he knew how much confusion she would create?

[+Extesian]

@Calderis it's a lovely theory that immediately clicked as being sensible, but also as not quite matching particular things I've read. Here's a few of them. 

Quote

Autonomy’s policy of isolationism in recent times (in direct contrast to her interference with other planets, I might add) has prevented travel to and from Taldain for many, many years.

Arcanum Unbounded

Quote

QUESTION

Is Bavadin the only shard on Taldain?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He is the only shard on the planet.

QUESTION

Is he the sun?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO

Quote

QUESTION

Are there other shards in the Taldainsolar system?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Now that's a clever question. There is only one for that solar system. There are other places with only one. It's not uncommon. We've gone to places with more than one because that is where the conflict is cosmere-centric.

Quote

Q: Would someone with enough knowledge be able to use Autonomy’s investiture if Taldain’s star could be seen from his world?
A: Ok so I’m on a world and I see Taldain’s star, are you asking if someone could use the investiture? Oh ok I see. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. That’s good! You stumped me. I haven’t gotten that question before. I would say yes, if the light particles are reaching you. I mean technically you could use the light from one of those stars to power a solar sail so…

Quote

Q: Will we see any Shardholders beyond the three already at work? Specifically, will we see Bavadin? 
 
A: You will see other Shards. Bavadin is on the planet Taldain, where White Sand takes place.

Quote

Q: I am space nerd with a love of fantasy, so; Why is scadrial prime example planet to invent space travel. Is its allomancy/ferruchemy/hemalurgy combination more suitable for that kind of technology or do they have other incentives to invent space travel other than regular technology development? Is it related to the intervention of unknown metal/shard/beings we saw?
 
A: There are a bunch of reasons.
The most technologically advanced of the planets (Taldain) is extremely isolationist because of its Shard, while Harmony is very interested in the progress of his people.
Scadrial has an advanced understanding of metallurgy, and for many years was quietly open to visitors from across the cosmere. In the modern era, that has enhanced. It's a much safer place to visit than, say, Sel, Threnody, or First of the Sun.
There are other reasons, too, which we'll get into as the world progresses. Having some prominent cosmere-aware people pulling strings behind the scenes is a big help. If you know other worlds are out there, and are populated, then you're more likely to push toward space travel.

So I think you see what I'm getting at. everything about Autonomy, from three brief wording in AU to the WoBs is using present tense. The last one particularly uses present tense while talking about the isolation of Taldain, saying to me that the 'present' in that present tense is not White Sand says, but 'modern' Cosmere. Buuuut probably can't rule out Autonomy doing that sometime in the timeline, the way to tied in the Intent makes some sense. I just don't think it is the cause of the "policy of isolationism".

So I like it, I feel the evidence says its not the case. And while I know that WoB, it has got me thinking again about other possibilities, like Endowment.

But once again a nice, creative, enjoyable and upvoteable theory brother

[Calderis]

@Extesian trust me, since I posted this I've looked over all of them. The last one is the only one I hadn't found. 

I think that from Khriss' perspective, the "policy of isolationism" would be impossible to determine without being able to verify that nothing on Taldain has changed, which she is not able to do. 

And even that last one I think that even that doesn't eliminate it. Whether she still resides there, as the source of the investiture on the planet, even in absentia she would still be "Taldain's Shard."

So while I definitely agree it isn't proven and I don't claim such, I till think it's a possibility. 

[+Extesian]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

@Extesian trust me, since I posted this I've looked over all of them. The last one is the only one I hadn't found. 

I think that from Khriss' perspective, the "policy of isolationism" would be impossible to determine without being able to verify that nothing on Taldain has changed, which she is not able to do. 

And even that last one I think that even that doesn't eliminate it. Whether she still resides there, as the source of the investiture on the planet, even in absentia she would still be "Taldain's Shard."

So while I definitely agree it isn't proven and I don't claim such, I till think it's a possibility. 

The last one was the most compelling because it relates the two things (the rest could just imply at the time of White Sand). But I certainly agree it doesn't disprove anything, Brandon's warned us about takingthe exact wording of his WoBs too seriously and Khriss just may not know. So yeah while I think the evidence weighs against it being the cause of the 'policy' its definitely still possible. And until we know it's wrong I feel comfortable in liking it

[Ari]

Yeah, it's a fair cop that it's not confirmed that Honour's mobile perpendicularity actually is a single, moving highstorm. It seems very heavily implied, but it is not yet confirmed.

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, Ari said:

Yeah, it's a fair cop that it's not confirmed that Honour's mobile perpendicularity actually is a single, moving highstorm. It seems very heavily implied, but it is not yet confirmed.

If that were true, Jasnah should have appeared in front of Hoid in the middle of a Highstorm. 

This did not happen. 

[The One Who Connects]

Have the WoB in Question. Spoilers for size because good grief

Spoiler

Question

Is it possible that someone could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

...Can we know how?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have?

Question

Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So you’ve adopted the term “Shardpool.” That was never really my term, but I’ve started using it. What happens with a Perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You’ve seen another one--

Question

Yeah, yeah I know these.

Brandon Sanderson

You know which one I’m referencing?

Question

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

That you didn’t see a Pool from?

Question

Oh wait… [Laughter]

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, he knows, so… We’ll move on.

Question

Why??!! [general protest, laughter]

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance.

Argent

There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but Honor’s Perpendicularity moves.

Question

Woah...so...Highstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

[hems and haws]

Question

So, I don’t know if this is a RAFO sort of question, but you call them Perpendicularities, will we see this sort of thing created?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, Perpendicularities can be created. You’d need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini Perpendicularity and slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

Question

So it’s just a question of skill, not a question of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It’s hard to pull off...but some of the powers are built to do it.

[+Extesian]

I did a theory on this a few months back. 

I think it's not a settled thing by any means but it may give background into what Calderis is arguing. 

[Andy92]

I still feel like that Perpendicularity has to do with the Stormfather. You have this giant spren that Honor sort of dives into after being Splintered...so you'd end up with this large concentration of Investiture that can move (I'm assuming) because it's a spren. 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I still feel like that Perpendicularity has to do with the Stormfather. You have this giant spren that Honor sort of dives into after being Splintered...so you'd end up with this large concentration of Investiture that can move (I'm assuming) because it's a spren. 

This seems plausible as the Stormfather is somewhat omnipresent, plus we have this bit. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1177#12

Quote

QUESTION

Question about the stormlight itself : a highstorm, full of stormlight, fills the spheres. Then, the KR use the stormlight or the stormlight evaporates with time. Question : where does the stormlight in highstorms come from ? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the stormlight ?

BRANDON SANDERSON

the stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

A perpendicularity is a point where the investiture pours from the Spiritual, through the Cognitive and manifests in the physical, which is essentially what the Stormfather is doing, and due to The merging of Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow he can be somewhat present even in places that the storm is not. 

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1163#7

Quote

QUESTION

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

The only problem I see with this idea, is how did Jasnah reach a point to actually reach the perpendicularity? 

It obviously isn't omnipresent because she had to travel to reach it, but if the Stormfather is omnipresent, then the perpendicularity could manifest literally anywhere. So there has to be something more to it that we don't understand. 

[Pattern]

54 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It obviously isn't omnipresent because she had to travel to reach it, but if the Stormfather is omnipresent, then the perpendicularity could manifest literally anywhere. So there has to be something more to it that we don't understand. 

I understand the WoB that the Stormfather is omnipresent for Dalinar to use his surgebinding and does not have to be near him like a normal spren would. That does not mean that he can create the perpendicularity just everywhere. Jasnah still has to find a right place.

So essentially the Stormfather has some off-time to galivant around while the Highstorm is over water and has no spheres to infuse - and during the weeping. Otherwise Roshar would get anomalous highstorms without stormlight deposits and a resulting panic amongst scholars and surgebinders ;-)